JETBLUEATASW
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New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:12 am

I appreciate you all in advance for answering my questions I have. I intend to be a Airline Transport Pilot one day, but for now im starting off with my private pilot's license. I took off in a Cessna172R from MacArthur Airport runway 33L via Whisky taxiway. I was number 2 for Depature, following a Southwest 737-800. A question about Regulation, im sure the FAA requires this, or maybe its the USDOT. Why is it that pilots are required to stop at the beginning of the runway usually known as the "piano keys"?
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Ralgha
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 6:25 am

They're not.

A "standard" takeoff in a turbine aircraft is a static one, which means you stop, run up the power to whatever the takeoff power setting is, then release the brakes and roll. The other type is a rolling takeoff, which is anything other than what I just described for a static takeoff. Anything from holding the brakes until power is 99% set (instead of 100%), to not even slowing down after the turn onto the runway.

Whether one must do a static takeoff or not is determined by the performance data for the particular runway in use.
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MDorBust
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:02 am

Quoting JETBLUEATASW (Thread starter):
Why is it that pilots are required to stop at the beginning of the runway usually known as the "piano keys"?

Required, not so much.

But, starting from the threshold does provide you with the most runway to use on takeoff. A good idea in case you have to reject. Runway behind you and air above you...

Smaller aircraft often make intersection departures. I don't think I've seen an RJ at ORD ever use the full runway.
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Mir
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting JETBLUEATASW (Thread starter):
I was number 2 for Depature, following a Southwest 737-800.

This is why. It's not a regulatory requirement, but by starting from the very end of the runway, you're minimizing the length of runway that it takes you to get into the air, and thus placing yourself farther from the departure path of the 737. This minimizes your chance of coming into contact with its wake tubulence, which will really ruin your day at low altitude.

When departing after a big plane, I always use the most runway available. When going into position and hold after a big plane has landed, I'll trundle slowly down the runway while it clears so that by the time I get my takeoff clearance, I'm about 500 feet down the runway, and thus 500 feet closer to the point where it touched down, and stopped generating its wake.

-Mir
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411A
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:35 am

The 'standard' takeoff is most definitely NOT a static one in a turbine powered airplane.

Having flown turbine powered airplanes for over thirty five years (both turbopropeller, turbojet and turbofan powered varieties)
I have only two or three times done a static full power engine run prior to brakes release.

Type, B707-320, JT4A powered.

ALL the rest have been rolling takeoffs.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting JETBLUEATASW (Thread starter):
I was number 2 for Depature, following a Southwest 737-800

And not to nit-pick, but WN doesn't have 738s in the fleet. It was probably a 73G you were following.
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Ralgha
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 4):
The 'standard' takeoff is most definitely NOT a static one in a turbine powered airplane.

Yes it is. "Standard" has absolutely nothing to do with "usual". Performance data is calculated based on a static takeoff, and then adjusted for rolling takeoffs.
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bio15
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:04 pm

Hi Paul.

Pilots are not required to stop at the piano keys, but they are required to comply with Air Traffic Control. ATC may issue a "Taxi into position and hold" instruction which means you may line up with the runway but you are not cleared to takeoff. The controller doesn't specify where to hold short, if at the piano keys or farther, and it is not his/her concern at all as long as you comply with the hold-short instruction.

This instruction expedites takeoff procedures. If you're at the taxiway and a plane is landing or taking off, ATC will let you taxi into takeoff position after the aircraft has passed, so when it has vacated the active runway you can be ready for immediate takeoff.

The piano keys are a visual indication of the runway width, but not a hold short signal or such. It is common to see General Aviation pilots taxiing into the aft-most position of the runway to get the most usable runway length for the takeoff, and this spot is coincidentially above the piano keys on runways with no displaced threshold.


regards
Alfredo
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:48 pm

There are several ATC instructions for takeoff and "position and hold" is NOT one of them; what that means is that you shoud move out onto the runway, in takeoff position, and stop right there.

"Cleared for takeoff" means just that, so do it.

"Take it out rolling" is, I believe, unofficial clearance slang that means that you should move from the taxiway to the runway to takeoff without stopping for anything.

"Expedite" means that you should haul ass; there is a B-52 on short final that is gonna squash you like a bug unless you get outta there. I interpret "take it out rolling" to be the same thing and I haven't been almost hit by a B-52 since 1961.

Then, again, that was on short final and is another story. If you beg me, I'll tell you.
 
thegreatchecko
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeo

Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:54 pm

Quoting Bio15 (Reply 7):
but they are required to comply with Air Traffic Control.

Always keep in mind that the pilot in command is the final authority regarding safety and the operation of the aircraft. While ATC might think you are required to do what they say, the pilot isn't actually required to follow their clearances. (CFR 91.3)

HOWEVER, you must have a really good reason that has to do with the immediate safety of your aircraft and/or passengers, ie engine is on fire or there is a plane on short final to the runway you've just been cleared onto, because diregarding a clearance is very serious and can cause some bad things to happen.

Checko
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PhilSquares
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:50 pm

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 6):
Quoting 411A (Reply 4):
The 'standard' takeoff is most definitely NOT a static one in a turbine powered airplane.

Yes it is. "Standard" has absolutely nothing to do with "usual". Performance data is calculated based on a static takeoff, and then adjusted for rolling takeoffs.

At my airline, all of our performance is based on a "rolling" takeoff since that's the most conservative method.
Fly fast, live slow
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 8):
"Expedite" means that you should haul ass; there is a B-52 on short final that is gonna squash you like a bug unless you get outta there. I interpret "take it out rolling" to be the same thing and I haven't been almost hit by a B-52 since 1961.

Then, again, that was on short final and is another story. If you beg me, I'll tell you.

Ok I'll beg.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
VTBDflyer
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 8):
"Expedite" means that you should haul ass; there is a B-52 on short final that is gonna squash you like a bug unless you get outta there. I interpret "take it out rolling" to be the same thing and I haven't been almost hit by a B-52 since 1961.

Then, again, that was on short final and is another story. If you beg me, I'll tell you.

I'm interested now, I think I'm willing to beg...  Smile

VTBDflyer
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leebird
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 8):
"Expedite" means that you should haul ass; there is a B-52 on short final that is gonna squash you like a bug unless you get outta there. I interpret "take it out rolling" to be the same thing and I haven't been almost hit by a B-52 since 1961.

Then, again, that was on short final and is another story. If you beg me, I'll tell you.

I'll beg, too. I always enjoy hearing stories about aviation.
 
Ralgha
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 10):
At my airline, all of our performance is based on a "rolling" takeoff since that's the most conservative method.

Is it calculated from scratch for that, or is that just how it's presented to the pilots?
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411A
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:05 am

Same here, Phil, the calculations for takeoff data are using a rolling takeoff procedure at my airline...in fact every airline I have worked at in the last thirty years.
If fact, some airplanes, at certain weights (usually lower) REQUIRE a rolling takeoff procedure to be used.

Static full power runs are usually not used, except under very specific circumstances, and at most airlines, are certainly NOT standard procedure.

Wait. I could be wrong. Maybe I should tell my Chief Pilot?
No, that won't work...I AM the Chief Pilot.
 
N243NW
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:18 am

So I assume that if a pilot feels that the aircraft will need the entire runway to take off, he/she can reject an intersection departure clearance, not unlike a LAHSO clearance?

-N243NW Big grin
B-52s don't take off. They scare the ground away.
 
Goldenshield
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:40 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 1):
A "standard" takeoff in a turbine aircraft is a static one, which means you stop, run up the power to whatever the takeoff power setting is, then release the brakes and roll.



Quoting 411A (Reply 4):
The 'standard' takeoff is most definitely NOT a static one in a turbine powered airplane.



Quoting Ralgha (Reply 6):
Yes it is. "Standard" has absolutely nothing to do with "usual".



Quoting Ralgha (Reply 14):
Is it calculated from scratch for that, or is that just how it's presented to the pilots?



Quoting 411A (Reply 15):
If fact, some airplanes, at certain weights (usually lower) REQUIRE a rolling takeoff procedure to be used.

Static full power runs are usually not used, except under very specific circumstances, and at most airlines, are certainly NOT standard procedure.

Gentlemen, if I may interject.

The performance provided to pilots, and how it is presented, is based solely on how conservative the airline asks the performance provider to be, and what procedures the airline decides best fits them. There is no "standard" anything, except internally based on how a given airline decides to have it calculated and presented.
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Mir
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 16):
So I assume that if a pilot feels that the aircraft will need the entire runway to take off, he/she can reject an intersection departure clearance, not unlike a LAHSO clearance?

Yes, though they may be delayed so that their request can be fulfilled.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
N231YE
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:16 am

Just to add, depending on the condition of the takeoff, as well as how procedures are based, can dictate how you perform your takeoff.

Example: Short Field Takeoff: C172R

The scale/graphs for Short Field takeoffs are calculated with the engine at full power, therefore, one must hold onto the brakes before reaching max RPM...when reached, one can let go and proceed with the rest of the procedures

Quoting 411A (Reply 15):
Wait. I could be wrong. Maybe I should tell my Chief Pilot?
No, that won't work...I AM the Chief Pilot.

What airline do you fly for/what aircraft do you fly?
 
411A
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 6:23 am

Lockheed L1011, N231YE, with several in the fleet, middle east based.
As was pointed out, many airlines have specific runway charts, and indeed some airplanes in their AFM specify a rolling takeoff procedure, under most circumstances.
This is not to say that if a static full power engine run is necessary, this cannot be used, just that, with large jet aircraft, it is very unusual, and has been for quite a long time.
In the earlier days of jet transport operations, where straight-pipe non-fan engines were the norm, static full power engine runs prior to brakes release were often used, due to the rather slow spool-up times these engines had, especially where the runway length was limiting, considering the takeoff weight of the airplane.
These airplanes have long since been retired, so the necessity of full power engine runs has diminished greatly.
In addition, most airplanes now utilize reduced/flex thrust, so if more thrust is needed, the next higher derate is generally used.
Further, sometimes using full thrust when the runway surface is wet/icy, and/or a significant crosswind is present, rusults in the airplane sliding sideways.
This, as you can imagine, is NOT good.

[Edited 2007-03-21 23:28:36]
 
bio15
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:46 am

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 8):
There are several ATC instructions for takeoff and "position and hold" is NOT one of them; what that means is that you shoud move out onto the runway, in takeoff position, and stop right there.

"Cleared for takeoff" means just that, so do it.

"Take it out rolling" is, I believe, unofficial clearance slang that means that you should move from the taxiway to the runway to takeoff without stopping for anything.

"Expedite" means that you should haul ass;

Was this refering to my post?
 
LONGisland89
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:51 am

JETBLUEATASW, the reason why you saw what you saw is because 33L at KISP is so short in terms for use for a 737 (around 5,000 feet i recall). It especially becomes interesting on hot summer days when they eat up just about all of the rwy.
 
PhilSquares
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting N243NW (Reply 16):
So I assume that if a pilot feels that the aircraft will need the entire runway to take off, he/she can reject an intersection departure clearance, not unlike a LAHSO clearance?

Yes, and he can reject a LAHSO clearance also!
Fly fast, live slow
 
SansVGs
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting JETBLUEATASW (Thread starter):
I was number 2 for Depature, following a Southwest 737-800. A question about Regulation, im sure the FAA requires this, or maybe its the USDOT. Why is it that pilots are required to stop at the beginning of the runway usually known as the "piano keys"?

Dude, Congrats on the path you have chosen. Don't get in a hurry and forget to have fun flying along the way.

When a controller clears you to take-off (or land) that is "your runway.' If you need to do a static do it. If you have room to roll--roll it. Either way is fine. Don't get "goated" into moving faster than you feel comfortable with--just because some "heavy" is on final. You can always tell ATC you need a minute and hold short. (I am speaking from my own "learning experiences")

As for the required static take-off discussion here. I think the FAR part 25 original aircraft certification numbers "May" require static take-offs. Individual certified airline procedures / numbers, and common sense about jerking the pax make rolling take-offs more the norm.
Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
 
aviator1990
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:36 pm

I'm not sure what you mean but I believe that HOLD SHORT is also the same thing, where you stop at the dashed line before the runway until you get clearance to take-off.
 
bio15
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:15 pm

Quoting SansVGs (Reply 24):
When a controller clears you to take-off (or land) that is "your runway.' If you need to do a static do it. If you have room to roll--roll it. Either way is fine. Don't get "goated" into moving faster than you feel comfortable with--just because some "heavy" is on final. You can always tell ATC you need a minute and hold short. (I am speaking from my own "learning experiences")

From your post I understand that it should be OK to taxi into position and then hold a minute if you request to do so because you require time to get ready for whichever acceptable reason.

Here my learning experiences have taught me otherwise. If you are not ready to takeoff you shouldn't taxi into position on the active, especially when an approaching aircraft, which has right of way, is on final. It's possible to revert an ATC takeoff clearance by changing your immediate intentions and holding short of the active stating you need a minute or two. It's good courtesy since you spare the incoming aircraft a go-around / missed approach which is time and fuel consuming, and besides you took your time to take care of whichever issues delayed the takeoff. Otherwise, when able to safely "haul ass", do so  Smile.


Alfredo
 
2H4
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:27 pm



I can think of several jets that perform static full power engine runs prior to virtually every takeoff as standard operating procedure. Can anyone guess which ones?


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:32 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 27):
Can anyone guess which ones?

any off a carrier.


Only time we see a Static T/O is wind related. There's a max x-wind for rolling t/o but it's definately the norm.
 
2H4
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:40 pm




Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 28):
any off a carrier.

 yes 
Intentionally Left Blank
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeo

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:41 pm

Since you all begged so politely:

This happened in 1961; a time when the Strategic Air Command regularly flew low level, high speed, B-62 missions along what were called "Oil Burner" routes. These routes were published as hashed gray lines on charts and appropriately NOTAMed. What nobody knew, then, was that there were, also, UNPUBLISHED Oil Burner routes.

I was landing a C172 at the litttle airport at Clarksville, Texas. This was a 35' wide by 1500' useable length gravel runway. One always landed on 18 and took off on 36 unless the x-wind component was intolerable and thanked Clyde Cessna for those 40-degree flaps on landing.. There was this granny lady's house with a 50' tall TV antenna and some nice old Live Oak trees just off the approach end of 36.

So there I was, eyeballs caged and focused on the approach end of 18, 40-degree flaps and about 200' AGL, when the biggest howling mass of tin in the world passed on front of me and BELOW me, right accross the center of the runway, headed west to east.. It was a Strategic Air Command B-52, screaming at what must have 400 or 500 knots.

I made an immediate, full power, right climbing turn (vortex wakes descend, right is safer than left) and, when I got turned around, and at a safe altitude, all I could see was a trail of black smoke toward the east.
 
speedracer1407
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:55 pm

Question about the scope of the terms "rolling" and "static" takeoff:

Is a rolling takeoff any takeoff in which the engines are not spooled up to full takeoff power before brake release?

The vast majority of takeoffs I've experienced involve stopping on the runway after lining up (presumably waiting for ATC clearance), followed by brake release, followed by spool-up. I assume this is a rolling takeoff.

But on a fairly recent flight out of ORD in a snowstorm, we taxied into position on the runway, the brakes were set, and the engines spooled up quite a bit. After a few moments, the brakes were released, and we immediately began accelerating. THEN the engines were spooled noticeably higher accompanied by niticeably greater acceleration.

Was this still a rolling start because the PF didn't spool the engines to full takeoff power before brake release? Whatever it was called, I assume the PF spooled the engines before brake release to stabilize symetric power due to the contaminated runway, but that's just a guess.
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VTBDflyer
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 7:41 pm

Quoting ThirtyEcho (Reply 30):

Now thats my type of story  Smile , and a close encounter... any chance she made some good cookies? Big grin
Got'a love them old B-52s

VTBDflyer
Fly Thai
 
SansVGs
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:26 pm

Are you asking if holding short is the same thing as a static take-off? It is not.

Quoting Aviator1990 (Reply 25):
I'm not sure what you mean but I believe that HOLD SHORT is also the same thing, where you stop at the dashed line before the runway until you get clearance to take-off.

Static takeoffs occur from a stopped position on the runway facing in the direction of runway heading.

Quoting Bio15 (Reply 26):
From your post I understand that it should be OK to taxi into position and then hold a minute if you request to do so because you require time to get ready for whichever acceptable reason.

I am not suggesting that someone take an inordinate amount of time on the runway. But they should not be / feel rushed by a tight sequence situation. Just ask to wait holding short (not on the runway) far a while longer.
Winglets on a Falcon are "over-painting" a great work of art.
 
Pope
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Fri Mar 23, 2007 5:43 am

Why start from the piano keys? Simple, because amount of runway behind you is a meaningless figure. The same goes for amount of fuel consumed. You want to know how much runway you have in front of you and how much fuel you have left in the tanks.

Though it may never be an issue in a C172, sooner or later a couple of extra feet of runway space may be the difference between life and death. In the recent Comair crash the plane was just a couple hundred feet short of its minimum take off distance. Start learning to fly the right way from the very beginning and you'll never have to break yourself of bad habits.

It's the same reason that a lot of flight instructors like you to check undercarriage and prop position (GUMP - gas undercarriage mixture props) on fixed undercarriage fixed prop planes. If you get in the habit of always doing it, it's second nature and you'll never forget.

I always look out the window to check that the the gear is still on the C152's / C172's I fly when I'm going through my landing checklist even though though I know that there's no way that it wouldn't be there.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Sat Mar 24, 2007 1:53 am

Quoting Ralgha (Reply 1):
A "standard" takeoff in a turbine aircraft is a static one, which means you stop, run up the power to whatever the takeoff power setting is, then release the brakes and roll.

no....infact Boeing has documents on this.....N1 is run up to about 40% then the brakes are released....as Boeing has put it in one of their circulars, excessive force on the brakes arise when you set takeoff power and still have the parking break or pedals pressed down....also, there is excessive vibration and tension on flaps and on gear roots because the plane is not moving and all the energy is jiggled around the gear....

a 737-800, what i fly, has a shit load of power at 26K thrust when it'snot moving...

the performance figures are calculated based on takeoff power being set BY 60 knots....if not then the figures dont work out...most airlines will calculate takeoff analysis charts with an addition added for line up after taxying so there is no need to wear the brakes by stopping, even a lil tap on the brakes is $ for an airline when it's hot and the a/c is heavy...

Static takeoffs are highly frowned upon in Europe, because of noise (it takes a while to get to that thrust and you're not moving) also because of debris and damage to almost anything behind a 747/757 777 while it spools up to full power...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
onetogo
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Sun Mar 25, 2007 2:34 am

How about icing conditions. Engines must be run above xx% N1 for xx number of seconds. 411A, you do any GA flying out of Scottsdizzle?
 
411A
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RE: New Pilot Has Silly Questions About Taxi/takeoff

Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:40 am

If engine icing is anticipated, the engines are accelerated to 60% N1 for one minute prior to brakes release, with engine anti-ice selected ON, with the L1011.
And no, 411A does not regularly fly out of SDL.
FFZ is our home base....where fuel is a whole lot cheaper.

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