auslimbo
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:52 pm

747 A-Zone Fwd Row Aisle Width

Wed Jun 20, 2007 7:08 pm

Hi gents & ladies,

I've asked this question on a different forum, but unfortunately nobody was able to answer.
So hopefully one of the local guru's here can assist...

I'm looking for the minimum required aisle width for the first row of seats in the A Zone of a 747.
I've heard that there is an exemption to the FAR25.815 requirements for this row, but can't find a reference document.
Could someone therefore inform me in which document I can find this exemption? (please note that I am looking for a Boeing or FAA document and not a Lopa or Seat Installation drawing).

Cheers
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: 747 A-Zone Fwd Row Aisle Width

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:06 am

Where I work, we still have to comply with 25.815 in zone A.
Considering the massive furniture that some customers are proposing, an exemption might be handy.

Tod
 
auslimbo
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:52 pm

RE: 747 A-Zone Fwd Row Aisle Width

Thu Jun 21, 2007 7:37 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 1):
Where I work, we still have to comply with 25.815 in zone A.

Thanks for your reply Tod. Of course the rest of A-Zone still has to comply with 25.815.
Since I've never seen a document stating this exemption, I sincerely hope it's not a fairy tale.
A-Zone is such a tapered section that it would be handy if the front row seats could be put closer together so that they can be positioned closer to the bulkhead. Therefore perhaps adding another seat at low pitch (of course only certain customers would want this). And yes, also with the increasing sizes of furniture it would be very handy.

Tod, have you had any experience with other a/c that have a similar configuration as this? (seating in tapered section directly aft of the fwd bulkhead with cockpit at a different level)
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: 747 A-Zone Fwd Row Aisle Width

Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:03 am

Then there was the 744 zone A from hell (still 25.815 compliant):

Big version: Width: 1275 Height: 1649 File size: 179kb


Tod
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 17208
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: 747 A-Zone Fwd Row Aisle Width

Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting Tod (Reply 3):
Then there was the 744 zone A from hell (still 25.815 compliant):

Corsair? I know they have a Pope Seat.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: 747 A-Zone Fwd Row Aisle Width

Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
Corsair?

 checkmark 

Tod
 
auslimbo
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:52 pm

RE: 747 A-Zone Fwd Row Aisle Width

Sat Jun 23, 2007 2:48 pm

Quoting Tod (Reply 3):
Then there was the 744 zone A from hell

So why was this the A-Zone from hell?

I might be out of line with asking so many project related questions, but I'm curious to know what is so special about this reconfig that makes it the A-Zone from hell.
I'm also not sure what your starting configuration looked like, so forgive me if these questions sound stupid....

I'm assuming you might have had to add seat tracks for the center seats, with accompanying floor board modifications. Any further changes to the floor structure? Or adding of seat tracks on LH & RH as well?

Any load issues with the amount of seats? Obviously a structural load analysis had to be done, but did it lead to structural modifications of the floor structure?

Adding sidewall disconnects or center floorboxes wouldn't be too much of a hassle, so did you encounter any drama's with this? (apart from maybe adding a sidewall disconnect at those awkward locations where the flight control cables run). Were there further issues with IFE/Seat Power/ (PC Power?) runs?

Reworking the Dado's? Was that because of something installed in the previous configuration or a problem that occurred along the way? I'm assuming that reworking of the Dado's means modifying the existing panels and not a removal & replacement.

Rework PSU's? Again, is this a modification of the existing PSU's, or just shuffling around and installation of new PSU units because of the seat layout change?

Bin removals/installations? (with additional oxy/gasper/psu drama's?)
Sidewall changes?

Also, is there still easy access to go down to the avionics bay? The seats look like they are close to the access panel and would make it very narrow for someone to go down..... Might seem like a stupid question but it was just bugging me to know since I don't have the cad file to see for myself.....


Sorry for all the questions Tod, but I'm still a grasshopper in the field of reconfigs and the best way for me to learn is from the experiences of the guys that have been working in the industry for many years.....
So I would appreciate if you could inform me of the major problems you incurred and what the solution was.


Cheers
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: 747 A-Zone Fwd Row Aisle Width

Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 6):
So why was this the A-Zone from hell?

From an engineering standpoint it was not bad, I just pity the pax that get to experience 57 seats in an area that typically has 12 - 20 seats. Even standing looking at all those seats empty felt more than a bit cozy.

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 6):

I'm also not sure what your starting configuration looked like,

UA first class configuration with 14 seats designed by Flight Structures around 1995.

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 6):
I'm assuming you might have had to add seat tracks for the center seats, with accompanying floor board modifications. Any further changes to the floor structure? Or adding of seat tracks on LH & RH as well?

Any load issues with the amount of seats? Obviously a structural load analysis had to be done, but did it lead to structural modifications of the floor structure?

There was some rework to the floor structure and floor panel. I was not directly involved with that part but I don't recall a lot of drama. Flight Structures had already beefed up the floor for their mod.

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 6):
Adding sidewall disconnects or center floorboxes wouldn't be too much of a hassle, so did you encounter any drama's with this? (apart from maybe adding a sidewall disconnect at those awkward locations where the flight control cables run). Were there further issues with IFE/Seat Power/ (PC Power?) runs?

No in-seat IFE or PC power so it was not too complicated.

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 6):
Reworking the Dado's? Was that because of something installed in the previous configuration or a problem that occurred along the way? I'm assuming that reworking of the Dado's means modifying the existing panels and not a removal & replacement.

Rapic decompression issues had to be addressed, but I don't recall the details. New dados and sidewalls had to added in the forward-most location because United had a closet in that location.

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 6):
Rework PSU's? Again, is this a modification of the existing PSU's, or just shuffling around and installation of new PSU units because of the seat layout change?

Adding additional PSU was just a juggling and cramming drill.

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 6):
Bin removals/installations?

nope

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 6):
Also, is there still easy access to go down to the avionics bay? The seats look like they are close to the access panel and would make it very narrow for someone to go down?

The hatch can be a problem. They can be slightly relocated further inboard or outboard. The size can also be slightly reduced. We did not have to deal with it this time because Flight Structures installed a reduced size hatch during a previous reconfiguration.

Tod
 
auslimbo
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:52 pm

RE: 747 A-Zone Fwd Row Aisle Width

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:50 am

Hi Tod,

thanks for the previous post & clarification.
I have just found the reference I was looking for and thought I'd share it with you.


As per Boeing D6-36230 (Chapter B1-5.1.1 Aisle Clearances, Page B1-7):

"The FAA approved minimum aisle width for the front row of seats in Zone
A is, 12 inches up to a height of 25 inches above the floor and 18 inches at
or above a height of 25 inches above the floor."


It's not much different from 25.815 (15 inches and 20 inches), but in it might just help that little bit in those "A-Zones from hell"......
 
Tod
Posts: 1709
Joined: Sat Aug 28, 2004 6:51 am

RE: 747 A-Zone Fwd Row Aisle Width

Mon Jul 16, 2007 11:59 pm

Thanks Auslimbo!

Got that D6 document sitting right in front of me now.

Quoting Auslimbo (Reply 8):
As per Boeing D6-36230 (Chapter B1-5.1.1 Aisle Clearances, Page B1-7):

"The FAA approved minimum aisle width for the front row of seats in Zone
A is, 12 inches up to a height of 25 inches above the floor and 18 inches at
or above a height of 25 inches above the floor."

Since the FAA has allowed Boeing this exception on this model of aircraft they might also allow others to do so on that same model. It should definately grease the skids with the FAA the next time the subject comes up.

cheers,
Tod

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