EA772LR
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Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 12:35 am

I was just wondering which engine is the best for the A330. The Pratts seem to be really good for the A330. I know the trents are pretty popular on the 330. GE seems to have the smallest market share. With all personal preferences aside, which engine seems to work the best (sfc, dispatch reliability, etc.) and is the most diverse in its operations? Also, what is the story on the PW4068A? what is its total thrust rating?
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MCOflyer
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 1:23 am

I'll take the RR or GE. The Prats are good as NW and US use them. I do not know much about these engines though.

Hunter
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 1:42 am

I think, as with the 777, each engine has its benefits, but I believe the Trent has the largest market share.

Trent users off the top of my head:

Monarch
Thomas Cook
My Travel
Emirates
China Eastern
Air Transat
Jet Airways
Etihad
Gulf Air
Egyptair
Lufthansa
Yemenia
Cyprus Air
Air Canada
SAS
bmi
Cathay Pacific
Dragonair
China Southern
Orbest/Iberworld
Air Luxor (What are they called now?)
Sri Lankan



Then youve got GE/PW users

Qatar
Malaysian
Swiss
Air France
KLM
TAP
Austrian
SN Brussels
Jet Airways (again)
Turkish
Northwest
Novair
Etihad (again)
LTU
Thai
China Airlines
Air China
EVA
Philippines
US Air
Vietnam
Air Asia (soon to be)
Qantas
Jetstar
Singapore (soon to be)
Korean
Asiana

[Edited 2007-05-21 18:44:17]

[Edited 2007-05-21 18:47:25]

[Edited 2007-05-21 18:47:57]
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
cornish
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):

you forgot Northwest  Wink
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 3):
Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):


you forgot Northwest

Ah tiny little backwater airline nobody has heard of - they only have a couple of A330s right? Easy to forget!  Wink
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
TurkishWings
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 1:50 am

What effect does the engine type have on the performance of an aircraft? Why do some airlines prefer RR an some GE etc? How big is the difference? I am quite ignorant on the subject.. I'd be happy if someone told me briefly  Wink Thanks...
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 5):
briefly

Sorry mate - cant help you.

I only do laboured/boring/stupidly long/far too detailed explanations.
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
egnr
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
Then youve got GE/PW users
...Singapore (soon to be)...

"Rolls-Royce Engine Chosen For Singapore Airlines
By Manufacturing.net Staff
Manufacturing.Net - November 03, 2006

Singapore Airlines said Friday that it has chosen the Rolls-Royce Trent 700 engine for its new fleet of 19 leased Airbus A330-300 twinjets."


Full story
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CHRISBA777ER
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 1:57 am

Well - you should bear in mind that the Rolls is a triple spool/shaft design, ie: the whole Trent family is, stemming back from the RB211 which it is descended from.

The CF6 and PW4060 are twin shaft designs.

I could tell you the relevance of this if you wanted to talk about 777s, but A330s? Nope - i'll leave that to someone who actually knows!
What do you mean you dont have any bourbon? Do you know how far it is to Houston? What kind of airline is this???
 
Mir
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 6):
I only do laboured/boring/stupidly long/far too detailed explanations.

Alright, I'll take one of those then.  Smile

-Mir
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JRadier
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 2:13 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 1):
The Prats are good as NW and US use them

Ah, good to hear PW (for the dutchies, Pruttel en Wil niet) are good because 2 airlines use them? If I would use that in my projects at school I would get slaughtered over it, and rightfully so.
For once you have tasted flight you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards, for there you have been and ther
 
trex8
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 2:20 am

there was a thread IIRC in the Tech forum where this was discussed. it seems the pratts have the lowest fuel burn but as there is no 72K thrust version if you need those higher MTOW and that higher thrust you gotta go with Rolls or GE.
 
flydreamliner
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 2:20 am

This is an interesting question, we all familiar with the characteristics of the 3 777 engine families, but what of the A330? I know NW and US bought PW 4000s because they buy PW for all of their widebodies (NW passed on the 777 for amongst other reasons, the PW powered 777s didn't perform that well, apparently 777s powered by other engines were not a consideration).

A brief survey of the manufacturer's webpages yields the following data:

The Rolls Royce Trent 700 is considered to be the most quiet of the 3, and offers the strongest climbout performance (being triple shaft) according to RR.

Only Rolls Royce and GE offer 72,000 lb thrust class engines, the PW4000 is only avail up to 68,000 lbs, though an -A variant offers slightly more thrust on the PW4068A.

GE claims to be lightest, offering the best SFC (though I'm sure the RR's better climbout performance would cancel out this benefit on shorter flights), and also claims the highest reliability.

The RR has a fan diameter of slightly less than 98", the PW of 100" and the GE of 96" (according to wikipedia) - though a total engine diameter of 114".
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EA772LR
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 2:31 am

PW's website says the PW4068A is available with a 4.5% increase in thrust. that puts it right at 71,060lbs. Is there really that much difference in that and RR's Trent772B w/ 71,100lbs or GE's CF6-80E1A3 rated at 72,000lbs? I think the difference here is much less than the difference between the 777's engines.
We often judge others by their actions, but ourselves by our intentions.
 
mt99
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 4:28 am

Define "Best".. I would argue that the "best" engine choice goes far from techinical reasons. Also price is a factor. So what id one is 3% more efficient if GE is giving me the engines for half price of the other?
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autothrust
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 5:25 am

My favourite is the Trent 700, its just so nice looking(with the A330) and its sound is so great. Though PW is also a very nice engine. I just love the typical RR sound.

Btw: add to the RR list Edelweiss Air. Big grin
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AirbusA6
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 5:33 am

I would suggest the market share evidence indicates that the T700 is the best choice. Bearing in mind, there were NO RR powered A300s and A310s, and hardly any on the 767, for RR to become market leader on the A330 suggests that the engine must be good, as most of the sales must have been 'conquests'!
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MaverickM11
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 8):
Rolls is a triple spool/shaft design

And that is...?
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PM
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 7:32 am

Quoting FlyDreamliner (Reply 12):
US bought PW 4000s because they buy PW for all of their widebodies

Nope. The only widebodies US had before the A330s were their 767s and they have GE. US even spurned PW for their 757s and took RR. In fact, outside planes where there was no choice like the MD-80, US could in no way be considered a PW customer. Their selection of the PW4000 for their A330s was actually a bit of a surprise.
 
trex8
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 9:43 am

A Rambling Thread On Aircraft Engines (by Lightsaber May 28 2006 in Civil Aviation)

see Lighsabers reply 8
 
UK_Dispatcher
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 3:10 pm

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
Air Luxor (What are they called now?)

HiFly

Quoting CHRISBA777ER (Reply 2):
Etihad (again)

Etihad chose the RR for all of their new A332s. They only operate(d) GE & PW powered A332s as they were leased from TAM and ILFC. The TAM ones have all been returned and the ILFC ones will probably be gone next year.
 
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jetmech
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 7:07 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
And that is...?

The RR Trent and RB-211 series of engines have a triple spool architecture. That is, there are three separate spools spinning concentrically within each other. RR terms them as, High Pressure (HP) spool, Intermediate Pressure (IP) spool and Low Pressure (LP) spool. The GE and P&W have two separate spools spinning concentrically within each other, these are termed the High Pressure (HP) spool and Low Pressure (LP) spool.

The T700 has the following arrangement;
(LP spool), Single stage LP compressor (Fan) driven by Four-stage LP turbine.
(IP spool), Eight-stage IP compressor driven by Single-stage IP turbine.
(HP spool), Six-stage HP compressor driven by Single-stage HP turbine.

The GE CF6-80E1 has the following arrangement;
(LP spool), Single stage LP compressor (Fan) + 3 stage LP booster driven by Five-stage LP turbine.
(HP spool), Fourteen-stage HP compressor driven by Two-stage HP turbine.

I couldn't find any direct information on the P&W 4168, but a generic P&W 4000 appears to have the following arrangement ;
(LP spool), Single stage LP compressor (Fan) + Four stage LP booster driven by Four-stage LP turbine.
(HP spool), Eleven-stage HP compressor driven by Two-stage HP turbine.

Regards, JetMech

[Edited 2007-05-22 12:08:11]
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F14D4ever
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 7:33 pm

Quoting JetMech (Reply 21):
The T700 has the following arrangement:

Your choice of shorthand notation confused me for a moment. In case it confused others, I'll jump in.

The T700 is a two spool turboshaft engine manufactured by General Electric. Certainly you were referring to the RR Trent 700, which is a three spool turbofan.

The Pratt 4168A has a five stage booster and five stage low pressure turbine, according to the annual Av Week Source Book.

[Edited 2007-05-22 12:47:38]
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Oykie
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 10:14 pm

SAS and others have experienced some troubles with the RR Trent on their A330. They had so many engine shut downs, that they feared of loosing their ETOPS certification. I do not know what the problems was, and how they solved it (if they solved it). It might have been that SAS was unfamiliar with the new RR engine, and therefore got the problems, but IIRC other airlines experienced this as well.
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Ferroviarius
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 10:36 pm

Quoting JetMech (Reply 21):
The RR Trent and RB-211 series of engines have a triple spool architecture. That is, there are three separate spools spinning concentrically within each other. RR terms them as, High Pressure (HP) spool, Intermediate Pressure (IP) spool and Low Pressure (LP) spool. The GE and P&W have two separate spools spinning concentrically within each other, these are termed the High Pressure (HP) spool and Low Pressure (LP) spool.

The T700 has the following arrangement;
(LP spool), Single stage LP compressor (Fan) driven by Four-stage LP turbine.
(IP spool), Eight-stage IP compressor driven by Single-stage IP turbine.
(HP spool), Six-stage HP compressor driven by Single-stage HP turbine.

The GE CF6-80E1 has the following arrangement;
(LP spool), Single stage LP compressor (Fan) + 3 stage LP booster driven by Five-stage LP turbine.
(HP spool), Fourteen-stage HP compressor driven by Two-stage HP turbine.

I couldn't find any direct information on the P&W 4168, but a generic P&W 4000 appears to have the following arrangement ;
(LP spool), Single stage LP compressor (Fan) + Four stage LP booster driven by Four-stage LP turbine.
(HP spool), Eleven-stage HP compressor driven by Two-stage HP turbine.

Regards, JetMech

Thanks, JetMech, for your detailed answer. I should like to complete with a link to

http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil_aerospace/technology/threeshaft.jsp

where the three shaft design - the expression "triple spool" is a little bit un-orthodox though very comprehensive - is presented and its advantages are presented. Obviously, this web page is made by Rolls Royce, one of the three western producers of large jet engines. A PW or GE engineer might start a discussion on whether the three shaft design really, really is better or not...

(In parenthesis, this discussion remembers me personally a little bit on the discussion going on from 1910 to approx. 1950, whether the "compound engine" or the "single expansion" engine is better for the steam locomotive. André Chapelons compounds DEFINITELY were MUCH better than, e.g., the German single expansion engines, as even Theodor Düring, one of the most reknown german experts in the field admits, but they were nevertheless more complicated to service and drive).


Also, there is a plethora of interesting books available on the subject. Try www.amazon.com, go for "Books" and search for "The Jet Engine".

On

http://www.rolls-royce.com/history/publications/jet_engine/default.htm

you'll find Rolls-Royce's own book on the issue (including a link to a web page for online purchase). I've bought that book and it's well written and interesting. However, it's not really a disadvantage if you've read some books on any other science subject dedicated to engineers, physicists and the like, before.

The subject is rather technical, and we might be banned from this forum if we go too much into detail, here.

Best wishes,

Ferroviarius
 
EA772LR
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Tue May 22, 2007 11:53 pm

So which engine has the best dispatch reliability rate, the fewest inflight shutdowns, and best service record?
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jacobin777
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Wed May 23, 2007 12:45 am

Quoting Trex8 (Reply 19):
A Rambling Thread On Aircraft Engines (by Lightsaber May 28 2006 in Civil Aviation)

see Lighsabers reply 8

..thanks for the link.. checkmark ....Fellow A.netter Lightsaber just got married over the weekend  champagne  so I'm sure he's got better things to do than explaining engine differences to us here on A.net.. biggrin 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Wed May 23, 2007 2:49 am

In short, a three spool design can have more optimized rotation speeds since the various impellers can be split into three groups rotating at different rates as opposed to just two groups. This can increase thrust and/or decrease fuel consumption.

However, there is added complexity and thus also weight involved due to the extra spool.

Is there a clear winner? Not really at this point.
Will everyone go to three spool in the future? Who knows. However everyone did go from one to two spool so maybe it is the next logical step.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
MarkC
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Wed May 23, 2007 7:28 am

PW considers the fan to be the first stage in the low pressure compressor.

4168's have 6 stage LPC's, 11 HPC, 2 HPT, 5 LPT.
94" 4000's have 5, 11, 2, 4 respectively.
4074/77/90's have 7, 11, 2, 7 respectively. Now thats one big LPT! Like a V2500 fan.
4098's (now gone) have 8, 11, 2, 7 respectively.

I think the increase in thrust between 4168 and 4168A is only to increase performance hot and high. I think they both top out at 68K. That rating could be easily increased.
 
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jetmech
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Wed May 23, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting F14D4ever (Reply 22):
The T700 is a two spool turbo-shaft engine manufactured by General Electric.

Yes of course, I should have written RR T-700. Is the GE T700 used on the AH-64 Apache?

Quoting Ferroviarius (Reply 24):
A PW or GE engineer might start a discussion on whether the three shaft design really, really is better or not...

That would be an awesomely educational and very interesting Tech / Ops discussion!

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 26):
Fellow A.netter Lightsaber just got married over the weekend

A honeymoon is no excuse for not posting in Tech / Ops  Wink ! On a serious note, congratulations Lightsaber!

Regards, JetMech
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mighluss
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Wed May 23, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 27):
everyone did go from one to two spool

A single spool design is a turbojet?

It has Fan-compressor and turbine in the same spool, or we can consider the "fan" (without by-pass air) a LP compressor?
Miquel.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Wed May 23, 2007 11:00 pm

Quoting Mighluss (Reply 30):
A single spool design is a turbojet?

It has Fan-compressor and turbine in the same spool, or we can consider the "fan" (without by-pass air) a LP compressor?

I guess in theory you could have a single spool turbofan with the fan rotating way too fast for optimal functioning.

AFAIK early jet designs (all turbojets of course) were one spool. There was even an earlier evolution as centrifugal flow gave way to axial flow.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
F14D4ever
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Wed May 23, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting Mighluss (Reply 30):
A single spool design is a turbojet?

A turbojet is a single-spool machine.

Quoting Mighluss (Reply 30):
It has Fan-compressor and turbine in the same spool, or we can consider the "fan" (without by-pass air) a LP compressor?

A turbojet does not have a fan, and there's really no point in using the 'LP' designation.
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F14D4ever
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Wed May 23, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting JetMech (Reply 29):
Is the GE T700 used on the AH-64 Apache?

Yes, on both the -A and -D models, and the AH-1 Super Cobra, UH-1Y Huey, Kaman SH-2G Super SeaSprite, EH-101 (Italian variant), all variants of the Sikorsky H/HH/MH/SH/UH-60 (mil) / S-70 (civil), and the VH-3 which, when the Prez is on board, takes the callsign 'Marine One'.
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F14D4ever
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Wed May 23, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting Ferroviarius (Reply 24):
A ... GE engineer might start a discussion on whether the three shaft design really, really is better or not...

Neither design is "really, really better" in a plenary sense. The more meaningful discussion would be: for what flight profiles is the three-spool better than the two-spool?

While working at GE in preliminary cycle design I ran some numbers on a notional three-spool engine which would have been derived from scaled GE90 components. It's great concept, more elegant than a simple two-spool engine. But the devil's in the details. You pay for the optimized component speeds with weight and complexity.
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Ferroviarius
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Fri May 25, 2007 7:16 pm

Quoting F14D4ever (Reply 34):
While working at GE in preliminary cycle design I ran some numbers on a notional three-spool engine which would have been derived from scaled GE90 components. It's great concept, more elegant than a simple two-spool engine. But the devil's in the details. You pay for the optimized component speeds with weight and complexity.

Well, I am not working and hence not an expert in the field and hence do not want to place any doubt on the general truth of your statement, but as far as I know, the TRENT800s are not so heavy as the GE90s - at which I compare engines of comparable thrust rating, e.g. GE90-94 vs. TRENT895 -, which even made ElAl select TRENTs instead of GEs for their 772ERs (causing some discussions in the US). I do not recall numbers by heart, but wasn't the weight difference as much as approx. 30 passengers? Thus, in spite of potentially burning more fuel than the two shaft design by GE, the TRENTs more than compensate for that by being considerable less in weight.

I hope my statement is correct.

Best,

Ferroviarius
 
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jetmech
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Fri May 25, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting Ferroviarius (Reply 35):
TRENTs more than compensate for that by being considerable less in weight.

Take what you will from their website, but RR claim that,

"the Trent being the lightest engine on the Boeing 777 weighing up to 8,000 lb less than its competitors"

RR do not specify if this is per engine or per shipset, but I would say it is for a shipset. RR does not make a similar claim for the Trent 700.

http://www.rolls-royce.com/civil_aer.../airlines/trent800/description.jsp

Regards, JetMech
JetMech split the back of his pants. He can feel the wind in his hair :shock: .
 
F14D4ever
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RE: Best Engine Option For The A330

Fri May 25, 2007 9:12 pm

Quoting Ferroviarius (Reply 35):
the TRENTs more than compensate for that by being considerable less in weight.

I may be guilty of parroting something I heard regarding the weight trade between two- and three-spool engines. When I hear 'three-spool' I remember the guys who took my three-spool thermo cycle data and used it in their weights and bill of materials software. They talked about more shafts and more bearings. But it could be that the Trent offsets that with fewer rotors and airfoils, and consequently a shorter case, on the strength of more optimal IP rotor speed & performance.

In fact the AvWeek Sourcebook says the 895 is considerably shorter and about 4,100 pounds lighter than the -94B.
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