acabgd
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Engine On Wrong Side?

Mon May 07, 2007 8:55 am

Sorry to post a photo from another site, but it seems to me as this engine is mounted on the wrong side of the plane.

Isn't the fin supposed to be on the inside, ie. turned toward the cabin?

http://www.planepictures.net/netshow.php?id=614336
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bohica
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Mon May 07, 2007 10:16 am

I looked at a bunch of 733 photos and that is the only one I have seen with a cowling fin pointing away from the fuselage. I can't tell if there is a fin pointing towards the fuselage on the other side of the engine or what the #1 engine looks like. You may want to ask this question in the tech-ops forum.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Mon May 07, 2007 10:56 am

Quoting Acabgd (Thread starter):
but it seems to me as this engine is mounted on the wrong side of the plane.

The engine is fine. The Fan Cowl door is the issue. It could just be a alternate installation. The left hand inboard door is the same as the right hand outboard...
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
CanadianNorth
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Mon May 07, 2007 12:42 pm

Probably a case of part A needed replacing, part A wasn't availible, but part B was sitting right there and happened to fit just as well, and therefore was used untill a time when it is convenient to install the proper part.


CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
N243NW
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 2:35 am

I'm willing to bet this was just a spare that the aircraft needed and that particular engine has another vortex generator on the inboard side of the cowling as well (it has two for the time being). Interesting find, though!

-N243NW Big grin
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KELPkid
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 3:04 am

I'm suprised that any pilot would fly the thing after the "wrong" cowling was placed on the outboard side...

That strake is there for a reason (and I don't know why off of the top of my head...), and when it gets placed on the wrong side, it is altering airflow, but it is now not doing it in the manner Boeing intended, which would make the first flight crew to fly the aircraft in this manner test pilots  no 

I doubt Boeing approves of this modification, but if anyone else has proof that this is an approved modification, feel free to speak up.
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OGGFBORefueler
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 3:12 am

The plane looks normal...unless I'm missing the whole picture here. Big grin

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Keone
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legoguy
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 3:16 am

It looks as if the inboard cowling cover of the left engine is the same as the outboard cowling cover of the right engine, and as mentioned above, lack of spare parts could be the reason behind this. Strange to see the little strake on the outside of the engine. Do all aircraft have this, or is it only found on Boeing aircraft?
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Aer Lingus
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 3:17 am

that fin would only be there to IMPROVE airflow and is by no means critical to flight. besides, if an aircraft without its winglet is an approved modification then obviously a fin such as that on the cowling is going to make a neglibable difference
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 3:18 am

A320 series have it as well, some engines have two, some have one. Depends on the installation.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 8):
that fin would only be there to IMPROVE airflow

The strake creates a high-energy vortex that passes right over the wing at low airspeeds. I've taken many a flight into/out of PDX on 733's on a humid day...  Smile
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airtran717
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
I'm suprised that any pilot would fly the thing after the "wrong" cowling was placed on the outboard side...

That strake is there for a reason (and I don't know why off of the top of my head...), and when it gets placed on the wrong side, it is altering airflow, but it is now not doing it in the manner Boeing intended, which would make the first flight crew to fly the aircraft in this manner test pilots

I doubt Boeing approves of this modification, but if anyone else has proof that this is an approved modification, feel free to speak up.

As usual, someone is making a mountain out of a mole hill. But I do tend to agree that substituting parts like that... just because they happen to fit doesn't mean you should use them. Good eye to the poster.

717
 
EMBQA
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
I'm suprised that any pilot would fly the thing after the "wrong" cowling was placed on the outboard side...

Why..??? It's an approved alternate...!!!! get over it....


Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
I doubt Boeing approves of this modification

Not only does Boeing approve of this, they wrote the book to allow it to happen.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
KELPkid
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
Why..??? It's an approved alternate...!!!! get over it....

And where is the approval documented?

And I say again (the second half of my sentence which you didn't quote):

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
, but if anyone else has proof that this is an approved modification, feel free to speak up.

I dislike it when people cherry-pick my words...

I'll gladly place my foot in my mouth if and when someone proves me wrong here  Wink
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dl757md
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 5:33 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
Not only does Boeing approve of this, they wrote the book to allow it to happen.

Which book would that be? I just looked through the 733 CDL and the MEL and found nothing pertaining to this situation much less allowing it. Lacking CDL or MEL relief such a substitution would then require engineering authority with Boeing approval.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
qslinger
Posts: 230
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting Bohica (Reply 1):
cowling fin

Whats the purpose of a crowling fin?
Raj Koona
 
Aer Lingus
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 6:34 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 10):
The strake creates a high-energy vortex that passes right over the wing at low airspeeds.

exactly what im trying to get across, a vortex isn't always an unwelcome air flow. in fact if you look at the wing surfaces of the 737 classic series there are little nothces in front of the control surfaces / ailerons. these create a vortex to IMPROVE the effectiveness of the airflow over the wings. most likely this fin was put there to improve airflow over some control surface or the inboard slats by creating a vortex. its not critical to flight so can we get over the whole "irresponsible of the pilots / engineers to accept this modification" mentality.

seriously, major mountain out of a molehill scenario! get over it! I've done fluid mechanics, being the engineer I am. I do have an idea what i'm talking about.
 
dl757md
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 7:30 am

Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 16):
exactly what im trying to get across, a vortex isn't always an unwelcome air flow

When it is located correctly. This fin, strake, vortex generator, whatever you want to call it was intended to be on the inboard fan cowl. It serves a purpose there. Who are you to say that it doesn't pose a problem when located on the outboard cowl? You have a general idea of fluid mechanics but have you ever analyzed this particular situation?

Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 16):
its not critical to flight so can we get over the whole "irresponsible of the pilots / engineers to accept this modification" mentality.



Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 16):
I've done fluid mechanics, being the engineer I am. I do have an idea what i'm talking about.

Have you done aircraft maintenance? Obviously you have no idea of the system used for accomplishing aircraft maintenance or you wouldn't make the second statement I've quoted above. Unless there is approved documentation you can't do it no matter how irrelevant to flight safety you might think something is. I can't substitute a washer on a coffee maker with one that I know is the same but with a different part number unless it crosses in our part database. That means engineering, either the manufacturer's or our own in-house, has approved that substitution.

We don't know if they had the authority to do this substitution. If they did great. It means somebody went through the work of covering their asses. If they didn't well then they f'ed up and got away with it (maybe). If the latter was the case was this a big deal? Maybe not from an engineering standpoint, I'm not an engineer so I'll have to defer to Aer Lingus's engineering assessment. From a regulatory standpoint? Yes, it would be a big deal.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
wingnut767
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 7:36 am

The #1 Eng and #2 Engine L/H and R/H cowlings are interchangeable. But the maintenance manual specifically states that the Inboard Vortex Control Device must be installed or Aircraft performance may be affected. It then tells you that if the replacement O/B side has a VCD then it must be removed before flight. The VCD is removable and is not a permanent part of the cowling.. The manual is very specific on this and actually gives a caution on the subject.

But I imagine that they could have received relief from a Boeing engineer or their own company engineer?
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
dl757md
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 18):
The manual is very specific on this and actually gives a caution on the subject.

Thanks for clearing this up Wingnut. They got rid of our 733 AMM when they got rid of the planes. We still have the MEL and the CDL so that's all I had to go by.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 18):
But I imagine that they could have received relief from a Boeing engineer or their own company engineer?

I don't know if it's universal but our engineers won't/can't go against the AMM. If it's in there then that's what you have to go by.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
EMBQA
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 9:16 am

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 14):
Which book would that be? I just looked through the 733 CDL and the MEL and found nothing pertaining to this situation much less allowing it.

What did the IPC say...?

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 18):
But the maintenance manual specifically states that the Inboard Vortex Control Device must be installed or Aircraft performance may be affected.

Although you might be correct... most major airlines have their manuals written special for them. What airline A allows, airline B may not. The part 145 station I work for a several different manuals on the same plane, each for a different airline

[Edited 2007-05-08 02:21:18]
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
wingnut767
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
Why..??? It's an approved alternate...!!!! get over it....

Any Proof?

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 12):
Not only does Boeing approve of this, they wrote the book to allow it to happen.

Once again your source?

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 20):
What did the IPC say...?

What did it say? If you are questioning somebody you should already have the answer yourself.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 20):
Although you might be correct... most major airlines have their manuals written special for them. What airline A allows, airline B may not. The part 145 station I work for a several different manuals on the same plane, each for a different airline

Airlines do not have manuals made special for them. The only major differences will be in customer specific equipment. Boeing may print your Airlines logo on it but it is still a Boeing manual.
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
dl757md
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 20):
What did the IPC say...?

We don't have the IPC, AMM, SSM, or the WDM any longer as we've retired our fleet of 733s. Wingnut has supplied us with the AMM telling us that this situation isn't allowed. True, it could be airline specific and not applicable to the aircraft in question but if I were a betting man I would bet that it is applicable to all 733s.

DL757Md
757 Most beautiful airliner in the sky!
 
ReidYYZ
Posts: 503
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 11:53 am

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 18):
But I imagine that they could have received relief from a Boeing engineer or their own company engineer?

Sure, there is a remote possibility of either of these scenarios occurring. However, calling Boeing up for something is highly doubtful, as it would cost time and money for the engineering consultation, secondly in house engineering would base the approval on what? The example above about a washer could easily be found in some sort of cross reference guide, major (I would call this somewhat major) aerodynamic variance most likely is not found in an off the shelf manual. The MM clearly stated, as Wingnut provided, does not allow this. The question remains why not just pull it off in the first place? There was time to throw the cowl on, why not remove the VCD? Having never worked on '37s I can only guess it would be: pick out the PRC, Remove screws/bolts, don't drop the VCD, tag it as removed serviceable and throw it in stores. Wingnut, dl757 am I on the right track? I would bet it was an oversight by the one releasing the book.

Just to go a fair distance back because it was never addressed:

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
I'm suprised that any pilot would fly the thing...

I'm not so surprised, if the person releasing the book said it was ok, or didn't even think about any repercussions, chances are the four stripes didn't think twice about it. And just to appease, and not 'cherry pick':

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
I'm suprised that any pilot would fly the thing after the "wrong" cowling was placed on the outboard side...
 
KELPkid
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 1:47 pm

Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 16):
seriously, major mountain out of a molehill scenario!



Quoting AirTran717 (Reply 11):
As usual, someone is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

And yet:

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 18):
But the maintenance manual specifically states that the Inboard Vortex Control Device must be installed or Aircraft performance may be affected. It then tells you that if the replacement O/B side has a VCD then it must be removed before flight. The VCD is removable and is not a permanent part of the cowling.. The manual is very specific on this and actually gives a caution on the subject.

Sounds like Boeing thinks it's a big deal.

Pilots (myself included, even if I am but a lowly private pilot) are not aircraft engineers (and if they were, they would most likely be test pilots  Wink ).

Quote:
Part 91.3:
Sec. 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for,
and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.


Taking this a step further:

Quote:

Sec. 91.7 Civil aircraft airworthiness.

(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft unless it is in an
airworthy condition.
(b) The pilot in command of a civil aircraft is responsible for
determining whether that aircraft is in condition for safe flight. The
pilot in command shall discontinue the flight when unairworthy
mechanical, electrical, or structural conditions occur.

Meaning: I'll trust Boeing for the aerodynamics. If it's my bird, and I find anything out of whack (like a misplaced Vortex Generator), I'll start asking questions...

Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 16):
exactly what im trying to get across, a vortex isn't always an unwelcome air flow

Have you seen the size of the VG in question? It's not like the tiny ones out on the wing...meaning there's lots more air that this one does it's thing to. Even if it were a tiny one out on the wing, I would ask questions before it would pass my scrutiny. If the mechanic who signed off on the work told me it was Boeing-approved, then I would accept that as an authoritative answer.
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wingnut767
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 9:37 pm

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 23):
The question remains why not just pull it off in the first place? There was time to throw the cowl on, why not remove the VCD? Having never worked on '37s I can only guess it would be: pick out the PRC, Remove screws/bolts, don't drop the VCD, tag it as removed serviceable and throw it in stores. Wingnut, dl757 am I on the right track? I would bet it was an oversight by the one releasing the book.

You are correct. Just wait for the new PRC to dry. There are also plugs to put into the now empty screw holes

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 23):
Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 18):
But I imagine that they could have received relief from a Boeing engineer or their own company engineer?

That was something that I was just tossing into the wind.
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darkblue
Posts: 227
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Tue May 08, 2007 10:43 pm

Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 16):
exactly what im trying to get across, a vortex isn't always an unwelcome air flow. in fact if you look at the wing surfaces of the 737 classic series there are little nothces in front of the control surfaces / ailerons. these create a vortex to IMPROVE the effectiveness of the airflow over the wings. most likely this fin was put there to improve airflow over some control surface or the inboard slats by creating a vortex. its not critical to flight so can we get over the whole "irresponsible of the pilots / engineers to accept this modification" mentality.

Yes, strakes can be used to improve airflow over the wings, but that hardly means you can put one anywhere without any thought or analysis and claim "Aha! I have improved the design of the wing!".

A strake in the wrong place could certainly decrease the effectiveness of a control surface. Not exactly a good thing.

Quoting Aer Lingus (Reply 16):
seriously, major mountain out of a molehill scenario! get over it! I've done fluid mechanics, being the engineer I am. I do have an idea what i'm talking about.

You've done the fluid mechanics for this particular scenario? I've taken a dozen aerodynamics courses over the years in undergraduate and post-graduate studies and I honestly can't say whether or not this mod is acceptable just by looking at a picture.
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Wed May 09, 2007 6:33 am

I had a feeling this thread would wind up in tech/ops...  Wink
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VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Wed May 09, 2007 8:54 am

Let's look at this from a real world POV.

The a/c was probably off a chk where the fan cowls had been removed and on re-fitting, the Eng 1 & 2 RH fan cowls got transposed. The mechanics didn't notice it & let's face it, pilots doing their pre-flight are looking for obvious damage not the position of individual componants, so no-one noticed.

The only rider I would add is I haven't worked the 737 so I have assumed the cowls can be transposed.

As for the rest of my theory, I've seen it happen on another a/c until a mech noticed it.

On one a /c type you are allowed to have one or two symmetrical strakes missing but you have to increase your Vls by 5 Knts
 
IFIXCF6
Posts: 107
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2004 12:06 pm

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Wed May 09, 2007 11:26 am

This is a bit off of the mechanical discussion, but right on in the regulatory discussion: yes, airline engineering can make decisions that contradict a manufaturer. As an employee for GE for more than a decade, I know a bit (as my name suggests) about CF6 engines. UAL had a procedure for rigging the VSV feedback cable (stator vanes to fuel control) that violated GE manual procedures AND a specific warning. RII, by the way. But they had it approved. And so, at a GE shop, it was done THEIR way on THEIR engines (-50's, DC10's). Since, for a while, the work cards specified the GE manual, this caused a few arguments. Their procedure was in their QEC manual!

For any that don't understand the acronyms, I'll explain if asked (or someone else will). But the idea that Airline XXX's engineering cannot change the AMM I think, is false.

Mike
 
VC-10
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Wed May 09, 2007 12:26 pm

Quoting IFIXCF6 (Reply 29):
But the idea that Airline XXX's engineering cannot change the AMM I think, is false.

The manufacturer has to issue an NTO (No Technical Objection) and then the maintenance organisation can issue its own paperwork to cover it, assuming the organisation is approved by the airworthiness authorities to do so.
 
boeingfixer
Posts: 573
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:02 am

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Wed May 09, 2007 1:42 pm

Quoting IFIXCF6 (Reply 29):
For any that don't understand the acronyms, I'll explain if asked (or someone else will). But the idea that Airline XXX's engineering cannot change the AMM I think, is false.

Mike

Hi Mike,

Your example centres around a technical procedure which, if I read it correctly, ends with the same result in VSV rigging. The issue with the 733 VCD is that it is an aerodynamic device that has been tested extensively in the wind tunnel/flight test and is required to be installed on the IB side of the cowl for proper operation. Unless Boeing has done wind tunnel and flight testing with it on the OB side of the cowl, I would say any engineer, other than Boeing, would have a tough time justifying this deviation to the certifying authority.

Cheers,

John
Cheers, John YYC
 
ReidYYZ
Posts: 503
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:00 am

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Wed May 09, 2007 2:14 pm

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 25):
You are correct. Just wait for the new PRC to dry. There are also plugs to put into the now empty screw holes

Ah crap, I forgot the plugs. However, I left out the PRC as because how many times has the clock said the PRC is cured, but the brown smear after the a/c flew says otherwise. In past practices, have you defered PRC for aerodynamic purposes (vs. sealing between two criticle points ie: fuel tank, lap joint...etc) until further ground time permitted the proper cure time?
 
Tristarsteve
Posts: 3359
Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 11:04 pm

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Wed May 09, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting IFIXCF6 (Reply 29):
For any that don't understand the acronyms, I'll explain if asked (or someone else will). But the idea that Airline XXX's engineering cannot change the AMM I think, is false.

Yes. Our Boeing produced manuals have small paragraphs in them which have ben added by Boeing at the airline request.To show this the airline code is printed on the left margin on every line.. One example is in Chap 12, tyre pressures. There is a note in the MM to refer to the airlines own Wheel manual to get the pressures.
 
nonfirm
Posts: 426
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 3:04 pm

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Wed May 09, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting Dl757md (Reply 14):
Which book would that be? I just looked through the 733 CDL and the MEL and found nothing pertaining to this situation much less allowing it. Lacking CDL or MEL relief such a substitution would then require engineering authority with Boeing approval.

DL757Md

DL757md here is a little more info for you from the AMM.

This can be found in the 71 section.


If the inbd fan cowl panel is going to be replaced the vortex control device must be removed and installed on the replacement panel.Also the vortex control device IS NOT interchangeable between the left hand and the right hand fan cowls.The vortex control must be installed on the inboard fan cowl panel only.

Also the AMM states that incorrect installation of the VCD can cause unsatisfactory a/c performance.



So I would say the the chances of Boeing AOG engineering approving this would be slim.The first step in the AMM is to remove the VCD and I can not think of an AOG case where this could not be performed especially since in this photo it would appear to have had an alternate cowl put on.So from what I would say is the AMM was not followed.  airplane 
 
avioniker
Posts: 1099
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 5:38 am

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Thu May 10, 2007 4:26 am

Just in case there is any doubt remaining;
In 1999 an airline based in PHX who shall remain nameless did a cowl swap after a starter shelled out. The replacement cowl had the strake and flew for almost a month before a "friendly" Fed noticed and questioned it.
The resulting fine was equal to the total of all revenue collected for all flights from the first flight following the installation of the "improperly configured cowling" to the first flight after its removal.
A very very expensive lesson indeed.
 Smile
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
avioniker
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Thu May 10, 2007 1:41 pm

One other thing that apparently isn't clear to many of the participants in this forum.
While Part 91 places the responsibility for airworthiness squarely on the pilot's sholders, part 121 and part 135 take it a few steps further.
While the Pilot or Captain still has the ultimate authority to declare an aircraft fit or unfit for safe flight, and it is his decision to make before each and every takeoff, if an entry is made in the log, only a properly certificated, trained, qualified, and tested maintenance person may return that aircraft to service with an appropriate response in the maintenance log.
Only in certain instances specifically defined in the Operator's Op Spec and GMM may the Captain make a deferal entry in the log in compliance with that operator's MEL.
That the Captains of many flights and the maintenance personnel on many nights failed to note the extra strake on many documented inspections, caused the "friendly" Feds to be relatively unmerciful when the company in the above post protested their innocence with a request for a reduction of the penalty.
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Fri May 11, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting Avioniker (Reply 36):
While Part 91 places the responsibility for airworthiness squarely on the pilot's sholders, part 121 and part 135 take it a few steps further.
While the Pilot or Captain still has the ultimate authority to declare an aircraft fit or unfit for safe flight, and it is his decision to make before each and every takeoff, if an entry is made in the log, only a properly certificated, trained, qualified, and tested maintenance person may return that aircraft to service with an appropriate response in the maintenance log.
Only in certain instances specifically defined in the Operator's Op Spec and GMM may the Captain make a deferal entry in the log in compliance with that operator's MEL.
That the Captains of many flights and the maintenance personnel on many nights failed to note the extra strake on many documented inspections, caused the "friendly" Feds to be relatively unmerciful when the company in the above post protested their innocence with a request for a reduction of the penalty.

The only "real" difference I see here is that under Part 91, a squawk sheet isn't a legally binding document that would require a mechanic's attention...is that a correct assumption?

Also, I can see where a Part 121 captain might be remiss to not put an aircraft out of service, especially when it arrived safely from the previous flight (worried about the backlash of squawking the bird for the extraneous aerodynamic appendage  Wink ).
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
avioniker
Posts: 1099
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 5:38 am

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Fri May 11, 2007 11:29 am

Without going totally insane here, you might want to check Parts 43 and 65. Your assumption, while commonly held, is wrong.
If it's in writing, and associated with the condition of a specific aircraft, it's to be addressed.
Failure to take appropriate action, including making an entry in the aircraft maintenance document, is in itself a violation and there are an awful lot of unhappy people who used to hold Airmans' Certificates wondering what hit them after running afoul of the wrong government employee trying to make a quota.
While the odds of "getting away with it" are pretty good (there just aren't enough inspectors) when one does get caught it never goes well.
Sorry
Just remember, You can't stop at FL350 to get out and look for what just went "thump". It's the mechanic's job to make sure nobody wants to . . .
 Smile

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 37):
The only "real" difference I see here is that under Part 91, a squawk sheet isn't a legally binding document that would require a mechanic's attention...is that a correct assumption?

Also, I can see where a Part 121 captain might be remiss to not put an aircraft out of service, especially when it arrived safely from the previous flight (worried about the backlash of squawking the bird for the extraneous aerodynamic appendage ).
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
movingtin
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 1:03 am

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Fri May 11, 2007 9:42 pm

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 21):
Airlines do not have manuals made special for them. The only major differences will be in customer specific equipment. Boeing may print your Airlines logo on it but it is still a Boeing manual.

Not correct- Airlines change THEIR Manuals all the time, and not just for customer specific equipment. Majors have whole departments that do nothing but publication changes. The FAA is who must approve the changes, if the manufacturer has objection then they will be addressed, but the FAA is final authority.
 
BEG2IAH
Posts: 853
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:42 pm

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Fri May 18, 2007 5:18 am

This was definitely wrong and somebody didn't do his job correctly. The website of the Trade Union Of Aircraft Engineers of Serbia has a short notice that some of their colleagues are sanctioned for what they did on YU-ANF. So it was a mistake, and good news is that someone is held responsible.

Source (in Serbian only): http://www.ssvms.org.yu/

BEG2IAH
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Fri May 18, 2007 3:10 pm

Quoting VC-10 (Reply 28):
The only rider I would add is I haven't worked the 737 so I have assumed the cowls can be transposed.

Shouldn't the strake be shifted too.Someones not reading the AMM & doing the job.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
musang
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 4:11 am

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:00 pm

Are the VCDs handed?

I.e. accepting that they should only be on the inboard side of the cowl, are there right and left versions? Could the strake be taken off the No 1 engine cowl and put on the No 2?

Our VCDs have a stencilled notice "This strake must be fitted to the inboard side of the number 2 (or 1) engine only" or words to that effect. Occasionally we find one on the wrong engine, and engineers say the paintshop put the wrong notice on the strake.

Regards - musang
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:33 pm



Quoting Dl757md (Reply 14):
Which book would that be? I just looked through the 733 CDL and the MEL and found nothing pertaining to this situation much less allowing it. Lacking CDL or MEL relief such a substitution would then require engineering authority with Boeing approval.



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 18):
The #1 Eng and #2 Engine L/H and R/H cowlings are interchangeable. But the maintenance manual specifically states that the Inboard Vortex Control Device must be installed or Aircraft performance may be affected. It then tells you that if the replacement O/B side has a VCD then it must be removed before flight. The VCD is removable and is not a permanent part of the cowling.. The manual is very specific on this and actually gives a caution on the subject.

Since the MM is not an FAA approved document you can not use it to change the configuration of the aircraft. Therefore, any change to the aircraft configuration must be in the CDL, which is a section of the FAA approved AFM.

The CDL may refer you to the MM to make the actual change (deviation) but the MM can not be used by its self.
 
EcuadorianMD11
Posts: 132
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 5:32 pm

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:30 am



Quoting Acabgd (Thread starter):
Sorry to post a photo from another site,

Hey Acabgd, what did "Stefan Welsch" have to say about this pic?
I assume you approached him before you used this pic..........the bloke seems squite keen on his copyright by the looks of it!

Very perceptive of you though.............don´t know if just anyone would have noticed!

Ecuadorian MD11
A lot of people need to be offended on a regular basis I always felt, and I�´m the very boy to do it! - Billy Connolly
 
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HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Sun Jul 26, 2009 7:26 am



Quoting Musang (Reply 42):
Could the strake be taken off the No 1 engine cowl and put on the No 2?

Undoubtly.
regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Faro
Posts: 1491
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RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:35 am

Bottom line, if the aircraft in question were to have some trouble, an engine-related mishap or a hard landing due to unstabilised approach, could the mis-directed strake installation invalidate engine/airframe warranties or incur legal liability for the operator (if the installation were not approved/tested by the manufacturer) or manufacturer (if it were not flight-tested and/or certified)?

Maintenance manuals and SOP handbooks are one thing, the law is another...

Faro

[Edited 2009-07-27 01:54:40]
The chalice not my son
 
oly720man
Posts: 5740
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Engine On Wrong Side?

Mon Jul 27, 2009 1:43 pm



Quoting EcuadorianMD11 (Reply 44):

Quoting Acabgd (Thread starter):
Sorry to post a photo from another site,

Hey Acabgd, what did "Stefan Welsch" have to say about this pic?

Same photo here


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stefan Welsch



First picture in the new YAT cs. but notice the wrong installed fan cowl on right engine.

Also seen in AMS a few days later


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ruby Allesina

wheat and dairy can screw up your brain

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