ConcordeBoy
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DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:55 am

I'd heard about this, but didn't believe it was actually being implemented until I heard it straight out of the horse's mouth:
on their domestic, international, and shorter intercontinental nonstops departing JFK's Rwy 31L, DL aircraft will now enter the runway at the last intersection before crossing 22R, where they will begin their takeoff rolls with still more than 10,000ft to go. The airline claims a 33% reduction in avg taxi time at that airport on the onset of this procedure.
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Nothing really dramatic, at this airport anyways; but still interesting--- particularly considering the old aviation quip re: "the most useless thing in the world".  Wink

What say you types?
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Feroze
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:07 pm

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If I'm correct (usually a big if!), the entry into 31L will be at K/KA
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Wed Apr 04, 2007 12:09 pm

I've seen this before at JFK.

At first it was Delta CRJ-200s that were taking off of 31L while all other traffic was departing 22R but then Delta 767-300s started departing the same way and then a few American 757s and 767s did it as well.
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InnocuousFox
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Wed Apr 04, 2007 1:06 pm

It's a similar situation to the Tango-10 intersection on 31L at ORD. It's just north of where it crosses 9R/27L.
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MaverickM11
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:00 pm

That means an incredibly short taxi from their terminal. Must save on gas too.
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Mir
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:01 pm

Intersection departures themselves on 31L at JFK are nothing new. What is new is that they'll be doing this while the 4s/22s are in use.

[quote=Feroze,reply=1]If I'm correct (usually a big if!), the entry into 31L will be at K/KA[quote]

It'll be from KK. K and KA would interfere with the taxi route to 4L. From where I sit, the key to this plan is that the 4s/22s can remain operational. If only the 31s are in use, there's no realistic way that intersection departures can be used for some aircraft and not for others. Since using the intersection for departures will really jam up the taxiways in the area if there is a large amount of traffic, I don't think you'll find this in use at busy periods when just the 31s are in use. But it will save time for domestic flights when the 22s or 4s are in use.

-Mir
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AlitaliaMD11
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:04 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
That means an incredibly short taxi from their terminal. Must save on gas too.

You will also notice when 31R/31L landings are in effect almost every Delta flight goes in on 31L if they have clearance, for shorter taxi time to Terminal 3. However Delta is not the only airline that does that.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:20 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
Intersection departures themselves on 31L at JFK are nothing new.

...for regional flights, sure--- but intercon widebodies?
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PITrules
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:54 pm

This procedure is not airline specific. We've been doing it at JetBlue as well. It took too much effort on the part of the major airline users such as JetBlue and Delta to finally convince the Port Authority to allow this. It should have been a no-brainer.

The decision on which flights get 31L KK is based on a flight's first departure fix, not airline or terminal location.
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Mir
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 7):
...for regional flights, sure--- but intercon widebodies?

Not particularly - it's often done when traffic is light. In any case, as mentioned by PITrules, who gets the intersection departure is based on departure fixes. To avoid having to cross the departure or arrival paths, aircraft assigned the intersection will be departing to the west, and aircraft on 4/22 will be departing to the east. Since almost all the intercon widebodies are going east to Europe, they won't be using 31L in that runway configuration.

-Mir
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Dalmd88
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:15 am

I flew out of JFK back in Feb. For some reason we were forced to take the grand tour to get to the end of 31L. We took taxiway A around the entire terminal area. I don't really understand why. The airport at that hour was pretty well deserted and others were coming directly down the side of 31R.
 
positiverate
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 7):
Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
Intersection departures themselves on 31L at JFK are nothing new.

...for regional flights, sure--- but intercon widebodies?

I've departed at the intersection a few times headed for SVO. Doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 3):
It's a similar situation to the Tango-10 intersection on 31L at ORD. It's just north of where it crosses 9R/27L

It's actually 32L (not 31L) that has the T10 departures.
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UN_B732
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:39 am

I've departed at the intersection going to SVO too.. Seriously, my jaw almost dropped when I realized how short the taxi was, my Freedom Dash 8 from BTV spent more time taxiing..
-A
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InnocuousFox
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 7:46 am

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 12):
It's actually 32L (not 31L) that has the T10 departures.

Sigh. I knew that. I don't know what my problem is today.
 mad 
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kevin82277
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:36 am

Unless the winds are too strong to do this, they do this most mornings and nights during rush hour. All aircaft departing to the Southwest use 31L @ KK and the rest will use 22R or 4L. It is very common these days for all aircraft.
 
corey07850
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:43 am

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 7):
...for regional flights, sure--- but intercon widebodies?

Yeah... nothing new really. Pilots will request to depart from K, KA, or KK if they have the numbers for it. I've even seen fully laden 747 freighters request intersections rather than 31L full length. The same thing goes on at EWR with departures off 22R @ W to avoid the added runway crossing of 11/29
 
rjpieces
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:56 am

Quoting AlitaliaMD11 (Reply 2):
At first it was Delta CRJ-200s that were taking off of 31L while all other traffic was departing 22R but then Delta 767-300s started departing the same way and then a few American 757s and 767s did it as well.

As Mir pointed out, this is the real "new thing." I noticed this pattern two weeks ago when I was driving to JFK to see the A380...Anyone know when this started?
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B707Stu
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:29 am

Yes, it's the Kilo Kilo (KK) take-off on 31L, not unusual, hear it happen all the time on the live ATC.
 
richierich
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:27 pm

A couple of questions regarding the JFK 31L intersection takeoffs:

- Is it just DL that is allowed to do this? Based on all of the posts, it seems that is the case.

- While the intersection takeoffs are presumably quicker for the aircraft doing the taking-off, does it actually add to the delay for the aircraft waiting to depart at the far end of the runway?
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Mir
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting Richierich (Reply 19):
Is it just DL that is allowed to do this? Based on all of the posts, it seems that is the case.

Nope, any airline that can take off from KK will be able to (if ATC allows).

Quoting Richierich (Reply 19):
While the intersection takeoffs are presumably quicker for the aircraft doing the taking-off, does it actually add to the delay for the aircraft waiting to depart at the far end of the runway?

It depends. Sometimes the delay will be longer for the intersection departures as they have to wait for wake turbulence separation (longer from an intersection than from the full length). Mixing intersection departures with full length departures will slow down the operation, which is why you're unlikely to see it done very often - either everyone will go from the intersection or nobody will (with limited exceptions).

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
richierich
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
It depends. Sometimes the delay will be longer for the intersection departures as they have to wait for wake turbulence separation (longer from an intersection than from the full length). Mixing intersection departures with full length departures will slow down the operation, which is why you're unlikely to see it done very often - either everyone will go from the intersection or nobody will (with limited exceptions).

Thanks for the insight - I wasn't aware of all of that.
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kevin82277
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
It depends. Sometimes the delay will be longer for the intersection departures as they have to wait for wake turbulence separation (longer from an intersection than from the full length). Mixing intersection departures with full length departures will slow down the operation, which is why you're unlikely to see it done very often - either everyone will go from the intersection or nobody will (with limited exceptions).

This is not completly true. Using the intersection departures is much better and reduces the delay alot. When they do use the intersection departures, they will have one plane in position on 31L @ KK and have a few departures on 22R. Once the 22R departure clears 31L on the roll, they clear 31L aircraft for takeoff, and have another taxi into position. Most all SW departures use 31L, it greatly reduces the taxi time. They will use this everyday the winds allow them to. It is great when they do use this. But not everyday the winds will allow this, so you won't see it everyday. And they only do this during peak departures times.
 
mirrodie
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RE: DL Begins Intersection Takeoffs On JFK's 31L

Mon Apr 09, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting PITrules (Reply 8):
This procedure is not airline specific.



Quoting Positiverate (Reply 11):
Doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.

Exactly. It's been done for a long time. Not news.
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