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Buyantukhaa
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A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 3:35 am

There was another thread A380 Wing In Action (by Cricket May 13 2007 in Civil Aviation) where the following video was posted:

http://video.google.com/googleplayer...wf?docId=-287991557796771878&hl=en

At the end of it, when the A380 has landed and the flaps are retracted, you can see that the spoilers go up very slightly in the flap retraction process, and then down again when the flaps are completely retracted. Does anybody know if this exists on other planes too? And mostly, if this happens also at flap retraction in climb, would this affect lift much?
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EMBQA
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 3:44 am

Very common with most aircraft. The area in the flap well is very tight with little room and every thing fits just right....and no.. no effect at all. A spoiler raise that little has no effect.

[Edited 2007-05-13 20:45:45]
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft.

I've never noticed this... I'll have a closer look on my next flights.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft.

Which aircraft? I have never worked on an aircraft where the spoilers raise to let the flaps in. If the spoilers are slightly misrigged, they might be pushed up by the retracting flaps, but where is the input to raise them. Does the Flap control unit send a signal to the spoiler control units to raise the spoilers? Never heard of it. Well not on B744 B777 B767 B757 B737 A320 L1011.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 5:28 am

Just watched the video. That is a programmed rise of the spoilers. Never seen it before.
Its a good idea because it allows for an airtight seal between the spoilers and the flaps in cruise.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 5:47 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 4):
That is a programmed rise of the spoilers. Never seen it before.

Well at least i'm not the only one then  Smile
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Fly2HMO
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 6:33 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft.

I've never ever seen that in any aircraft I've flown on comercially and never heard of that being used in any other plane. Wouldn't be surprised if the A380 was the first airliner to have that feature.
 
brettbrett21
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 6:56 am

Good idea, they are some pretty darn large single slotted flaps, unlike the 747's triple slotted ones which kinda' compress into each other, which need some room to move.
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OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 7:49 am

It's a good indication that the flaps have a lot of Fowler motion, ie they move back a long ways before the trailing edge down rotation begins. In addition, this mechanization is probably also necessary as the A380 airfoil has a lot of aft camber, consistent with a supercritical section.

To the best of my knowledge, this is the first time this technique has been used on a large commercial aircraft.
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AA737-823
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 7:58 am

Common in most aircraft?
I have flown many, many types, most of them multiple times, and I have never seen this in my life.
In fact, take the Boeings... you can typically see scrape marks on 737 and 757 flaps, where they have interfered with the spoilers...
 
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zeke
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 8:13 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 4):
Just watched the video. That is a programmed rise of the spoilers. Never seen it before.
Its a good idea because it allows for an airtight seal between the spoilers and the flaps in cruise.

I am thinking it maybe more for ice, if you retracted the flaps without raising the spoilers one could possibly damage the flaps, by raising them the damage is avoided.
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HAWK21M
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft

Which other types.
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kalvado
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Mon May 14, 2007 10:51 pm

Not exactly on topic - but I remember discussion about some panels on 757 wing lifting to let landing gear move.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Tue May 15, 2007 1:20 am

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 12):
Not exactly on topic - but I remember discussion about some panels on 757 wing lifting to let landing gear move

Isn't that the Trunnion Fairing.
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OldAeroGuy
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Tue May 15, 2007 1:54 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
Quoting Kalvado (Reply 12):
Not exactly on topic - but I remember discussion about some panels on 757 wing lifting to let landing gear move

Isn't that the Trunnion Fairing.
regds
MEL

You're thinking of the 767.
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Tue May 15, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting Kalvado (Reply 12):
but I remember discussion about some panels on 757 wing lifting to let landing gear move.

That's the 767 you're talking about:


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S12PPL
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Tue May 15, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft.

I too have never seen this before, like many others have stated here. I've flown on many 737's, A320's, A319's, a 767-300...DC-10...I've never seen the flaps extend slightly to let the flaps retract, so I'm confused where you've seen this before...
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WSOY
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Tue May 15, 2007 5:52 am

This patent application might be of interest, the patent assignee is the builder/designer of the A380 spoilers. Written in almost inpenetrable patentese, if might benefit from a translation into practical English by the experts presently on the forum.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP1527992.html

It's advisable to create an account on the site (free registration) in order to view the original application PDF document and the accompanying images.
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miamiair
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Tue May 15, 2007 9:15 pm

I've never seen that on any of the Boeings. Most spoilers have a phenolic rub strip at the aft end for that very purpose.



Below is a 747 spoiler. The rub strip (-61) is replaced at every overhaul. It is easier to replace a rub strip than to add a monkey-motion system to not rub the spoiler on the upper skin of the flaps. KISS.
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WSOY
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Tue May 15, 2007 9:34 pm

So to elaborate on my earlier posting, it seems to me the reason for the slight deployment of the spoilers on the A380 is to allow the by Patria patented vortex generators on the underside of the spoiler to enhance the lift of the flaps.
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DH106
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Tue May 15, 2007 10:40 pm

This feature may just be necessary, dependant on the shape of the portion of the flap that would normally sit under the spoiler when retracted together with the geometry of the flap extension path.
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SFOMB67
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Wed May 16, 2007 4:58 am

I really think some of the DC-10's had this.....maybe just the -30's. Wasn't it called spoiler bias? I can't be the only one that remembers this!!
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Jetfixr757
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Wed May 16, 2007 10:40 pm

Great idea make something else to break that you cannot defer. Smart French engineering.
Jet
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Thu May 17, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting Jetfixr757 (Reply 22):
Great idea make something else to break that you cannot defer. Smart French engineering.
Jet

 Confused
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jetmech
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Thu May 17, 2007 8:14 am

Quoting Miamiair (Reply 18):
It is easier to replace a rub strip than to add a monkey-motion system to not rub the spoiler on the upper skin of the flaps. KISS

The again, "monkey motion" is not exactly hard to arrange for with a FBW flight control system. In a certain way, a FBW flight control system is more in line with the KISS principle than the hydro-mechanical flight control system of the 747.

Regards, JetMech
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2H4
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Sat May 19, 2007 10:47 pm




Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Very common with most aircraft.

EMBQA, can you please elaborate?


2H4


Intentionally Left Blank
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Sun May 20, 2007 12:32 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 25):
EMBQA, can you please elaborate

I guess EMBQA has forgotten this thread & left the Important questioned unanswered  Smile

regds
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:11 pm

Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 21):
I really think some of the DC-10's had this.....maybe just the -30's. Wasn't it called spoiler bias? I can't be the only one that remembers this!!

I had a look again after this thread was referred to in another, and yes, you're right, that's what it's called, the only reference I could find is here: http://flightcharts.de/plaintext/downloads/10.md11flightcontrols.pdf
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SFOMB67
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Sat Nov 10, 2007 5:02 am

Thanks BuyantUkhaa ! Just found your post concerning "spoiler bias" on the MD-11. I spent hours searching for this, but couldn't find anything about it on line. Can't believe that noone else is familiar with it.
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Klaus
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:46 pm

Quoting JetMech (Reply 24):
The again, "monkey motion" is not exactly hard to arrange for with a FBW flight control system.

Indeed. The spoilers have position sensors anway as far as I'm aware (to allow precisely servo-controlled use as flight spoilers), so this is entirely a software function with exactly zero mechanical components added. And if all spoiler control computers were offline, you'd have bigger problems anyway.

Does anybody know if any of the spoilers are deferable at all on the 380? In that case some friction on flap retraction might be considered acceptable within limits...

[Edited 2007-11-15 15:16:28]
 
mcdu
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:35 pm

Does anyone know if the spoilers make the same motion of raising and then lowering after T/O or Go Around? Would be interested to see if there is any handling/performance issue in the climb, especially in a two engine out configuration.

I know it is only momentary but what does it feel like? Is it FBW'd out of the pilots feel. I hate to use the term "feel" in the airbus. That was my biggest complaint of flying the 319/320 is the lack of feed back in the stick, you had to use the seat of the pants and the pitch view outside the window or the PFD to get the "feel" of the flap retraction.
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:09 pm



Quoting Mcdu (Reply 30):
Would be interested to see if there is any handling/performance issue in the climb

I doubt it, it's a tiny deflection.

Quoting Mcdu (Reply 30):
especially in a two engine out configuration.

In a two-engine out config you're not going to climb anyway...
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SFOMB67
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:27 am



Quoting Mcdu (Reply 30):
Does anyone know if the spoilers make the same motion of raising and then lowering after T/O or Go Around?

I'm sure they do. As I remember, the DC10-30 spoilers all lifted up about 3/4" just as the flaps started to extend from full up, and lifted the same amount just as the flaps were reaching full up. This spoiler extension lasts about 3-4 seconds I'd estimate, and serves to prevent excessive rubbing between the flaps and spoilers, as the spoilers are preloaded against the flaps when they are retracted. Don't know how it feels in the c/p, I was on the maint. end.
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mcdu
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:47 pm



Quoting BuyantUkhaa (Reply 31):
In a two-engine out config you're not going to climb anyway...

You better be able to climb on Two as that is the certification standard. It has to be able to suffer a double engine loss, make it to 35' by the end of the runway, 1500' on the extended centerline or prescribed eng out ground track; ie HKG.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:58 pm



Quoting Mcdu (Reply 33):
You better be able to climb on Two as that is the certification standard. It has to be able to suffer a double engine loss, make it to 35' by the end of the runway, 1500' on the extended centerline or prescribed eng out ground track; ie HKG.

Hmmm
Is this something new?
All aircraft must be able to handle a single engine loss after V1 and climb away but when did a double engine loss come into it? Must be difficult on a two engined aircraft!
 
mcdu
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:23 am



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 34):
All aircraft must be able to handle a single engine loss after V1 and climb away but when did a double engine loss come into it? Must be difficult on a two engined aircraft!

The certification standards vary depending on the number of installed power plants. The Twin is a single engine loss at V1. The quad a two engine loss at V1. The Tri motor is a single engine loss at V1 IIRC and this is one of the reasons along with the rules regarding ETOPS not being yet invented when the L1011 and DC10 were developed.

But a Quad must be able to continue T/O at V1 with double engine failure. Meet the '35 foot restriction at the end of the RWY and climb to at least 1500' AFE.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: A380 Spoilers Slightly Up To Let Flaps In

Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:13 am



Quoting Mcdu (Reply 35):
The certification standards vary depending on the number of installed power plants. The Twin is a single engine loss at V1. The quad a two engine loss at V1.

Do you know where that is in the FAR's? I've never heard of it before (for quads) and it doesn't really make sense.

An engine on a quad is no more or less likely to fail than an engine on a twin. That means the odds of a simultaneous dual engine failure on a quad are the same as a simultaneous dual engine failure on a twin...which is to say, effectively zero. On its face, that seems to be an absolutely absurd design condition for a quad.

Tom.

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