Palladium
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Go Around Procedure?

Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:06 pm

I was wondering if there is a point when you really cannot abort the landing?

I know that a plane can abort a landing during final approach, but what about if it's a big plane like 747? can they abort the landing at the very last second before it touch down?

I was under impression that if a plane is too low and they powered up immediately, it will take some time to get the plane lift up doesn't it?
 
Pihero
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:37 pm

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
I was wondering if there is a point when you really cannot abort the landing?

In dire emergency, you can abort the landing up to the point where Thrust reversers are selected.
Pretty comforting thought, really.

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
I was under impression that if a plane is too low and they powered up immediately, it will take some time to get the plane lift up doesn't it?

One of the main aspects of a rejected landing is the engine spool-up time as these big fans have to accelerate from a reduced thrust to a g0-around full blast. Depending of the initial RPM, it would take 4/5 seconds to do so. Because of the airplane inertia, the IAS loss is marginal and the height loss is about -say,20 to 30 feet (my experience a Cat3 approach to land go-around at Decision Height means a possible touch down on the runway).
That said It doesn't apply to the Tristar as the go-around application would cause the DLC spoilers to retract, giving you a hefty extra lift, the beast zooms up into the sky !
Contrail designer
 
David L
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:17 pm

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
I was under impression that if a plane is too low and they powered up immediately, it will take some time to get the plane lift up doesn't it?

Here's my understanding, something I hope I learned correctly from this forum: An aircraft taking off from that runway from a standing start can make it. If you initiate a go around after touching down, you'd be starting your "take-off roll" approximately from your landing speed (as explained by Pihero) so you don't have to accelerate as much.

It's true that the aircraft taking off will start at the beginning of the runway so have more available, but if you pick the spot on the runway where the "go around" aircraft touches down and compare its speed there with the speed of the "taking off" aircraft at the same point, you'll see that the "go around" aircraft will probably be travelling at least as fast.

I recall something similar being illustrated with SlamClick Graphics (TM) but I haven't been on the course so won't attempt that.  Smile
 
pilotaydin
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Mon Jun 04, 2007 7:25 pm

you can go around even if you touchdown in the 737, that's why the engines remain in high idle 32% for 4 seconds after touchdown for reverse and for the need to push the power up again, otherwise they idle at low which takes a while to spool up...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
flyf15
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Tue Jun 05, 2007 1:59 am

On the CRJ, it isn't recommended to go-around once the mains have touched the ground due to the way the ground lift dumping system (spoilers) is configured. Although, if absolutely necessary, it can be done.
 
mandala499
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:32 am

Terrain issues aside...
Yes, anything up to deployment of reversers (assuming standard operating procedures require at least idle reversers), you can still abort.

Going around after reversers require you to reach idle again before positive thrust... which can take a long time... Even then, if you do go around after the reversers are deployed "there's no guarantee the reversers will not deploy in the air" or something like that... *can't be bothered to look and it all sounds to be too techie based for an explanation* Probably something to do with what PilotAydin explained.

Now there are some airports where you cannot miss approach/goaround after a certain point, even if you've landed... eg: at Tarakan it is not recommended... lack of terrain clearance if you go around on 06... Then there are some airports in Papua where after entering short finals, going around is definitely not an option... A friend went around once when clouds got in the way and he almost hit the mountain.

Quoting Palladium (Thread starter):
I know that a plane can abort a landing during final approach, but what about if it's a big plane like 747? can they abort the landing at the very last second before it touch down?

Well, planes do touch-and-goes... and there are procedures for it too...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
PGNCS
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 3:58 am

Across our fleet all manuals have advisories that during a go around/rejected landing from low altitude the aircraft may touch down on the runway. This is emphasized in Cat 3 training with the 50' AGL AH/DH.

I've done touch and go landings in the training environment in aircraft ranging from the DC-9, B-737-200, and A-320 all the way up to the B-747-400. As long as pre-established procedures are complied with it's not a problem. If reversers are ever deployed, go around is no longer possible (at least procedurally), and a touch and go will become a full stop landing.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:26 am

As some have pointed out, go-arounds can occur after touchdown. It is also important to note that if the decision to go around is made, the plane does not instantly start climbing again. There are a few factors at work here such as the speed of the pilots implementing the decision, engine spool up speed and finally Newton's First Law of Motion. The plane will keep moving downwards for a bit. Sometimes it will contact the ground during this "bit".

So even if you decided to go around before touchdown, the aircraft may well touch down before starting to climb again.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Spruit
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 5:49 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 6):
all the way up to the B-747-400.

What's the work load like in the cockpit with a go around in a 744, does anyone have a list of what happens when or a link to it for me to look at? Also, anyone have experience with this, actually touching down if only briefly, before initiating a go around in any airliner? And Why? Etc Etc.

Thanks,

Spru!
E=Mc2
 
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mighluss
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Fri Jun 08, 2007 6:45 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):
It doesn't apply to the Tristar

The Fokker 70/100, and Bae 146/ARJ, has those rear speedbrakes that they leave open during approach, to have engines in a higher regime, so if you have to go-around, the engines take less time to g/a power, and as you close the speedbrakes, you have a boost in performance.
Miquel.
 
prok
Posts: 36
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:07 pm

Quoting Spruit (Reply 8):
What's the work load like in the cockpit with a go around in a 744, does anyone have a list of what happens when or a link to it for me to look at?

Not a bigger workload then other jets I think.
TOGA, Flaps 20, check G/A thrust, gear up, set HDG/S or LNAV, level off, speed 200, set FLCH, flaps 10, flaps 5, set thrust (CLB or CON). Further cleanup depending on circumstances.

If you reject a landing on a 744 during an automatic landing after ROLLOUT capture (2 sec after passing 5 ft RA) thrust will increase, but AFDS will NOT provide a pitch up command, so A/P needs to be disconnected.
 
Pihero
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 8:52 pm

Prok,
you forgot to check the speedbrake retraction !

Mighluss,
Agree with you but the closing of the speedbrakes don't provide extra lift, just a decreased drag. On the other hand, the spoiler retraction on the Tristar will give you an undisturbed landing wing configuration [b[immediately[/b] with the restoration of all available lift. It's just like bouncing on an updraft.
Contrail designer
 
wilco737
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:58 pm

Hi guys,

on the MD11 you can initiate the go around at any time until the thrust reverser are unlocked and start to open.
Even when the ground spoiler have been extended you can initiate the go around. just push the go around button, the ATS (auto thrust system) advances the thrust levers to G/A thrust, the ground spoiler are fully retracted and the flight director commands you the correct speed (pitch) and the current heading/track. CAUTION: if you have touched down already and then initiate the go around, watch for the pitch! Max is 7° airplane nose up. Reduces the risk of a tail strike. Slowly the MD11 lifts off and then you can use the normal pitch (around 15°) and retract the flaps to 28°, once you have a positive rate of climb: gear up and up we go  Wink And the climb performance is AMAZING Big grin

At my company it is recommended to engage the autopilot shortly after it and let the AP fly the missed approach procedure...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
Pihero
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 12):
And the climb performance is AMAZING

On the minibus family, that climb performance is so good that you could run rthe risk of busting all speed / altitude constraints.
That's the reason why experienced pilots engage the thrust levers into the TOGA detent, verify that the G0-around profile is engaged and then retard the levers to the CLB detent. Much more comfortable.!
Contrail designer
 
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flylku
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:13 am

I recall while studying for my instrument rating that the Airman's Information Manual explicitly points out that in larger aircraft on approaches to very low minimums it is possible that on a missed approach (obviously executed at the DH on something like a CAT II or III approach) the pilot may feel the aircraft touch the runway. I think the note is there to caution pilots not to try and salvage an approach in such a situation. Anybody else remember this reference?
...are we there yet?
 
buckfifty
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 13):
That's the reason why experienced pilots engage the thrust levers into the TOGA detent, verify that the G0-around profile is engaged and then retard the levers to the CLB detent. Much more comfortable.!

Never heard of that before, especially in a 330, nevermind a 340. Always try to keep it in TOGA until THR RED ALT, unless if there's an intermediate level off in the GA procedure before the thrust reduction altitude. Never seen a procedure like that, though. Always enough pitch available to keep the A/C flying at the SRS speed as long as we keep climbing. But then, don't know about the minibuses, maybe the performance is much better, even compared to a 330.

And what's with that 22' DH on the CAT IIIB down at your end of things?
 
Pihero
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RE: Go Around Procedure?

Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:11 am

Quoting FlyLKU (Reply 14):
I think the note is there to caution pilots not to try and salvage an approach in such a situation. Anybody else remember this reference?

Still exists on a few flight manuals.

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 15):
Never heard of that before

That applies to Go-arounds for other reasons than minima. Imagine at 600 ft or above the thrust reduction is anywhere between 1000 to 1500 ft AGL. The initial vertical speed is way over 4000ft/min with a target body angle around 20°. You really need to be switched-on in order not to be overtaken by the airplane !

Quoting BuckFifty (Reply 15):
And what's with that 22' DH on the CAT IIIB down at your end of things?

As a matter of fact, the exact figure is 20ft. But you have to add that the Go-around is on automatic. Gives you less work as it is mainly monitoring the AP behaviour.
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