Blackbird
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DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:35 am

How big are the DC-8's and the DC-10's windows in terms of width and height? Also what are the window-spacing on these two aircraft? Additionally, while I know the B-707's windows are 9" x 12.5" inches, what is the spacing between the two windows on the 707?


BTW:While somewhat off topic, I do wonder: Did Douglas's use of large windows on the DC-8 influence the Lear 23/24B's large windows? Or were they totally unrelated?

Andrea Kent
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:02 pm

The DC-8 windows are spaced 40 inches on center, and was designed that way to match up with the 40" seat pitch.

Chris
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Tue Jul 03, 2007 12:23 pm

Quoting N8076U (Reply 1):
The DC-8 windows are spaced 40 inches on center, and was designed that way to match up with the 40" seat pitch.

The windows matched up with the 40 inch pitch in first class, but it also meant that the DC-8 windows didn't line up with many economy class rows where the usual standard then was 34 inches, at least on international flights. However the DC-8's windows were large enough that you usually had at least a sliver of a window.

Boeing's much smaller windows adopted on the 707 and subsequent models meant that every row had at least one window. Douglas adopted that strategy on the DC-9 and subsequent models. The DC-10 and MD-11 had larger windows than on the Boeing types but they were still much more closely spaced than on the DC-8 so all seats had a window.

The Douglas decision to use the large windows on the DC-8 matching the usual first class seat pitch then was no doubt influenced by the fact that first class was still the primary product in the mid-50s when the DC-8 was designed, and economy class, where offered, usually occupied the smallest proportion of the cabin. However not long after the 707 and DC-8 went into service, the situation quickly started to reverse itself and as demand for air travel increased due to the lower fares made possible by the jets, Y class cabins started growing and F class shrinking. Had Douglas foreseen those market changes, they probably would have used smaller, closely-spaced windows as they did on the DC-9.

The big DC-8 windows certainly permitted an excellent view as long as there was one adjacent to your seat.
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:10 am

Found some cabin window info in one of my manuals. DC-8 cabin windows are 17 1/8" wide x 20 5/8" high. The emergency exit hatch windows are a bit smaller, at 16 1/8" wide x 20 5/8" high.
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
The big DC-8 windows certainly permitted an excellent view as long as there was one adjacent to your seat.

I flew to Europe in 1989 in a DC-8, and on the return flight I was stuck in a "window" seat without a window. Didn't like it at all. I much prefer smaller windows that I can see out of.
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:18 am

Was there any evidence to suggest that Economy Class would become far more popular with the jets?

Andrea K
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:59 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 2):
The Douglas decision to use the large windows on the DC-8 matching the usual first class seat pitch then was no doubt influenced by the fact that first class was still the primary product in the mid-50s when the DC-8 was designed, and economy class, where offered, usually occupied the smallest proportion of the cabin.

When the DC-8-63 entered service in the late 60s, window spacing remained the same. No effort was made to alter the 40 inch spacing for obvious reasons due to frame spacing in the fuselage structure. However, there were operators (CP Air for example) which had an extra window between 2 frames which normally had no window, placing it very close to the window in front of it. Apparently structural integrity was not an issue with 2 windows so close to each other. Does anyone know what the function of this extra window was at this particular position? See below:

Big version: Width: 600 Height: 447 File size: 57kb


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Regards,
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:44 am

Regarding the DC-8... was there any evidence to suggest to Douglas Aircraft Corporation that Coach-Seating would become a much larger portion of aircraft seating?

I'm just wondering because Boeing had smaller windows spaced closer together, almost as if they saw it coming. Was this because Boeing had a few more years to develop the 707 than Douglas did the DC-8? Or was this no factor?

Regarding the double-window on the back of the CPAir DC-8-63's, I have no idea why it was placed there.

Andrea K
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Thu Jul 05, 2007 2:16 am

Okay, how about the DC-10? What's it's window size and spacing? I've flown on DC-10's -- their windows are almost certainly larger-- which to my knowledge is one of the DC-10's redeeming characteristics.

Regarding the DC-8 though... does anybody have any answers to my last question?

Andrea K
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Fri Jul 06, 2007 4:03 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 7):
Regarding the DC-8... was there any evidence to suggest to Douglas Aircraft Corporation that Coach-Seating would become a much larger portion of aircraft seating?

I found some more early DC-8 information from a 1958 study guide. It states that the cabin windows were sized as such because "this arrangement provides good forward, aft, upward and downward passenger vision".

It further states that there is one window spaced 40" on center adjacent to each outboard seat. As of June 1958, the aircraft was to have both a first-class and a tourist class all at the same pitch, the difference being a wider four-abreast seating in first, versus the six-abreast in tourist. It was also to have a lounge area with seating for eight. The seat tracks did allow for adjustments in one-inch increments.

Starglider, a lot of UA's DC-8-61s had that "double window" arrangement as well in the left rear. Originally, between the last row of coach seats on the left side and the left rear entry door was a "mini-lounge". This consisted of a special double seat, which I suppose HAD to be a window seat, so one could relax and enjoy the view while drinking a scotch on the rocks. On the right side directly across from that lounge was a galley, so no extra window there.

I suppose Douglas could have put in some more windows here and there, but the extra structure and the windows themselves are very heavy. Just the window assembly alone (outer and inner pane) is 15 pounds, as the outer pane is 17/32" thick and the inner pane is 7/16" thick.

Chris
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Fri Jul 06, 2007 7:56 pm

Quoting N8076U (Reply 9):
a lot of UA's DC-8-61s had that "double window" arrangement as well in the left rear. Originally, between the last row of coach seats on the left side and the left rear entry door was a "mini-lounge". This consisted of a special double seat, which I suppose HAD to be a window seat, so one could relax and enjoy the view while drinking a scotch on the rocks.

N8076U, thanks for the info. Recalling my experience, traveling on the -63 in the back, that scotch would be "shaken and stirred" when sitting in such a mini-lounge with the "snaking motion" sensed in the rear of the plane.

By the way, when flying on the -63, which was in a charter configuration, i remember that where ever i was seated, in front, over, or behind the wing ,there was always a reasonable to good view through those large windows.

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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:08 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 8):
Okay, how about the DC-10? What's it's window size and spacing? I've flown on DC-10's -- their windows are almost certainly larger-- which to my knowledge is one of the DC-10's redeeming characteristics.

Fuselage frame spacing should be similar to the MD11(20 inches), so the DC-10 window spacing is 20 inches. I flew on the DC-10 many times and i don't recall them as being any larger than on the B747 which incidentally also has a 20 inch frame/window spacing.


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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:05 pm

I looked at a Trans-Canada Air Lines DC-8-40 Operating Manual of 1961 and it showed the cabin layout as originally envisioned by Douglas. That is the whole aircraft had 40" pitch, 4 abreast in First Class and 6 abreast in Economy.

Also, just for information, the First Class cabin took up almost half of the aircraft, with the bar/lounge in the front two lavs, galley/closets, then 7 rows of seats with the last row having the forward overwing exit. Economy of course, took up the rest of the aircraft. There was no Economy lounge, but there were four lavs in the rear, as opposed to only three as had most early carriers.

In 1963, First Class was reduced from 28 to 16 on all aircraft with the introduction of the DC-8-54JTs. Seat pitch in Economy was reduced at that time to the (then) horrific 36"! Seat pitch in Economy in the Air Canada DC-8s (DC-8-40/50/60) stayed at 36" until the DC-8-63s were re-equipped with "widebody" interiors in 1980. At that time, the seat pitch was reduced to 34".

I used to look at the DC-8 manuals to see which rows had windows, partial windows, or NO windows, and kept this list with me when choosing a seat from the big seat charts with stickers at the gates. When you are an airline geek at 10 years old, you do stuff like this!  Smile
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:02 am

Quoting N8076U (Reply 9):
Starglider, a lot of UA's DC-8-61s had that "double window" arrangement as well in the left rear.

The "double window" is on both sides on many DC-8-61s and -63s as you'll see if you check some A.net photos. The -60 series DC-8s had several optional cabin layouts with different galley and emergency exit locations, and with or without the forward lounge.

[Edited 2007-07-08 01:10:00]
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:51 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
The "double window" is on both sides on many DC-8-61s and -63s as you'll see if you check some A.net photos. The -60 series DC-8s had several optional cabin layouts with different galley and emergency exit locations, and with or without the forward lounge.

I won't argue with that. Of course, there were many, many variations. Even the instrument layout in the cockpit was custom-tailored to the customer's specifications. Douglas was infamous for this in regards to the DC-8, and the inside joke was that no two DC-8s are alike.

However, the specific configuration I mentioned...

Quoting N8076U (Reply 9):
Starglider, a lot of UA's DC-8-61s had that "double window" arrangement as well in the left rear. Originally, between the last row of coach seats on the left side and the left rear entry door was a "mini-lounge". This consisted of a special double seat, which I suppose HAD to be a window seat, so one could relax and enjoy the view while drinking a scotch on the rocks. On the right side directly across from that lounge was a galley, so no extra window there.

...was in reference to the UA DC-8-61s, not all DC-8s. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. I thought it would make more sense and would be more interesting to use a real-world example to explain the purpose of those extra windows.

Interestingly, it appears (as far as I can determine from the A.net database) that all of the UA DC-8-61s and their -62s had that extra window on the left rear. However, there is only one UA DC-8-61 that you will find in the DB with the extra window on the right side, and that was an ex-JAL bird, N8177U, which wasn't originally ordered to United's specs.

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Blackbird
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:56 am

Why did Douglas (and Convair actually) plan to use the same seat pitch for FC and Coach? Why didn't they just do 40" for FC and 34" - 36" for Coach? Was this learned by experience, or was there another reason Douglas made this choice? Also, what did Boeing use for coach seat-pitch?

Also, why did (McDonnell) Douglas use smaller windows on the DC-10 than the DC-8, I mean from my experience flying on DC-10's they definetly provided adequate visibility. Thank you (Starglider) for providing me with the 20-inch spacing figure for the DC-10.

Does anybody know how large the DC-10's pax windows are? They are larger than the 707/720/CV-880/727/737/747/757/767 windows, although rounder at the edges...

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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:52 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 15):
Also, why did (McDonnell) Douglas use smaller windows on the DC-10 than the DC-8

I'm sure it was to avoid the problem that occurred on the DC-8 where the widely-spaced large windows resulted in some seats in Y class not having a window at the typical 34 inch seat pitch that became the standard for most carriers. If the larger DC-8 windows had been moved closer together it probably would have created certain structural issues.
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:36 am

When did 36" inch and 34" pitches become standard?

Andrea K
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Tue Jul 10, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 17):
When did 36" inch and 34" pitches become standard?

I don't think 36" was ever a standard, but the 34" maximum seat pitch was the IATA standard (agreed by member airlines) for economy class on international routes for many years. I'm guessing it probably came into effect in the early 1960s, soon after the 707 and DC-8 went into service. If memory correct, 42" was the maximum pitch then for first class, and of course business class didn't exist until the late 1970s, and when first introduced it was usually only 3 or 4" more than economy class.

Now there are no standards for such things and carriers do whatever they want, but in economy class the trend has of course been to reduced seat pitches. Carriers with 34" pitch in Y class are very rare now.
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:05 am

Why didn't Boeing use huge widely spaced windows then? Didn't they use 40-inch pitches as standards?

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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Wed Jul 11, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 15):
Does anybody know how large the DC-10's pax windows are?

DC-10 (and MD11) pax. window size:

Pax. window panes are 16.9 inch high and 11 inch wide. The pane fits over/into the window frame (the frame you see through from the inside) which is 15.7 inch high and 9.8 inch wide. So actual window size is 15.7 in. by 9.8 in.


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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Wed Jul 11, 2007 6:48 am

Starglider,

Why didn't they just make them 15.7" x 9.8" on the inside and outside?


Andrea K
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:49 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 21):
Why didn't they just make them 15.7" x 9.8" on the inside and outside?

The window panes (outer and inner pane are one assembly) are larger than the window frame which is part of the fuselage structure. The overlap is to secure the panes into the smaller window frame with a seal between pane and frame.

See illustration (speaks more than a thousand words):



Big version: Width: 600 Height: 573 File size: 36kb




Starglider
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:03 pm

So it's a triple paned window? Why is that necessary?

Andrea K
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:38 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 23):
So it's a triple paned window? Why is that necessary?

The outer pane takes the pressure load.

The inner pane is designed to withstand the pressure load if the outer pane fails, thus, a fail safe construction.

The anacoustical pane has no pressure bearing function but is there for aesthetic reasons, to reduce noise, and to protect the pressure bearing outer and inner panes from passengers that can't keep their hands off things that need to be protected.

Starglider.
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:04 am

Starglider,
Is this how most airplane's windows are set up?

Also... how come even though IATA didn't set 34" seat-pitch as standard, Boeing had it's windows closer together? Was there some rumblings before hand about reduced seat pitch in the future?


Andrea Kent

[Edited 2007-07-12 22:09:12]
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 25):
Also... how come even though IATA didn't set 34" seat-pitch as standard, Boeing had it's windows closer together? Was there some rumblings before hand about reduced seat pitch in the future?

I expect the 20 inch spacing between window frames was more related to structural issues. The closely-spaced small windows offer much more flexibility when changing seating configurations, not only seat pitch but differing numbers of first and economy class seats. When the Fokker 50 replaced the F-27, one of the more visible changes was replacement of the widely-spaced large windows with smaller, closely-spaced windows, to ensure that all seats had access to a window regardless of seat pitch.


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Blackbird
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:54 am

So, Boeing had no intention to produce a more versatile seating layout when creating the window-dimensions and spacing for the B-707?

Or did they have an intention to provide greater versatility?


Andrea K
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 25):
Starglider,
Is this how most airplane's windows are set up?

With some minor differences in details such as attachment to the airframe, yes.

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
So, Boeing had no intention to produce a more versatile seating layout when creating the window-dimensions and spacing for the B-707?

Or did they have an intention to provide greater versatility?

Boeing had a more versatile aircraft from the start when compared to the DC-8. The B707 was offered in different fuselage lengths from the start to meet customer requirements. The DC-8 initially only had one fuselage length to offer, this changed later on when it was apparent that sales lagged behind when compared to the B707, with the introduction of the DC-8-60 series.

To put the first generation jet airliners in perspective, by the Fall of 1957 the race was essentially over, with an undeclared victory in favor of Boeing. The Douglas reputation (the DC-8 having superior range over the initial B707) had been overcome. The score was 145 over 124 aircraft ordered in favor of the B707. As the gap continued to expand, the chronicle of events which followed served only to justify Boeing's investment and gamble in the B707. By the Fall of 1966, Boeing had sold 1,350 jet airliners, an amount almost equal to all other jet transports produced in the free world combined. This is especially remarkable in the light of the fact that the total world market for jet transports by 1970 was considered to be only 500 to 600 units, in 1953, the pre-dawn era of the jet age. With that in mind it becomes clear what kind of passengers would make use of jet travel, those who could afford it. That all changed as soon as jet travel caught on beyond predictions.

So when the B707 and DC-8 started operating on the routes they were designed for, air travel was still more first class oriented. In the late 50s and early 60s ocean liners were still transporting "the masses" across the Atlantic in 6 or 7 days time because air travel was too expensive. I personally crossed the ocean by steamer to and from the States in the 60s for this reason. At the end of the 60s most steamers went to the scrap heap because air travel won the competition over sea travel. That is when economy class cabins had become a standard larger part of the cabin lay-out and first class was considerably reduced in size.


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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:27 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 27):
So, Boeing had no intention to produce a more versatile seating layout when creating the window-dimensions and spacing for the B-707?

The airlines determine the seating layout (seat pitch) not the manufacturer. Seat tracks are generally designed so seats can be moved in 1 inch increments. The aircraft design (cabin width) of course puts an upper limiit on the number of seats abreast.
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:09 am

So, Douglas had no reason to believe that the seating pitch would ever reduce to 34", and saw no reason in using smaller windows as a result? Am I wrong?

Was Douglas also unable to use longer variants due to the extra cost to make it work?


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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:02 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 30):
So, Douglas had no reason to believe that the seating pitch would ever reduce to 34", and saw no reason in using smaller windows as a result? Am I wrong?


In the early days, no (launch customer driven). Later on, in the mid 60s, yes because the market was changing with increasing demand in air travel, but:

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 30):
Was Douglas also unable to use longer variants due to the extra cost to make it work?


Douglas did develop longer variants with improved turbofan engines:

DC-8-61 with dramatically increased fuselage length, fitted with wings and engines of the DC-8-50,
DC-8-62 with a moderately increased fuselage length when compared to the DC-8-50 and a new aerodynamically improved wing with increased wingspan and wash-out at the tips. And improved JT3D-7 turbofan engines in new nacelles.
DC-8-63 with the increased fuselage length of the -61 and wing and engines/nacelles of the -62.

See illustration with different fuselage lengths below:

Big version: Width: 1024 Height: 809 File size: 73kb


The reason Douglas did not go for smaller/increased amount of cabin windows can probably be traced to the dire financial condition Douglas was in at the time. Mostly due to problems with DC-9 production issues and lagging sales of the DC-8-10 thru 50 series. In the period these stretched DC-8-60 series were developed, Douglas merged with McDonnell to survive. The -60 series therefore never carried the name Douglas but McDonnell-Douglas. The stretched and versatile DC-8s (full pax, convertible- and full freighters) boosted orders in the mid sixties, and resulted in the sale of an additional 263 aircraft by the time production ended in 1972. Bringing the total of DC-8s produced to 556.


Starglider

[Edited 2007-07-14 23:09:54]
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:59 pm

The launch customers all sat 40" seat pitch across the whole cabin? None of them used a different pitch at first?

Wow,

Andrea Kent
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Mon Jul 16, 2007 2:35 am

What was Boeing's initial seat-pitch for coach?

Also... was there indications that would suggest that eventually air travel would exceed that of ship-travel during the time the DC-8 and 707 were being developed... like was there indications that every year the amount of people transported by aircraft was creeping up, and the amount of people traveling by ship was creeping down?

Andrea Kent
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Mon Jul 16, 2007 3:21 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 32):
The launch customers all sat 40" seat pitch across the whole cabin? None of them used a different pitch at first?

I don't think that is correct. I'm almost certain that many early 707 and DC-8 customers had significantly less than 40 inch pitch in economy class when the aircraft went into service.
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:18 am

I do not know what size they were but I can tell you that they were adjusted with a bag ful of shot. There had to be a certain distance between the fuselage skin and the edge of the raised portion of the window. Sometimes the windows had to be moved a bit. I got tasked to check the windows on a Delta MD11 and wrote up half the windows as having insufficient gap in one place or another.

I had made up a loop of the correct sized wire as a go-no go gauge.

They never asked me to do that again
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Mon Jul 16, 2007 10:46 am

Viscount724,

What were the seat-pitch arrangements for the DC-8's launch customers?

To Dougloid,

Also, what's a bag-full of shot?


Andrea K
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Mon Jul 16, 2007 12:26 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 36):
Viscount724,

What were the seat-pitch arrangements for the DC-8's launch customers?

To Dougloid,

Also, what's a bag-full of shot?


Andrea K

Heck, Andrea I thought you were a trapshooter....a bag of shot is just that-a bag of shot. Like a canvas bag full of BBs.
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:33 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 36):
Viscount724,

What were the seat-pitch arrangements for the DC-8's launch customers?

Almost 50 years later that information is going to be rather difficult to find! As far as I know, UA did offer the same seat pitch in both F and Y classes initially on their early DC-8s. I'm not sure how long that lasted. My first DC-8 flight (of many) was in 1963 and it certainly didn't have 40 inch pitch in economy class. My first UA DC-8 flight was in 1967 and I'm sure it had roughly 34 inch pitch in Y class.

Since UA had no international routes then (except YVR and YYZ) they weren't subject to IATA standards on things like seat pitch, so they could do whatever they wanted, but by the mid-60s they had generally adopted the 34 inch pitch standard for Y class.

At some point in the mid-60s UA also briefly offered 3-class service on longer routes using DC-8s (possibly also on their Boeing 720s but I can't remember). The intermediate class was called Standard Class and had 5-abreast seating at greater pitch than in Y class which was the usual 6-abreast. Not sure how long that service was offered but don't believe it was more than a year or two. NW also had a similar 5-abreast product on their Boeing 720B fleet but in their case, if memory correct, the entire aircraft had the 5-abreast seating and it was sold as Y class. Don't think that lasted very long either before they went back to 6-abreast and reinstated a first class cabin on the 720Bs.
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:29 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):

Well, it did seem to me that there was a possibility that you meant something other than that particular definition, since it was regarding the measuring of an airplane's window...


To Viscount 724,

Was it essential to get Douglas to be selected over Boeing by it's launch customers to have the bigger windows, and the assumption of using 40-inch pitch seating? After all, it was mentioned that some launch customers did have seat-pitches shorter than 40-inches in coach. Was that at the date of their launch? And were they seating six-across when they made this selection?


Andrea K
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[Edited 2007-07-16 18:31:07]
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 39):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 37):


Well, it did seem to me that there was a possibility that you meant something other than that particular definition, since it was regarding the measuring of an airplane's window...

That was the way the knuckledraggers adjusted the position of the window within the frame, by smacking it with a shot bag in the direction they wanted to move it.
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 39):
Was it essential to get Douglas to be selected over Boeing by it's launch customers to have the bigger windows, and the assumption of using 40-inch pitch seating? After all, it was mentioned that some launch customers did have seat-pitches shorter than 40-inches in coach. Was that at the date of their launch? And were they seating six-across when they made this selection?

I don't think Douglas considered any other window design for the DC-8 than the large windows they used, but I could be wrong. I would assume customers that planned from the beginning to use seat pitches less than the window spacing would have taken that into account when they made their decision between Boeing and Douglas. Other issues like pricing and the fact that quite a few long-time Douglas customers decided to stick with Douglas rather than switching to Boeing, were probably bigger factors than the windows. And many were already operating propeller types with economy seating that didn't match the window spacing on those aircraft. Pan Am of course ordered both 707s and DC-8s to ensure there would be competition and help keep prices as low as possible, but they sold their 20 DC-8s after about 8 years service to simplify the fleet.

If I recall correctly, Boeing oriignaly considered a 707 design that could only handle 5-abreast seating. The original Dash 80 prototype was only wide enough for 5-abreast. The KC-135 was wider and I believe Boeing originally planned to use that design for the 707 also, but later widened another 4 inches or so when they learned that the DC-8 was going to be slightly wider than the intended 707 design.
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:22 pm

Unfortunately, I don't know how to upload/show a scan in one of these messages, but I am looking at the DC-8-40 seat plan from a DC-8 Operating Manual of Trans-Canada from 1961.

Seat pitch was the same for First Class and Economy, with 4 abreast for F and 6 abreast for Y.

TCA did not reduce its seat pitch in Economy from 40" until the introduction of the DC-8-54F.
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Wed Jul 18, 2007 3:30 am

Douglas must have known that some launch customers weren't going to seat 40"-pitch... so why didn't they just use a different window, perhaps a DC-10 type with a 20-inch spacing? Definetly do-able, and that way no matter where you're seated you got a window, whether in FC or Coach?

Andrea K
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Thu Jul 19, 2007 8:11 am

Don Douglas Sr was very known for his integrity,

Was Douglas contractually obligated, or committed to the large window and 40-inch spacing? Or could they have physically (as they enlarged the DC-8 from the smaller 5-abreast design to the larger 6-abreast design) adjusted the window-size or spacing.

Also... if the skin's thickness and sturdiness was as thick as a CV-880, could they have put those huge windows 20" apart from each other (if they were a bit more rounded at the edge?)?


Andrea K
"Private Cowboy, Private Joker! As soon as you finish your bunks, I want you two turds to clean the head: I want that head so sanitary and squared-away that the Virgin Mary, herself, would be *PROUD* to go in there and take a dump!"
- Gunnery Sergeant Hartman
Full-Metal Jacket (1987)
 
Viscount724
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:51 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 44):
Also... if the skin's thickness and sturdiness was as thick as a CV-880, could they have put those huge windows 20" apart from each other (if they were a bit more rounded at the edge?)?

I'm no structural expert, but just eyeballing any DC-8 photo, to double the number of windows which would be the result of adopting the Boeing 20" spacing, there would be almost no room between the windows for the structural members, so I highly doubt it would be possible without significantly smaller windows.

By the way, the Caravelle's unusual triangular-shaped windows were also quite large and widely-spaced like the DC-8 so they had similar issues of seats that didn't line up with the windows depending on the seat pitch. At least UA didn't have that problem with their 20 Caravelles as they operated in an all-first class configuration.
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:42 am

If anybody has an answer
What launch customers used seating layouts less than 40-inches?

Andrea K
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Fri Jul 20, 2007 7:22 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 46):
If anybody has an answer
What launch customers used seating layouts less than 40-inches?

As mentioned earlier, UA and AC apparently did have the same pitch in F and Y class on their first DC-8s for a while, but not sure if anyone else has any info going that far back on the many other early DC-8 operators.

Between the first DC-8 delivery to UA on May 29, 1959 and the end of 1960, 111 DC-8s were delivered to 16 carriers (31 of the first 111 to UA). I'm pretty sure most of them wouldn't have had more than the typical 34 inch pitch in economy class but I have no specific details. Pan Am would have had similar seating on DC-8s as on 707s since they were using both types side by side within a little over a year after they put the first 707 into service, and PA didn't have 40 inch pitch in Y class on their 707s. I believe PA had 125 sets on their early 707-120s and probably included 6 or 7 rows of first class. To get 125 seats on the aircraft the Y seats would have had to be close to 34 iinch pitch.

I think AA's initial 707-120 configuration was an equal split of F and Y, 56 seats in each for a total of 112. With that many F seats you would also need close to 34 inch pitch to fit another 56 Y seats. Early 707s also had a small first class lounge at the front on the left side that took up the space of 6 first class seats. The lounges were later removed and replaced with seats.
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:40 am

The major launch customer (UAL) though did select a 40-inch pitch across the board though right?


P.S.
Oh... this is kind of unrelated... but why did Douglas not better blend in the double-bubble fuselage with some kind of fairing that would have produced a more clean oval shape?

Andrea K
 
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RE: DC-8/DC-10 Aircraft Window Size And Spacing

Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:09 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 48):
Oh... this is kind of unrelated... but why did Douglas not better blend in the double-bubble fuselage with some kind of fairing that would have produced a more clean oval shape?

Personally I've always considered the DC-8 one of the most attractive commercial aircraft, including those being built today. Not sure what benefits would have resulted from what you are suggesting. I doubt it would have any significant effect on drag or they probably would have done it.

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