GAIsweetGAI
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Stol Twin Props

Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:04 pm

Apart from the DHC-6 and the Dash 8, what twin prop A/C have STOL capabilities?

Also, since I may be interested in buying a Twin Otter in the future:
What approximate price do they sell for? (I am sure there are other parameters, but since I do not know them, I will not define any)
(Where) is it possible to receive instruction on the A/C type?
"There is an art, or rather a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
L-188
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:19 pm

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Thread starter):
Apart from the DHC-6 and the Dash 8, what twin prop A/C have STOL capabilities?

Define STOL for us.

The reason I ask is that I used to dispatch Metro's out of 3500 foot strips, and they aren't known for their stol capabilities.

But besides the Trotter, I would think about finding Donier 228's, Norman-Brittan Islanders, Yak-28's,
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lowrider
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:03 pm

The Casa 212's do a decent job. As does the SC-7 Skyvan. Apart from what L-188 mentioned those are the only additional aircraft that spring to mind. Depending on your requirements, a King Air of some sort might do, as might a Cessna F406. Britten Norman has an aircraft in the works called the Defender, which uses the Trilander wing and fuselage with a couple of RR turboprops.
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L-188
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:31 pm

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 2):
The Casa 212's do a decent job. As does the SC-7 Skyvan.

DO'H!!!

I used to work for a company that had a Casa 212 and I totally spaced mentioning that type.

Can you live with a piston, because of the money of some of these types you should be able to pick up a DC-3.
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KELPkid
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:08 pm

Well, there's always the Angel...

Big version: Width: 640 Height: 420 File size: 31kb


From http://www.angelaircraft.com/  Smile
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lowrider
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:09 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
Can you live with a piston,

Don't have to live with a piston, those Basler DC-3 conversions look pretty nice. A Convair 580 might fit the bill, too. It just depends on the mission requirements.
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Dufo
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:55 am

I've landed a near-full L-410 using less than 200m of runway 21 @ EGNS earlier this week. And took off using a tad bit more a few minutes later  Big grin
I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
2H4
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:02 am




Quoting Dufo (Reply 6):
I've landed a near-full L-410 using less than 200m of runway 21 @ EGNS earlier this week. And took off using a tad bit more a few minutes later

You, sir, need a video camera....or at least a digital camera capable of recording such coolness....  yes 

2H4


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T prop
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Thread starter):
Also, since I may be interested in buying a Twin Otter in the future:
What approximate price do they sell for?

Brand new about 3.2 million. That's for a new 400 series with -34 engines, -35's and 4 blade props are options.

http://www.vikingair.com/content2.aspx?id=276

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Thread starter):
(Where) is it possible to receive instruction on the A/C type?

Flight Safety International in Canada. They list training for the Otter under regional airline.

http://www.flightsafety.com/searchresults3.php?home=my


T prop
 
PILOTALLEN
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:01 am

screw the twin get a PC12 ahaha.....on the twin otter note though some company (cant recall who) bought the rights to reproduce the Twotter...should be cool...strap some floats on and you've got a real plane! but speaking of STOL where exactly do you plan on flying one? when it comes to price unless you are flying in alaska or any place with some terrain its not that useful...I guess you could do freight that would be cool but you could do freight for cheaper in a faster plane...just a weird thought comming from a pilot in the bush ha. the Twin Otters are expenseive i think those new ones are going to go for something in the 2mil range....I flew one around PA a few months back that was for sale for somethign like 800k and it was a POS....anyway good luck!
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vzlet
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
Yak-28's


???
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GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 4:46 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
Define STOL for us.

Capable of operating off a 2800ft paved runway is all I need. Good point though.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
Can you live with a piston

Any A/C with two propeller sets is fine.

Quoting PILOTALLEN (Reply 9):
screw the twin get a PC12

I thought about that. But the PC12 becomes useless when I'm at 1500ft on a 5 mile final over water and an engine fails, whereas theoretically the Twin Otter's other engine should be able to bring me to the runway.

Quoting PILOTALLEN (Reply 9):
where exactly do you plan on flying one?

I was thinking of Europe, Norway is where I would need STOL capabilities.
"There is an art, or rather a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting T prop (Reply 8):

Thanks a lot.  Smile
Brand new would indeed be interesting, I didn't know they were back in production.
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2H4
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:05 am




Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Reply 11):
when I'm at 1500ft on a 5 mile final over water and an engine fails, whereas theoretically the Twin Otter's other engine should be able to bring me to the runway.

...Or to the scene of the crash, depending on whether you're observing Vmc or flying the published STOL numbers.  Wink


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L-188
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Vzlet (Reply 10):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
Yak-28's

Damm that is twice I screw up in 1 thread!!!!

That would be an AN-28.


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KELPkid
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 13):
...Or to the scene of the crash, depending on whether you're observing Vmc or flying the published STOL numbers.

Any Twotters been lost in Vmc accidents? I suppose it's possible since they are nowadays popular as a skydiving aircraft...
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2H4
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 5:50 am




Quoting KELPkid (Reply 15):

Any Twotters been lost in Vmc accidents? I suppose it's possible since they are nowadays popular as a skydiving aircraft...

Actually, browsing through NTSB reports back to the early seventies, there appears to be only one fatal accident that might be attributed to Vmc. It occured last year in Missouri. The vast majority involve either VFR flight into IFR conditions or people walking into the props.


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A342
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:12 am

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Reply 11):

Maybe you could go a bit more into detail ? What do you intend to carry, pax or cargo, and how many / much ? How long would the flights be, do you need a pressurized aircraft ?

BTW, if you want to fly in Europe, IMO you should chose an aircraft that uses jet fuel. Avgas prices are horrible on this side of the pond.
But it also depends on how often you fly, aircraft with gas engines are cheaper.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
PILOTALLEN
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:14 am

yeah the other engine is always a plus, heres something to think about...one big problem you'll run into with the otter would be parts, especially in europe. however if you have something thats eruropean built you could easily get parts...just a thought...and i am in no way connected to Pilatus haha, just in case someone thought it was a plug...on the meantime being at 1500ft 5 miles out wouldn't be good in most planes....although you are right with that extra engine...in some ways....I always like carrying speed in the PC12 when low especially when low for that matter.....but again it is a PT-6 and its pretty strong....oh well
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2H4
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 7:32 am




Quoting PILOTALLEN (Reply 18):
I always like carrying speed in the PC12 when low

What's the lowest Vref speed you typically see in the PC-12?


2H4


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PILOTALLEN
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:32 am

80 over the fence....somewheres in that range, I personally have always flown it a little on the fast side...but typically come in between 120-110 and slow it up once im sure ive made the runway with the full 40 flaps...does a good job. in ground effect it will still fly along around 70 kts...a bit mushy but Ive managed to get it in there alright
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GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 17):
Maybe you could go a bit more into detail ? What do you intend to carry, pax or cargo, and how many / much ? How long would the flights be, do you need a pressurized aircraft ?

This A/C would be primarily for my own usage, unless someone or some people ask(s) me to fly them somewhere, in which case I would limit the payload to the A/C's specs. In any case, I would carry pax rather than cargo.

The flight would be as long as it needs to be- I have no objection to a tech stop/stopover if the flight gets too long.

I have no particular need for a pressurized A/C, so I would perhaps go with an unpressurized one to keep mx cost down.
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PILOTALLEN
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:11 am

heck flyin around the mountains, buy a super cub with tundra tires 36" ! or the new cub crafters top cub with an 1100lb useful load....cant beat that! or better yeah a beaver or turbin otter mmmmmmm.
Thats not flying, thats falling with style -Woody
 
lowrider
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:00 am

Have you considered any of Partenavia's aircraft, like the P68? That sounds like it might fit your bill.
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GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:06 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 23):
Have you considered any of Partenavia's aircraft, like the P68? That sounds like it might fit your bill.

This A/C looks interesting indeed. How much would it cost, and does it have STOL characteristics? (I saw nothing on this last part)
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ZBBYLW
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:32 am

So let me get this right, you just want to fly around Europe for the fun of it in a Twotter, Damn! Hope you have tons of fun, lots of pictures and send them to us on a.net, I am getting my CPL right now and if I do not get accepted into the military I hope to fly around in the Twotters for Borek, preferably in the Maldives for a while, we will see. Anyways have fun.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:06 am

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 25):
Hope you have tons of fun, lots of pictures and send them to us on a.net

Definitely, as often as I can. (I could say your wish is my command, but I'm not sure that fits right...)
And I think you got the essence of it right.
"There is an art, or rather a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
lowrider
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:31 am

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Reply 24):
and does it have STOL characteristics?

They advertise a 400m run to clear a 50 foot obstacle and a 57 knot stall speed. While it may not set any records, its not bad for a six place twin. Plus the high wing will help with ground clearance and prop strikes, and the simple fixed gear will help with unpaved runways. I have seen new ones for sale for around $700,000 USD.

EDIT: I did find some used examples for prices ranging between $200,000 and $300,000 USD. All were from the mid 1980's and appeared in reasonable shape at first glance.

[Edited 2007-03-11 04:42:58]
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lowrider
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:44 am

Of course, if you need something a little larger, I don't think you can go wrong with a BN-2 Islander. That is definately a STOL light twin.
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avt007
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:14 am

Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 25):
So let me get this right, you just want to fly around Europe for the fun of it in a Twotter,

Most 16-20 year olds dream of having a nice car, not a Twin Otter. Go big or go home, eh?
 
GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 29):

I've never had any interest in cars, as far as I can remember. The only reason I want a car (no matter how nice) and a driver's license is so that I can drive myself to the local airfield and go flying.  Silly
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A342
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Mon Mar 12, 2007 4:54 am

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Reply 21):
This A/C would be primarily for my own usage, unless someone or some people ask(s) me to fly them somewhere, in which case I would limit the payload to the A/C's specs. In any case, I would carry pax rather than cargo.

The flight would be as long as it needs to be- I have no objection to a tech stop/stopover if the flight gets too long.

I have no particular need for a pressurized A/C, so I would perhaps go with an unpressurized one to keep mx cost down.

Get a brand new Diamond DA42 TDI Twin Star. It offers the performance you need while keeping fuel cost down.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
atct
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:24 am

There is also the DHC-4/5 Caribou and Buffalo's. These are larger than the Twotter, but radial engine driven vs. turboprop.

The DHC-7 is also a spectaculiar multi-engine STOL aircraft.

I can also think of a two seat Aeronca twin named something like the Lancer or similiar. I cant remember the type designator off hand.



ATCT
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A342
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Wed Mar 14, 2007 1:56 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 32):
There is also the DHC-4/5 Caribou and Buffalo's. These are larger than the Twotter, but radial engine driven vs. turboprop.

The DHC-5 Buffalo has GE T64 turboprops.

But I think these aircraft are way too big for the requirement.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
2H4
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Wed Mar 14, 2007 2:04 am




Quoting ATCT (Reply 32):
I can also think of a two seat Aeronca twin named something like the Lancer or similiar. I cant remember the type designator off hand.

The Champion 402 Lancer:


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GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:19 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 33):
But I think these aircraft are way too big for the requirement.

As long as the A/C is STOL, I'll look into it.
(However, I'm not familiar with the DHC-4/5.)

And thanks for all the suggestions everyone.  Smile
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WrenchBender
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Wed Mar 14, 2007 11:02 pm

http://www.dhc4and5.org
Info on the Caribou and Buffalo

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avt007
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Thu Mar 15, 2007 5:53 am

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Thread starter):
Apart from the DHC-6 and the Dash 8, what twin prop A/C have STOL capabilities?

Not to be picky, (OK, I'm being picky!) but the Dash8 is not a STOL aircraft, as such. deHavilland does not make any such claim.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Thu Mar 15, 2007 6:58 am

A Dash 8 is not a true STOL aircraft. It can use some short strips, but it is not officially a STOL aircraft.

Good luck in getting a balanced field with only 2800 ft of runway with a Dash.
 
9VSIO
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:56 am

What about a tilt-rotor? Do they count?
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GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Thu Mar 15, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting 9VSIO (Reply 39):
What about a tilt-rotor? Do they count?

Maybe not as true STOL aircraft, but I'll look into them by all means.

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 38):
Good luck in getting a balanced field with only 2800 ft of runway with a Dash

'Tis quite possible:
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...deroe_Aviation_Video-4053.html?s=y

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 37):
the Dash8 is not a STOL aircraft, as such. deHavilland does not make any such claim.



Quoting DashTrash (Reply 38):
A Dash 8 is not a true STOL aircraft.

I didn't know that, thanks.
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T prop
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:45 am

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Reply 40):
'Tis quite possible:

Not a STOL airplane but the Dash 8 will outperform others in its class easily when it comes to short field performance.
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bond007
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:14 am

Sorry, but I still don't understand the mission requirements ??

If it's just for your OWN flying, around Europe, off short strips, with little or no cargo, than why would you go for a Twin Otter, or similar ....?? Especially unpressurized. It's obviously not for speed, or cargo/pax ... or necessarily 'short' strips. I could name a ton of GA aircraft that could get off the ground in 2800ft and cost ten times less to buy and to maintain.

If you want a twin for perceived 'safety' , there's plenty of them around too, Barons, Aztecs, ...etc.etc. etc.

Now, tell us you like Twin Otters, and that's the reason ... that's fine. But the Twin Otter or other 'STOL' aircraft is not the ideal aircraft for the requirements you given us so far  Wink

Jimbo
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PlymSpotter
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:02 pm

If you are really serious about doing something like this, then you could perhaps consider the An-2. There are still a lot about and are relatively cheap to pick up, and whilst they are simple machines, they are amazingly durable. They have a stall speed of something like 40knots, and there's enough room down the back for several friends or family.


Dan Smile
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abletofly
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:56 pm

Don't have to forget the King Air B200 with Short Field Performance kits fitted.
Air Greenland has one, and it does it's job real good.  Smile

Regards.
 
SCAT15F
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:47 pm

The Shorts.
 
GAIsweetGAI
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:35 am

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 42):
If it's just for your OWN flying, around Europe, off short strips, with little or no cargo, than why would you go for a Twin Otter, or similar ....?? Especially unpressurized. It's obviously not for speed, or cargo/pax ... or necessarily 'short' strips. I could name a ton of GA aircraft that could get off the ground in 2800ft and cost ten times less to buy and to maintain.

Indeed this is what I'm thinking of.
I only went for the Twotter due to my... ignorance in this field.  Wink
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KELPkid
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting SCAT15F (Reply 45):
The Shorts.

Isn't that the one that flies by vacuum (it's so ugly that the air is repulsed and gets out of the way)  duck 
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BOE773
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:24 am

Here is another great STOL performer.
I saw it at Oshkosh and was very impressed.

http://www.sherpaaircraft.com/
 
DashTrash
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RE: Stol Twin Props

Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:16 am

Quoting GAIsweetGAI (Reply 40):
'Tis quite possible:
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...l?s=y

Wasn't saying you can't get the airplane off a strip that short. I was saying you will not have a balanced field in doing so.

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