User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

Pushback Query

Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:32 pm



Shouldn't the Ground Headset be connected at all times.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Pushback Query

Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:45 pm

Hand signals are commonly used at many airports when headsets are not available to ground personnel.
Yes, large jet aircraft as well.
Especially overseas.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:25 pm

Out here If Available.There should be constan communication between Cockpit,Ground & Pushback operator during Push.Also Engine start on Grd should have a person on the headset.
In the Video.The Guy on the Headset actually Disconnects the Grd headset prior to Pushback.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Lucky42
Posts: 297
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2006 5:20 am

RE: Pushback Query

Thu Mar 08, 2007 3:28 pm

Yeah that was kinda strange...to disconnect the headset. Yes you can use hand signals...but it would be easier to keep headset connected to tell the crew to set brakes etc... We always kept in touch with the crew during pushback.
 
ZKNZA
Posts: 46
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:10 am

RE: Pushback Query

Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:30 pm

At NZ ,733 pushback procedure is to disconnect only after the plane has been pushed back, engines started with no probs, powerpush disconnected and pilot is happy.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:28 pm

Quoting ZKNZA (Reply 4):
At NZ ,733 pushback procedure is to disconnect only after the plane has been pushed back, engines started with no probs, powerpush disconnected and pilot is happy

Given the option available I found it strange that Engines were started during pushback with no one connected to the Flight deck.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
WestJetForLife
Posts: 704
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:37 am

RE: Pushback Query

Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:44 pm

Mel, I once did a ramp tour with my Air Cadet corps at YYC. We got to see a 737-700 get pushed off out of D-concourse here.

The GRD headset was removed prior to pushback, since they needed to get that airplane off ASAP.

The most probable reason for disconnecting the GRD mike was time constraints for getting the plane off as close to departure as possible. WS ground crews do that sometimes so that way they can get the plane on the taxiway as soon as possible.

Thanks, and if any WS ground crews wish to correct or change anything, please do so.
Nik
I need a drink.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:08 pm

Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 6):
The most probable reason for disconnecting the GRD mike was time constraints for getting the plane off as close to departure as possible

That could be the reason.But Delays should never compromise on Safety.During the Time of Headset Disconnection to completion of Engine Start,there could be an urgent need to communicate verbally.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
airtran737
Posts: 3217
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: Pushback Query

Sat Mar 10, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 6):
The most probable reason for disconnecting the GRD mike was time constraints for getting the plane off as close to departure as possible. WS ground crews do that sometimes so that way they can get the plane on the taxiway as soon as possible.

It literally takes two seconds to pull the headset and close the panel. Once the wheels roll and the ACARS kick in time really isn't an issue anymore. The only time where it would be an issue is if you were heading to an airport that has been ATC slotted due to weather issues and you only had a few minutes to make your slot.

Quoting HAWK21M (Thread starter):
Shouldn't the Ground Headset be connected at all times.

Using hand signals is very common, the tug driver has to make sure that he has constant visual contact with the captain. I can't count how many pushbacks I have done at FL without a headset. Our procedure requires that the pushback driver talks face to face with the captain prior to departure. During that face to face we discuss if there are any turns, hazards ect. during the push. Most of the time it is a much simpler conversation.

Me: "Hey Cap, our headset is inop, and special requests?"
Cap: "Nope, we'll use standard hand signals on the way out>"
ME: "Sounds good, blink the light if there's a problem, I'll set the brake and come talk to you."
Cap: "Great, thanks for coming up and talking to us, most people don't do it. Try not to hit anything on the way out."
Me: "I can try, but I won't guarantee anything. You're clear to spin them as soon as we roll. Later guys"

Simple as that. He gives me a double fisted "brakes released" and mimic him, and spin my fingers to let him know he can light the burners. Safe, simple and effective.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
ExPanAmer
Posts: 36
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 10:06 am

RE: Pushback Query

Sun Mar 11, 2007 12:49 am

When I worked at the Worldport, we normally used headsets.Of course, there were times one was not available, there were times the cords would be disconnected during the pushback due to too much slack and getting caught in something(guess!).The circumstance I remember most for not using a headset was when there was a possibility of lightning strikes. The headset wearer would be the shortest, least resistance path to ground!
 
G4LASRamper
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:35 am

RE: Pushback Query

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:59 am

We normally use headsets for the push, but can and do revert to hand signals if a headset doesn't work or isn't available. Our normal push is to start #2 during the push, then start #1 while disconnecting the towbar after the push is completed and the brakes are set (our pushbacks can't push against the idle thrust of two engines running). If a headset is being used we stay connected as long as the captain wants. In any case we watch both engines during start. I've been told we will see things like a fire well before there is a cockpit indication.
"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig." - Porco Rosso
 
copter808
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:19 am

Nobody seems to have mentioned he may have disconnected early because of the short cord. If he stumbles or otherwise fails to keep up with the pushback speed, he gets squished! My company requires headsets to be plugged in during push, but we frequently unplugged when we had a driver who tended to push fast.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 11):
Nobody seems to have mentioned he may have disconnected early because of the short cord

I agree. That headset is dangerous and should not be on a pushback.
I am waiting for a big accident with a headset cord getting wrapped around a nosewheel. Maybe then we can introduce cordless headsets.
When I do pushbacks, I always try and sit in the tractor. I feel it is dangerous to have to keep track of the nosewheels, towbar, tractor and headset lead, and look where you are going.
SAS have a system where they have a one man pushback. The driver has the headset, the lead is built into the towbar, and he is on his own. Good idea. I have watched them in CPH and OSL and it works well. (We don't need wingwalkers in Europe as the stands are big enough!
 
G4LASRamper
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 19, 2006 2:35 am

RE: Pushback Query

Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:26 am

With us, the push driver wears the headset too. We require two wing walkers though - the MD-83 sits so low to the ground that the driver doesn't have a good view around the aircraft. I envy those that get to push "tall" aircraft - they can easily see where they're going.
"A pig that doesn't fly is just a pig." - Porco Rosso
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:15 pm

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
Using hand signals is very common

True.But when the Headset option is available.It should be used.

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 8):
I'll set the brake and come talk to you."

Any abnormal situation should be discussed between Crew & Mx before commencing.It helps.

Quoting G4LASRamper (Reply 10):
our pushbacks can't push against the idle thrust of two engines running

What HP Pushback truck ae you using.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
TERRA
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 2:37 am

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:48 am

Odd

The headset does not cause a time delay and should always be used if available. However that lead is definitely too short to be used.

I was more worried to see that the guys were doing horseplay in the cab, what's all that about? I'm concerned that you see the passenger put his foot on the throttle.......................

I might send this video to my buddies at Globe Ground.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:50 am

Give me hand signals any day of the week.

Example.
JED, apron 6.
Ready to start and pushback.
Ground says cleared for start and push.
I turn on the rotating beacon, and attempt to communicate with the ground personnel.

No reply.
Try again.
This time he answers and I say...'brakes off, cleared for pushback, turning engine two.
Nothing from the ground personnel.
Out to lunch perhaps?
So, hand signals are used, and all goes smoothly.

Case closed.
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:14 am

Yes hand signals are great until it all goes wrong.
What is the hand signal for.. The shear pins just broke, please put the brakes on before you hit the tug...?
Or, there are flames shooting out of engine 2..

I am sure someone will find an ICAO hand signal for these, but will the guy on the ramp remember them? I work on the ramp every day and I don't know.

The problem with pushbacks and start ups is that they so rarely go wrong that we forget what to do.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:41 am

In forty years+ of flying, TriStar Steve, hand signals have NEVER failed.

No complaints from this end...absolutely.

Now some might disagree..that's OK too.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:33 am

Quoting 411A (Reply 16):
This time he answers and I say...'brakes off, cleared for pushback, turning engine two.
Nothing from the ground personnel.
Out to lunch perhaps?
So, hand signals are used, and all goes smoothly.

With no response How would you know if #2 was clear.Did you get a visual OK.

Quoting 411A (Reply 18):
In forty years+ of flying, TriStar Steve, hand signals have NEVER failed.

Hand Signals are reliable but cover only certain commands not all abnormalaties.Also there is always some T/D involved.If Audio is available it should be priority.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:12 pm

Yes Hawk, hand signals received OK for starting number two.
Besides, if someone IS in the way, they will find out soon enough.
Then there are the folks on the ground headset that constantly want the blocks off time, nearly to the exclusion of everything else.

If they want to know, they should look at their wristwatch.

Now, having said this, the very best ground communications I've had are in Japan.
Very precise and courteous.
Many could learn from these folks about how to do pushback communications properly.
 
nonfirm
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:04 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:31 pm

We require our ground staff to wear the headset at all times.If the headset is inop the A/C will wait until a serviceable headset is brought to the A/C.Also the alley way where the push occures is a tail out all the time and the ramp control is know for altering push instructions not to mention the temporary wall that is in place on the ramp around the construction.It makes for a tight condition with wings close to the wall.Our pilot's also perfer the communication with the tug crew.  airplane 
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 12, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 20):
Now, having said this, the very best ground communications I've had are in Japan.
Very precise and courteous.
Many could learn from these folks about how to do pushback communications properly

Any Examples.

Out here Headset is Mandatory if provision exists.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
JayDub
Posts: 359
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:14 am

RE: Pushback Query

Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:33 am

Hand signals have never failed me. As AirTran737 said...as long as the signal man has a face to face with the captain and confirm that they both know the signals, handsignals work everytime.

To be quite honest...headset communications were primarily discussing the attractiveness of the F/A's and where to get a cold beer when they got back to Dallas.

We did require a headset for "Advanced Manuevers"...such as pushing out less than one minute prior to Delta and deliberately turning tail north instead of south in order to block them in the gate and cause them to take a D-Zero hit....or pushing out 30 seconds AFTER Delta and putting our tail in their nose just to piss them off a little by making them wait to taxi. A DL 767 Captain once gave us the finger for that.

(The more pushback stories I tell on A.net...the more I realized we were cocky jerks out there. Yet we were so good at it. ) Big grin
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Pushback Query

Tue Mar 13, 2007 5:22 am

Yes, Hawk, I can give you an example.
At every airport I been in Japan, the use of a standard format is mandated, for ground communications.
No idle chit-chat, just down to business.
The reason for this, is the sometimes limited command of the English language that a few ground personnel might have.
Say, for example, a Japanese ground crew member communicating with a Bangladeshi Captain, in a language that is not especially native to either.
So, very precise and direct terms are used, in a standard format, that both understand.
It works like a charm, and indded the best ground communications I have experienced have been in FUK/NRT etc.
Second best?
ZRH/AMS/FRA.

LHR?
A distant third, oddly enough.
 
JayDub
Posts: 359
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 4:14 am

RE: Pushback Query

Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:51 am

Upon finally watching the video (it was blocked from viewing at work)....there was absolutely NOTHING wrong with the way this ground crew conducted this push. What you didn't see was the signalman walking alongside the left of the cab of the tractor...verbal communication is almost never required. There are tons of hand signals for just about any kind of situation that will come up on a push. Emergency stops, engine fires, etc.

Seriously, some of the Armchair Ramp Safety Patrol here on A.net need to work a day on the ramp before making the decisions about what is and is not safe.  banghead 
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:52 pm

Quoting JayDub (Reply 25):
What you didn't see was the signalman walking alongside the left of the cab of the tractor...verbal communication is almost never required

No one is Disputing that Visual signals are not used.But the Debate is IF Audio communication is present should it be negated.For a Visual Emergency stop to be conveyed it would mean that the Pushback operator/Pilot would need to constantly look at the person concerned on the ramp.This can have a T/D in an Emergency.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Pushback Query

Tue Mar 13, 2007 11:33 pm

Folks that have their entire aviation experience in only one company (or country) usually do not appreciate the many different ways that operations are conducted elsewhere....nearly always with complete safety.

Therefore, some of these folks have no appreciation for others operations, and might indeed consider them somehow 'improper' or 'unsafe' or 'not practical'.

Keep in mind that at many airports worldwide, hand signals are used extensively by ground and flight crews, without any problems.
Both pilots and ground crews have a complete understanding of the various signals required, something that may well not be apparent to those that hardly ever have the opportunity.
 
TERRA
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 2:37 am

RE: Pushback Query

Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:36 pm

It also depends on aircraft type, hand signals on a commuter jet can be practical where as it's not for a B747.

However again if a headset if available it should be the first choice. But if not available hand signals are fine. This is the case when their are electrical storms within 5 kms of the airport when you most certainly won't use a headset.

Going back to my armchair now.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 27):
Keep in mind that at many airports worldwide, hand signals are used extensively by ground and flight crews, without any problems.

Agreed.The debate was on which was preffered given a choice.

Quoting TERRA (Reply 28):
However again if a headset if available it should be the first choice. But if not available hand signals are fine.

 bigthumbsup 

Exactly.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
copter808
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:31 pm

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 17):
Or, there are flames shooting out of engine 2..

When resorting to hand signals, I always told the captain, "If you see me running, you might want to shut down and evacuate!"

If given a choice, The headset (or some other form of direct voice communication) is always better.

What is/are the hand signals for:
Engine fire--keep it turning, the fire is internal to the engine.
Engine fire--external, flames everywhere.
APU fire--small fire visible
Big fire--entire back of the aircraft in flames!!
or:
Stop--panic stop, you need to stop NOW! (not 5 feet from now)
Stop--slowly, there's another aircraft pushing behind you that be a problem.

(I don't need descriptions of the signals, just that I'm not aware of 6 different hand signals to cover the above.)

There has never been a question in my mind which type of communication is superior. I'll go for the headset every time!!
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Pushback Query

Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:26 am

Hmmm, it is clear that many armchair experts here have never fully understood the proper use of hand signals, nor their application or perhaps indeed the various signals available.
Now, at many foreign airports, headsets are many times available, yet hand signals are used in preference.
Why?
Simply because that is what the ground personnel are used to, and for these folks to suddenly have a headset thrust at them, is confusing and counter productive, in most cases.

Many times I have found at what some might call under-developed airports, that hand signals are far superior, due to language difficulties.
IE: The ground crew cannot easily understand me, the Captain, and in turn, I cannot understand them...yet we BOTH know internationally recognised hand signals.

Hand signals in these cases are FAR superior, even if headsets are available.
 
copter808
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:38 am

Agreed 411A, and I was going to mention that sometimes in situations where different languages are an issue hand signals might work well--but I didn't!

However, might it still work better if we still used the heaadset with a limited vocabularly? One easily understood by both parties? Having had the luxury of working at an airport where English was commonly used and understood, I'll have to defer that answer to you.

However, in the situations I have been in (english-to-english), I'll opt for the headset every time.
 
TERRA
Posts: 208
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 2:37 am

RE: Pushback Query

Sat Mar 17, 2007 1:36 am

Sadly the PIC is not always gazing out the window during pushback to see the guy on the ground waving his arms in the air no matter what the signal might be. This is an issue in an emergency.

The is also the case of low light, when signals might be misinterpreted and also there might be a non standard request from the crew to ground which might be difficult through the confines of a cockpit window. Some of these are simple, what's the signal for "i have a tech problem, stop the pushback and take me back to stand"? Takes 5 seconds to say but via hand signals anyone's guess. Or another example, "I have a door warning light come on can you check the forward lower hold door please?". Takes 5 seconds to say and everyone understands from the start. But what's the hand signal for that? There's lots of finger pointing and "Hey............. what did you say............., open the cockpit window so i know what you want me to do.............................." etc etc.

As for languages, English is the standard language of aviation and ramp agents "should" speak it as per IATA. Poor recruitment on behalf of an airline or handling agent doesn't negate the need to have an agent using a headset. This would be in many SLAs from the airlines asking for such. An example, Lufthansa require headset upon arrival and departure. Are some of the more unprofessional companies going to tell LH sorry no can do because our agents don't speak English or German. I don't think so because they won't get the contract.

Now if your towing a dead aircraft with a brakeman on board handsignals will probably get used but during normal handling within the commercial airlines industry most airlines will prefer for a headset to be used during T.I.P.O operations. The airlines will however publish hand signals to be used when headest is not being used.

I find that handsignals also get misinterpreted and staff don't always use those that are internationally recognized. As an example many people i come across think the signal for stop during pushback is a clenched fist when it isn't and many can't remember the signal for emergency stop.

Anyway after all that I need to go back to my armchair and sit down and put my feet up for a bit. Feet that have wondered around the world instructing pushback, headsets and hand signals for over 10 years. Don't do i t much now though, i'm an ramp safety auditor instead. Sometimes i get to audit hand signals too, that's if the handling agents can't be bothered to use headset!!!
 
Steelyman
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:40 am

RE: Pushback Query

Sat Mar 17, 2007 3:40 am

In small jet aircrafts (like 737) hand signals are ok on both start-up procedures and push-back procedures. I think this is more how you like communication between you and the pilot than other reasons, as it was said before, there are lots and lots of signals that mean different things so they can if in each and every situation. In our Servisair procedure's book we have more than 10 pages of hand signals so as you can imagine it's not a safety reason...

IMO it's better the headset, as it's more easier to get into further details if you can talk directly to the cockpit crew... I guess that as there are many ramp workers that don't know all signals, there are even more pilots that don't know the signals... I can hardly imagine that a pilot that speaks that mix of English with another language know the "I am not allowed to take off if that light that I have above my head is flashing but I don't have any idea of what means" signal...

So... easier for me to do push-backs with headset.
BRGDS, Mike
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting 411A (Reply 31):
Many times I have found at what some might call under-developed airports, that hand signals are far superior, due to language difficulties.
IE: The ground crew cannot easily understand me, the Captain, and in turn, I cannot understand them...yet we BOTH know internationally recognised hand signals.

Although I fully agree with you I have to admit that there are "language" difficulties with hand signals as well.
An example:
Some 2 years ago we received an Saab Viggen at the Dutch aviation theme park Aviodrome.
For the occasion an official marshaller from the Dutch air Force was brought in to make sure everything went smooth.
So the Viggen followed a "follow me" vehicle" until it entered our platform where it was taken over by the marshaller who started to signal his instructions in order to get it on the right parking spot, this included a 180° turn.
I'll never forget his face when he noticed that the Viggen turned the other way and almost left the platform.
Many frantic signals later the Viggen was parked....... well sort off.... I caught the next conversation between the pilot and the marshaller:
MRSH: why did you go the other way ?
PIL: i did not understand you.
MRSH: what ?....... I used the official NATO hand signals !
PIL: that's awesome............ I am not from a NATO country.
 rotfl 
ICAO lingo differs from NATO with differs from other independent countries and so on.

Being involved with mainly old aircraft we use both at the same time.
Starting a Constellation takes a bit more then the standard communication and the flight engineer who is at the controls can't see a damned thing anyway.
So the radio is used for comm between ground and flightcrew and at the same I will relay the info with hand signals to the people around me to ensure safe operation.

Still I think everybody working in close proximity of A/C should at least know the basic signals and this includes flight crew.
Working on a particular airshow last year I was marshaling aircraft to their stand on the static ramp most of them tail draggers.
With those tail draggers it is common practice to step a little sideways rather then being in front to establish visual contact with the pilot.
The closer they come the more sideways you have to go to maintain eye contact.
It was quite striking to see that only a few pilots understood hand signalling, most of them followed me instead of the signals given.

For those not familiar with hand signals:
Big version: Width: 660 Height: 1011 File size: 125kb
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Sat Mar 17, 2007 5:24 pm

Talking about the Signal chart.What about the stop sign at Night.How is it out there.Do you use the Cross with the Marshalling torches or the wave crossing as depicted.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
SB
Posts: 152
Joined: Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:29 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:06 pm

My experience is that the (usually frantic) wave crossing is more of an emergency stop than the regular slow-down-to-a-stop which is signaled by bringing both arms/torches up slowly to form an X.

The aircraft I push are too old to have headsets, so hand signals (some quite inventive) are used. I do have a handled plugged into my headset on the company freq in case communication is necessary.

S.
"Confirm leave the hold and maintain 320kts?!"
 
aviopic
Posts: 2423
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 7:52 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 36):
Do you use the Cross with the Marshalling torches or the wave crossing as depicted.

Personally I always use the X signal for stop, light, dark, torch or no torch as I think the Brake signal is a bit vague and everybody understand the Cross.
I guess it's no problem while guiding little Cessna's etc but with the old Buggers especially tail draggers like the DC2 and 3 you need quite some distance between you and the aircraft to make your self visible to the flight crew who then might not be able to see the little Brake hand signal.

Quoting SB (Reply 37):
so hand signals (some quite inventive) are used

Don't we all have a set of our own Big grin
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Sun Mar 18, 2007 1:05 pm

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 38):

With due course most Airports upgrading to the Automatic Parking systems,so the frequency of Marshalling will def drop.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
copter808
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting TERRA (Reply 33):
There's lots of finger pointing and "Hey............. what did you say............., open the cockpit window so i know what you want me to do.............................." etc etc.

Been there, done that! A lot like a comedy at times.

Another point. If something goes wrong, how do you answer the question; "Might it have not occurred if you had been using a headset?"


Quoting Steelyman (Reply 34):
we have more than 10 pages of hand signals so as you can imagine it's not a safety reason...

And how many of those hand signals can you recall instantly, under the pressure of a developing emergency? Even if you can easily recall them, how about the pilot? Other crew members?

Best is to be able to use BOTH hand signals and voice--if one fails, you can try the other! This only works if you ARE using a headset (or shout V-E-R-Y loudly!)

If all else fails, make your hasty exit from the area very visible and maybe they w
 
copter808
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:39 am

the end got left off...

If all else fails, make your hasty exit from the area very visible and maybe they will get the idea!
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Topic Author
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Pushback Query

Mon Mar 19, 2007 4:24 pm

Quoting Copter808 (Reply 40):
Best is to be able to use BOTH hand signals and voice--if one fails, you can try the other! This only works if you ARE using a headset (or shout V-E-R-Y loudly

Might not work when you have Powerplants operating on Large Aircraft  Smile

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], CARST, Dogbreath and 19 guests