SansVGs
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Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:02 am

Does anyone know if there has ever been an accident in a jet due to icing? I am not talking about contamination accidents on take-off (or shortly after), but rather while actually in flight. Thanks.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:05 am

Interesting question. I think you will find that these are rather rare since at modern cruising altitudes icing is not very likely. The air is too cold to hold any significant moisture.
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WrenchBender
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:15 am

The 1994 American Eagle ATR 72 (Turbo-Prop) was directly attributable to inflight icing accumulation.
Descent thru icing conditions is more likely to cause accumulation than at cruising at altitude.

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SansVGs
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:49 am

Let me be more precise in my question: For only Jets in any phase of flight. But not including take off.

Here is why. I have done google searches, and found nothing, but a "maybe" involving a CL 600 on a go-around in Canada. Also two C560's had split-boot bridging issues ten or so years ago. I don't wish to jinx myself, but most jets seem to be immune from ice accidents...assuming they take off "clean."

Every plane picks up ice in a different way. And changing altitude by 4000 feet can usually get one out of the ice. The higher flight levels usually don't provide icing. But jets have to get up and down agian.


Thanks again if anyone can find some info.
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atct
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 3):
I don't wish to jinx myself, but most jets seem to be immune from ice accidents...

I think you mean jets with De-Icing and Anti-Ice systems.

I know the Dornier 328 Jet has Boots, while most "jet" aircraft are equipped with hot wings.

Anywho I cant think of any ice related accidents (probably some incidents out there) that are directly attributed to icing on board a jet aircraft while in cruise.

ATCT


Just found this...sorta interesting...
http://www.landings.com/evird.acgi$p...ar5-2007/Mn-48-ice-chunk-down.html

[Edited 2007-03-14 18:55:16]
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KELPkid
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 4):
I know the Dornier 328 Jet has Boots, while most "jet" aircraft are equipped with hot wings.

Transport category, perhaps. I can think of many bizjets I have re-fueled that were equipped with de-icing boots...
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airfoilsguy
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:33 am

727s had a problem where a leaky lav caused ice to build up and get sucked in to the engines casueing engine failure.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 6):
727s had a problem where a leaky lav caused ice to build up and get sucked in to the engines casueing engine failure.

Sometimes pretty dramatic failure  Wink


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A342
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
Quoting ATCT (Reply 4):
I know the Dornier 328 Jet has Boots, while most "jet" aircraft are equipped with hot wings.

Transport category, perhaps. I can think of many bizjets I have re-fueled that were equipped with de-icing boots...

Actually the Do 328 is used by airlines, additionally, there's the corporate / VIP version.
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KELPkid
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 4:03 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 8):
Actually the Do 328 is used by airlines, additionally, there's the corporate / VIP version.

That probably has more to do with the fact that the Do 328 Jet was based on the Do 328 turboprop...  Wink They probably still got their FIKI (flight into known icing) certification nonetheless.
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futureualpilot
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:47 am

Air Florida 92(flight no. ?) crashed due to ice I believe.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:13 pm

http://aviation-safety.net/database/dblist.php?Event=WXI
The Database has Icing causes listed.

regds
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Starlionblue
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:47 pm

Quoting Futureualpilot (Reply 10):
Air Florida 92(flight no. ?) crashed due to ice I believe.

That was during take-off.
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FredT
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:06 pm

There was a case where a jet (bizjet) scouting for icing conditions for icing certification trials of a prototype helicopter ended up crashing (gear up in field, no serious injuries IIRC) due to ice. The PIC was late in activating the anti-icing, so upper surface ice had formed. The anti-icing caused the ice to break loose and end up in the engines.

Rgds,
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SansVGs
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 15, 2007 10:05 pm

Hawk21M, Thanks for the list. Interesting reading. The only two on the list that came close to the criteria were the Sabreliner in PIT (They forgot the ENG ANTI-ICE) and the forgotten pitot heat in the 737-400.

FredT, Wow--what a story. One would think while out scouting for icing conditions that "ice" would be on the brain, and at least have the "ENG Anti-ICE" on.

[Edited 2007-03-15 15:08:52]
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A342
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 9):
That probably has more to do with the fact that the Do 328 Jet was based on the Do 328 turboprop...  wink  They probably still got their FIKI (flight into known icing) certification nonetheless.

I don't understand why they shouldn't have got it ?
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 16, 2007 4:38 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 15):
I don't understand why they shouldn't have got it ?

Well, the reason most transport category jets use hot wings instead of boots is because hot wings offer vastly superior ice protection...hot wings cannot be bridged  Smile
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A342
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:48 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 16):
hot wings cannot be bridged

What does "bridged" mean in this context ?
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TedTAce
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:00 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
That was during take-off.

It's still ice.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:28 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 18):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
That was during take-off.

It's still ice.

Yes it is, but if you recall, the thread starter said:

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 3):
Let me be more precise in my question: For only Jets in any phase of flight. But not including take off.
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:35 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
But not including take off.

Fair enough.
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FredT
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 17):
What does "bridged" mean in this context ?

It was previously taught to let ice form for a few minutes prior to activating the pneumatic boots. The philosophy was that if the layer of ice was too thin, it would bulge with the inflation of the boots rather than crack and break away, and thus form an ice bridge under which the boots could inflate and deflate without any further effect on the icing.

The philosophy these days, at least on the aircraft I'm around, seems to be to turn it all on at the first suspicion of icing and leave it on until well clear.

Rgds,
/Fred
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A342
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RE: Jets In Ice

Sat Mar 17, 2007 6:03 pm

Quoting FredT (Reply 21):
It was previously taught to let ice form for a few minutes prior to activating the pneumatic boots. The philosophy was that if the layer of ice was too thin, it would bulge with the inflation of the boots rather than crack and break away, and thus form an ice bridge under which the boots could inflate and deflate without any further effect on the icing.

Ok, thanks.
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futureatp
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RE: Jets In Ice

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:36 am

I vaugely remember a story that fits. I remember reading about a 727 that had its pitot static-system ice up in flight and (no pun intended) froze the airspeed indicator at a speed higher than desired. The crew ended up stalling the aircraft cause they did not realize that the pitot-static heat(unable to recall proper terminology) failed or simply forgot to activate it.

That is all i can remember. Im sure it happend in the US and may not have been a passenger flight or even a pt 121 or 135 flight. Im too lazy to dig up my aviation disaster books out of storage Smile
 
SansVGs
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:01 pm

i have heard both sides of the bridging argument. I think some people just like to let ice build up on booted planes so they can watch it blow off when they activate the system.
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OPNLguy
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting Futureatp (Reply 23):
I vaugely remember a story that fits. I remember reading about a 727 that had its pitot static-system ice up in flight and (no pun intended) froze the airspeed indicator at a speed higher than desired. The crew ended up stalling the aircraft cause they did not realize that the pitot-static heat(unable to recall proper terminology) failed or simply forgot to activate it.

That was a NWA 727 on Dec 1, 1974, the same day that TWA 514 (also a 727) went down on approach into IAD. The NWA flight was a positioning ferry related to a charter flight, and only had the crew aboard, so the heavier loss of life with the TWA crash really overshadowed it as far as news coverage. The NWA fight came down some place in upstate New York, IIRC.

As far as non-takeoff/landing jet accidents with icing as the culprit, in addition to the above, there's the SAS MD-80 that flamed out both engines on climbout from ice on the wings breaking off and FODing out both engines. There was also a Fokker F-28 on approach over in Germany somewhere that didn't make the runway and bellied into a field, but I can't recall if that was icing being the trigger, or whether it was some kind of accoustical panel on the inside on the engine panel coming loose and FODing the engines.

The SAS one for sure...
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EMBQA
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:26 am

Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 2):
The 1994 American Eagle ATR 72 (Turbo-Prop) was directly attributable to inflight icing accumulation.

There was a Comair E120 around the same time frame that went down due to in-flight icing as well.
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FredT
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:25 am

Was some renewed fuzz about a Citation which stalled in from 1500' on approach due to icing on Feb 16th 2005 just now.

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Starlionblue
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:55 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 25):
As far as non-takeoff/landing jet accidents with icing as the culprit, in addition to the above, there's the SAS MD-80 that flamed out both engines on climbout from ice on the wings breaking off and FODing out both engines.

Well. This was sort of take-off.  Wink Very close at least. Scary day as I recall. Typical Swedish disaster though. No deaths. Compare to the Gripen crash during an airshow onto the island where half the city was standing. No deaths there either. Sweden is weird that way.
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SansVGs
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 28):
Compare to the Gripen crash during an airshow onto the island where half the city was standing. No deaths there either. Sweden is weird that way.

Odin must have been the original aviation god.
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Starglider
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RE: Jets In Ice

Tue Mar 27, 2007 8:39 pm

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 29):
Odin must have been the original aviation god.

Unfortunately Odin remains a myth, certainly as the original aviation god.

I remember one ice related crash vividly which does not fit in that category.

In 1977 a Skyline Sweden Vickers Viscount 838 crashed. It was a scheduled passenger flight that crashed into a residential area on January 15, 1977, killing all 22 people on board.

The airplane, a Vickers 838 Viscount, was at an altitude of 1,150 feet and was descending to land at the Stockholm-Bromma Airport, serving Stockholm. Suddenly, the aircraft experienced a loss of pitch control. The aircraft went into a steep dive and crashed into the residential area of Kälvesta, five miles short of the runway. The aircraft impacted a car park, and no one on the ground was killed. All 19 passengers and 3 crew members on board the airplane unfortunately were killed.

The investigation performed by the Swedish government came to the following conclusions:

The aircraft had been cruising for a long period with the number two and number three engines at a low power setting. This meant that the anti-icing systems run from the engines were not at a temperature sufficient for them to operate correctly. As a result, ice built up on the stabilizer, which disrupted the airflow, causing the loss of pitch control.


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KELPkid
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RE: Jets In Ice

Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 4):
I know the Dornier 328 Jet has Boots, while most "jet" aircraft are equipped with hot wings.

I'm home sick from work today with a bad cold (thanks, wifey for sharing it  ill  ). I was reading my new Flying magazine which came last weekend, and pg. 88 is an Everglades University ad with 3 DO-328 jets which look to have hot wings intstead of boots...(April 2007 issue). Just thought I'd bring that one up (although I seriously doubt that the university owns them  Wink ). Doctored photo? Perhaps.
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Starglider
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 25):
There was also a Fokker F-28 on approach over in Germany somewhere that didn't make the runway and bellied into a field, but I can't recall if that was icing being the trigger, or whether it was some kind of accoustical panel on the inside on the engine panel coming loose and FODing the engines.

Aircraft in question was actually a Fokker 70 (F28 Mk0070) operated by Austrian Airlines, approaching Munich in icing conditions.

Due to a prolonged time under moderate icing conditions and low engine thrust, ice developed on the rotors of the low pressure compressors of both engines. The bonded joints of the ice impact panels on both engines failed due to strains caused by ice-induced vibrations of the engines and by ice which had shedded from the rotors of the low pressure compressor. The loose ice impact panels became trapped and affected the airflow in the by-pass duct in such a way that the engines could only produce low thrust. The runway was no longer within reach of the aircraft as the loss of thrust on both engines had not triggered any warnings and was not indicated until the necessary demand of thrust at an altitude of 3,500 ft. The pilots belly-landed the aircraft in an open snow covered field about 2.5 miles short of the runway.


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SansVGs
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RE: Jets In Ice

Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Starglider (Reply 32):

Due to a prolonged time under moderate icing conditions and low engine thrust, ice developed on the rotors of the low pressure compressors of both engines.

Interesting. I complain about my current plane requiring full air brake to stay slow in icing. This is because the auto-throttles will not retard thrust below a fixed value to keep enough heat to the nacelle lips and wings. I will remember your incident and not complain now.
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Lemurs
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RE: Jets In Ice

Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:20 pm

Does anyone have any diagrams/pictures handy of de-icing boots in action or how they're installed/used? The whole idea of de-icing and airplane with moving parts sounds hilariously dangerous to me once you have minature volcanoes hanging off the wings, but I can see why it would have made sense in piston prop days. For the life of me though, I can't imagine how you'd do this without really adding a tremendous amount of complexity and weight to a wing...
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