CanadianNorth
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732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:02 am

Good morning all..

Just a quick question. Part of my job on our 737s is to take out the garbage from both galleys. To do get the bins out to change the bag, you have to open the back left door and the front right door. Also if it is hot sometimes we open the back right for some extra air. Both back doors are pretty easy to close after, just push the little button, give the little handle a pull to bring the door in and then turn the main handle to close up. On the front right door the procedure is identical, but instead of just giving it an easy pull like at the back, you really have to "give 'er" to pull the door in. Why is this?


Thanks
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FighterPilot
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:15 am

I'd wager a guess, because of so much use?

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Tristarsteve
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:11 am

The front left door is about the same.
Because the doors are in the curved part of the fuselage, the upper hinge is inboard of the lower hinge. This means that when opening and closing the front doors you are actually lifting the door before it goes overcentre and falls down again.
There have been accident reports that when the cabin crew tried to open these doors in emergency, with a slide engaged, they could not because they are so heavy. Yet Boeing still uses its grandfather rights to certify new B737 with doors that are definitely illegal by todays standards.
By the way, in my airline no-one is allowed to open any cabin door unless there is a platform under it, a jetty, or some steps, or a catering truck. This is to stop someone falling out when opening or closing the doors. On the B732 we stopped using the small wastes by the doors. On B757 and A320 there is an access to the waste so you don't have to open the pax door, and our cleaners don't.
 
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:45 am

The new B737NG design has equipped the L1 door with a "spring assist" which is to make things easier. This really isn't anything close to a emergency pneumatic power assist. I would point out even with this enhancement there have been evacuations on NG aircraft that similarly still had problems with the forward doors, such as a Ryanair evacuation.
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CanadianNorth
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:59 am

Thanks for the replies everyone!

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
Because the doors are in the curved part of the fuselage, the upper hinge is inboard of the lower hinge. This means that when opening and closing the front doors you are actually lifting the door before it goes overcentre and falls down again.

That makes sense now, thanks.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
By the way, in my airline no-one is allowed to open any cabin door unless there is a platform under it, a jetty, or some steps, or a catering truck. This is to stop someone falling out when opening or closing the doors.

Is this a common thing with airlines? We do doors all the time without anything there, mainly do to nothing to put there (stairs/bridge only are used at front left, we don't have catering trucks up here, and the platform thing we only use when loading/unloading or stuff on a full groom and that's only at the back left we use that. However, we are all shown how to do it properly, are all really careful, and usually the doors aren't open for much longer than what it takes to pull the bin out, take the full bag out, tie it, put a new bag in and slide the bin back in.

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
On the B732 we stopped using the small wastes by the doors.

Where is the garbage put then? On our 737s the only place for garbage are the one bin up front, one in the back, the recylcing in the back, and then an extra, slightly larger bin in the middle at the back next to the lav. So to not use the door ones would basically take away close to half of the total garbage space on board...


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HAWK21M
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 12:02 pm

The Shape of the Fuselage in the front makes the Angle of leverage needed by an Individual closing the door more,added also my lack of lubricant on the more frequently used door in front.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 3):
I would point out even with this enhancement there have been evacuations on NG aircraft that similarly still had problems with the forward doors, such as a Ryanair evacuation.

Could you elaborate.

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 4):
On our 737s the only place for garbage are the one bin up front, one in the back, the recylcing in the back, and then an extra, slightly larger bin in the middle at the back next to the lav. So to not use the door ones would basically take away close to half of the total garbage space on board

I remember the old B732s had this Bin on the Corner,blocked by the escape slide on the door needing the door to be drifted open slightly to give it access.


regds
MEL
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Markhkg
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 1:13 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 5):

Could you elaborate.

From the UKAIIB report:

"The No 2 and No 3 CCMs had difficulty opening their respective doors, R1 and R2."

"Although their instruction was supplemented with the advice that the fully rigged door would be more resistant to opening in the real event because of the integral slide deployment, during training they would have acquired no sense of the forces they would normally encounter trying to open an armed door."

http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_029538.pdf

After the incident, Ryanair actually acquired a new cabin emergency procedures trainer.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 4:16 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 3):
The new B737NG design has equipped the L1 door with a "spring assist" which is to make things easier. This really isn't anything close to a emergency pneumatic power assist. I would point out even with this enhancement there have been evacuations on NG aircraft that similarly still had problems with the forward doors, such as a Ryanair evacuation.

I'm working on 737NG every day and have never seen this (with several airlines). The main and service doors are the same as on the Classic and Jurassic (and the 707). Maybe the spring assist you are talking about are the redesigned, outward opening overwing exits. They contain huge springs to open them. I havec seen a tiny F/A getting pulled out of the plane by the door when she opened it during training (she didn't let go of the handle).

Jan
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:15 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
Maybe the spring assist you are talking about are the redesigned, outward opening overwing exits.

No, I am referring to the floor level exit. In the Boeing 737-823 Flight Attendant manual, it states, "The forward left entry door is spring-assisted for easier opening."

On another note, I have actually used a NG overwing exit in training...as you point out, it's very important to let go as soon as you pull down the red handle.

[Edited 2007-07-23 10:15:43]
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:33 pm

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 8):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
Maybe the spring assist you are talking about are the redesigned, outward opening overwing exits.

No, I am referring to the floor level exit. In the Boeing 737-823 Flight Attendant manual, it states, "The forward left entry door is spring-assisted for easier opening."

Then this is a modification I haven't seen on any of the NGs I worked on (from three different airlines). All of them just had to old style door snubber only at the lower hinge, same as on the 707.

Jan
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thegreatchecko
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 5:37 pm

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 4):
Is this a common thing with airlines? We do doors all the time without anything there, mainly do to nothing to put there (stairs/bridge only are used at front left, we don't have catering trucks up here, and the platform thing we only use when loading/unloading or stuff on a full groom and that's only at the back left we use that.

I'd just chalk it up to the fact that things just have to be done differently up in these parts sometimes.

This has nothing to do with less regard for safety, its just that the resources just aren't there to keep people from making mistakes. The further north you go, the more people have to look out for themselves and rely less upon others for their safety and well being.

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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
Maybe the spring assist you are talking about are the redesigned, outward opening overwing exits.



Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 8):
No, I am referring to the floor level exit. In the Boeing 737-823 Flight Attendant manual, it states, "The forward left entry door is spring-assisted for easier opening."

Is this a customerised option.
regds
MEL
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 11):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
Maybe the spring assist you are talking about are the redesigned, outward opening overwing exits.



Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 8):
No, I am referring to the floor level exit. In the Boeing 737-823 Flight Attendant manual, it states, "The forward left entry door is spring-assisted for easier opening."

Is this a customerised option.
regds
MEL

The outward opening overwing exits are standard on the 737NG. The reason is that when the plane was introduced, the FAA refused to grandfather the old plug type exit doors, since they were considered to be too heavy for e.g. elderly people to use. As a result Boeing had to redesign the overwing exits, making the doors hinged at the upper edge. They contain a huge spring and a snubber and open automatically when the release handle is being pulled. In the air, with cabin pressurised and with engines running they are locked by a special flight lock to prevent them from opening accidentally in flight.

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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:08 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
The outward opening overwing exits are standard on the 737NG. The reason is that when the plane was introduced, the FAA refused to grandfather the old plug type exit doors, since they were considered to be too heavy for e.g. elderly people to use. As a result Boeing had to redesign the overwing exits, making the doors hinged at the upper edge. They contain a huge spring and a snubber and open automatically when the release handle is being pulled. In the air, with cabin pressurised and with engines running they are locked by a special flight lock to prevent them from opening accidentally in flight.

I thought it was the JAA (as was) who refused to grandfather regular overwing exists, following the Manchester Airport fire?
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 13):
I thought it was the JAA (as was) who refused to grandfather regular overwing exists, following the Manchester Airport fire?

You might be right, but I think both of the authorities were not happy with the old exits anymore.

Jan
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Markhkg
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
You might be right, but I think both of the authorities were not happy with the old exits anymore.

The NTSB in 2000 recommended that the FAA require any passenger plane wishing to achieve new certification to use the new exit design if the plane was to be equipped with type III exits. The FAA has yet to act on the recommendation (NTSB classification "Open--Unacceptable Response"), which explains why the new Embraer E-Jets, among others, still are being certified with the old hatch design.

From the NTSB:
Safety Recommendation A-00-76 was issued because the Safety Board's safety study on emergency evacuation of commercial airplanes found that the Type III hatch is frequently much heavier and more difficult to remove than passengers expect. The Board also found that the way in which this hatch must be opened and stowed is not clear to passengers nor can it be easily depicted graphically. The Board noted that Boeing had designed a new overwing exit for its 737 series airplanes that was based on human factors principles. This new Type III exit design is hinged and opens outward, as passengers would expect. Because it moves up and out of the egress route, Boeing's design also eliminates the problem of where to stow the exit hatch. The FAA referred this issue to its Aviation Rulemaking Advisory Committee (ARAC), which was unable to reach a consensus on its recommendations. The FAA then entered discussions with aviation authorities in other countries, but was again unable to reach a consensus. These discussions have ceased for now, pending completion of a benefit study sponsored by Transport Canada and the United Kingdom Civil Aviation Authority. The FAA indicates that it agrees that action in Safety Recommendation A-00-76 would provide improvements in emergency evacuation performance, and that, based on further discussions with other aviation authorities and the results of the benefit study, the FAA may implement rulemaking to mandate the recommended change to Type III exits. The Safety Board has previously informed the FAA that it does not believe it was necessary to refer this to the ARAC, or wait for the completion of any research. Despite previous correspondence from the Safety Board urging the FAA to take action, in the 5 1/2 years since this recommendation was issued, the FAA has not acted to mandate a Type III exit on newly manufactured aircraft that is easy and intuitive to open and that includes automatic hatch stowage out of the egress path. The Board continues to believe that the FAA should take the recommended action without further delay. Pending timely action to mandate an improved Type III exit, Safety Recommendation A-00-76 remains classified "Open-Unacceptable Response."
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Tue Jul 24, 2007 5:28 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
The outward opening overwing exits are standard on the 737NG.

I was referring to the Assist on the Fwd Entry door as I've never noticed an NG out here with it.So was it a customer option.
regds
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Markhkg
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Wed Jul 25, 2007 4:54 am

MEL, I don't actually know the answer to that. I would be curious to what the answer is though!
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:09 am

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 17):

MEL, I don't actually know the answer to that. I would be curious to what the answer is though!

Anyone aware of an NG with power assist on the Entry doors?.
regds
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:10 am

Resurrecting ancient threads again, Mel?

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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:25 am

Quoting CanadianNorth (Thread starter):
To do get the bins out to change the bag, you have to open the back left door and the front right door
Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 4):
Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
On the B732 we stopped using the small wastes by the doors.

Where is the garbage put then?

We've also had those waste bins sealed up, and the adjacent cart contains a bin.

Quoting CanadianNorth (Reply 4):
Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
By the way, in my airline no-one is allowed to open any cabin door unless there is a platform under it, a jetty, or some steps, or a catering truck. This is to stop someone falling out when opening or closing the doors.

Is this a common thing with airlines?

It is in the UK, where "Health and Safety" legislation over-rides just about everything. People aren't allowed to use initiative or common sense any more. We even had written instructions about going up and down the external stairs on the airbridge (don't carry baggage, hold the handrails, go one step at a time etc), and about turning round to look at the security camera monitor which is located behind the F/O's head (retract seat back and to the side, loosen seat belt, rotate 90 degrees in the seat, then look at the screen). Give me a break!

Regards - musang
 
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:58 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 19):

Resurrecting ancient threads again, Mel?

Was posting a thread & noticed this was left unanswered.....So high time it was  

regds
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:09 pm

Quote:
Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 8):
No, I am referring to the floor level exit. In the Boeing 737-823 Flight Attendant manual, it states, "The forward left entry door is spring-assisted for easier opening."

Is this a customerised option.
regds
MEL

Nope, the L1 door on all NG's have a door assist spring. There are coil springs that surround the frame mounted torque tube, which provides assistance in the first part of opening or closing of the door. The assistance given is relatively minor compared with a proper power assist system.
 
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Wed Apr 06, 2011 3:18 am

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
On B757 and A320 there is an access to the waste so you don't have to open the pax door, and our cleaners don't.

Really where do they pick it up. I have never seen this. On every 757 flight Ive been on there is a cart like for food but only for waste and it is taken off the aircraft from L1 or the back left.
 
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:23 am

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 3):
The new B737NG design has equipped the L1 door with a "spring assist" which is to make things easier.

This is not new to the NG- the 737-200s I work on have it as well.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 7):
Maybe the spring assist you are talking about are the redesigned, outward opening overwing exits.

Nope, not at all.

Quoting MarkHKG (Reply 8):
On another note, I have actually used a NG overwing exit in training...as you point out, it's very important to let go as soon as you pull down the red handle.

From a mechanic's perspective, PLEASE DON'T!!!! If that door gets away, and the snubbers are weak, there can be serious airframe damage! In a crash evacuation, who cares, but for routine training, I cringe when I see our F/A's do that!

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
Then this is a modification I haven't seen on any of the NGs I worked on (from three different airlines). All of them just had to old style door snubber only at the lower hinge, same as on the 707.

It isn't visible. There is a shaft linking the upper hinge with the lower hinge, interior to the fuselage structure. Around this rotating shaft is a coiled spring. And it's been in use since at least 1985.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 11):
Is this a customerised option.

Nope, standard.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
FAA refused to grandfather the old plug type exit doors, since they were considered to be too heavy for e.g. elderly people to use.

That was the Europeans, actually. Nevermind that they had just recently certified certain Airbus narrowbody variants with old-school, fall in your lap window exits.
And have done so since then, too... For example, the twin-overwing exit A319, which was certificated for EasyJet with 1950's vintage unsprung plugs.
 
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Crosswind
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:28 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 24):
That was the Europeans, actually. Nevermind that they had just recently certified certain Airbus narrowbody variants with old-school, fall in your lap window exits.
And have done so since then, too... For example, the twin-overwing exit A319, which was certificated for EasyJet with 1950's vintage unsprung plugs.

The JAA certified the A320s because they met the regulations, as they are to do with the size of the exit - not the method of opening it. The overwing exits on the A320 are larger, the ones on the 737 didn't meet the rules on the minimum exit size.

Quote from Flight Global

Boeing's new Type III exit incorporates a new, automatic, fast-opening hatch which can be operated by any passenger and is ready for evacuation within 3s of actuation, compared with the 13s allowed under the new regulations, says JAA regulation director Yves Morier. The JAA argument is basically that the 10s saved makes the exit equivalent in safety to that of the larger exit apertures required on newer designs such as the A320.

Full article: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...sal-for-new-737-satisfies-jaa.html

Regards
CROSSWIND
 
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:07 pm

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 24):
From a mechanic's perspective, PLEASE DON'T!!!! If that door gets away, and the snubbers are weak, there can be serious airframe damage! In a crash evacuation, who cares, but for routine training, I cringe when I see our F/A's do that!

I´ve seen a small trainee hostie being pulled right out of the door because she didn´t let go. She was literally hanging off the handle.

Jan
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MD11Engineer
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Fri Apr 08, 2011 10:15 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 24):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
Then this is a modification I haven't seen on any of the NGs I worked on (from three different airlines). All of them just had to old style door snubber only at the lower hinge, same as on the 707.

It isn't visible. There is a shaft linking the upper hinge with the lower hinge, interior to the fuselage structure. Around this rotating shaft is a coiled spring. And it's been in use since at least 1985.

You are right. I never had the access panel opened on a NG, only on classics and checked it today in the manuals. There is a big spring inside.

Jan
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Fri Apr 08, 2011 11:01 am

Quoting Crosswind (Reply 25):
Boeing's new Type III exit incorporates a new, automatic, fast-opening hatch which can be operated by any passenger and is ready for evacuation within 3s of actuation, compared with the 13s allowed under the new regulations, says JAA regulation director Yves Morier. The JAA argument is basically that the 10s saved makes the exit equivalent in safety to that of the larger exit apertures required on newer designs such as the A320.

Ah HA! I've learned something today! Bout time, I almost had to go to bed with no new information!

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 26):
She was literally hanging off the handle.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not the biggest guy myself, and I typically have to have help in closing it. CLOSING it is a REAL BOOGER.
But yes, I can appreciate the notion of some dainty new girl being flung across the hangar by the door!

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 27):
You are right.

Hooray! See? SOMETIMES, I know what I'm talking about... even at 3am local time.
 
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RE: 732: Why Is The Front Right Door So Hard?

Sat Apr 09, 2011 3:35 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 2):
On B757 and A320 there is an access to the waste so you don't have to open the pax door, and our cleaners don't.

Any Pics?.
regds
MEL.
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