nwray
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Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:02 am

Just wondering if many pilots out there are qualified ( is the term type-rated?) to fly both Airbus and Boeing jets. Thanks.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Thu Jul 26, 2007 7:08 am

They can be type-rated in as many aircraft as they want or can, but they can be current in only one air transport catergory aircraft.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:00 pm

Same out here.Only One type can be flown irrespective of number of ratings.In fact its so strict that A pilot flying a similiar family of type eg A320 cannot fly an A319 or A321 on the same day.Although thats being argued.
regds
MEL
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SFOMB67
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:29 pm

We had management test crews that were able to fly several different types. Not sure if they were limited to a certain number of acft, or not. This was for maint test flights, ferry flts, etc. No passenger or revenue flights.
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
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zeke
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Thu Jul 26, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 1):
They can be type-rated in as many aircraft as they want or can, but they can be current in only one air transport catergory aircraft.

That is incorrect, many airbus pilots mix fleet fly between A320 series, A330, and A340. I fly both A330/340 sometimes in the same week, and have previously been rated on the 744. Other airlines have their A320 pilots flying A330 or A340s.
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fr8mech
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:13 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
That is incorrect,

True, I forgot about common cockpits such as those mentioned and the B757/B767.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Arniepie
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:38 pm

Just making a wild guess here but can company policy also forbid this transitioning in between models ?
I seem to remember that at Southwest some of the older pilots flew 200 series, the classics (300) and the NG 737 models all at the same time.
[edit post]
 
PGNCS
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
Only One type can be flown irrespective of number of ratings.In fact its so strict that A pilot flying a similiar family of type eg A320 cannot fly an A319 or A321 on the same day.Although thats being argued.

That's not true in general, certainly not in the US. UA and NW Pilots, for instance, fly A-320 and A-319 aircraft in a single day. I've flown both and the differences are negligible from a pilot's point of view. Lots of pilots fly the 757 and 767 in a day, and the differences between those aircraft are manageable, though greater than for the Airbuses.

Quoting Nwray (Thread starter):
Just wondering if many pilots out there are qualified ( is the term type-rated?) to fly both Airbus and Boeing jets.

For line flying you are generally confined to a single category, which could include both the 757 and 767, but not the 737NG. The 737NG guys can fly the -700 and -800 (etc.) interchangeably. I have type ratings in seven aircraft including the A-320 (which also covers me for the A-318, -319, and -321), the B-757, B-767, and B-747-4[00]. I could be in a category that let me fly all those narrowbody Airbuses, OR the 757/767, OR the 744, but not at the same time. If I wanted to change back to another fleet I would have to go through requal or initial school depending on how long I had been off the airplane (this varies according to country, company, and what's in the company approved training program, normally under AQP in the US.)

Hope this helps.
 
calpilot
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):
but not the 737NG. The 737NG guys can fly the -700 and -800 (etc.) interchangeably.

Not sure I follow? At my company I have a B737 Type, I fly same day, week, month; the -500, -300, -700, -800, -900.

The -500,300 are different from NG's in many ways, but it works.

The big difference, is going from a B757-200 to the B767-400; weight, size, control feel, cockpit displays, etc.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):
That's not true in general, certainly not in the US

You left out the 1st three words of my qoute  Smile read it again.
regds
MEL
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nwray
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 1:28 am

Thanks for all the great replies. Is requalifying for another type a long and difficult process, or fairly quick? Do your companies tend to want to keep you on the same type to avoid requalification?
 
speedracer1407
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 8):
Not sure I follow? At my company I have a B737 Type, I fly same day, week, month; the -500, -300, -700, -800, -900.

The -500,300 are different from NG's in many ways, but it works.

I thought that was because CO's 737NGs are set up to display instruments that look similar to analogue "steam" gauges of the classics.
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tdscanuck
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting Speedracer1407 (Reply 11):
I thought that was because CO's 737NGs are set up to display instruments that look similar to analogue "steam" gauges of the classics.

That was a requirement imposed on the 737NG by Southwest. There's a switch to flip the symbol generators between the normal glass cockpit layout and a simulation of the "steam gauge" layout used on the 737CL. You need to use the latter if you want the flight crews working both 737CL and 737NG interchangeably.

Tom.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:22 am

Quoting Zeke (Reply 4):
Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 1):
They can be type-rated in as many aircraft as they want or can, but they can be current in only one air transport catergory aircraft.

That is incorrect, many airbus pilots mix fleet fly between A320 series, A330, and A340. I fly both A330/340 sometimes in the same week, and have previously been rated on the 744. Other airlines have their A320 pilots flying A330 or A340s.

Quite a few LX Airbus pilots fly all narrowbody and widebody models in their fleet interchangeably (A319/320/321/330/340). They require a certain amount of experience before they can qualify to do this.
 
dmanmtl
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 8:39 am

I am wondering, in the case of Air Canada, for example, the new 777s are flown by who? Former Airbus pilots? Former 767 guys...any ideas?

D in Mtl
 
n710ps
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:08 am

At PSA it is not un common to fly the 50 seater (CR2) and than hop over to a 70 (CR7) during the course of a day and go back and fourth during a trip. Some trips are all one varient and others have more mix than trail mix. At mainline I know that the 320 guys fly the 319, 320 and 321 but they do not fly the 330 and as far as 757 and 767 common type goes they do not mix and mingle as far as I have experinced or known over on that side either.
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PGNCS
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 8):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):
but not the 737NG. The 737NG guys can fly the -700 and -800 (etc.) interchangeably.

Not sure I follow? At my company I have a B737 Type, I fly same day, week, month; the -500, -300, -700, -800, -900.

Absolutely correct. Sorry that I wasn't clear, I was trying to use a simple example. My airline only has NG's, so I wasn't thinking about all possible permutations. Note, though, that at some carriers there are different 737 categories due to extensive differences training. Delta formerly had four separate 737 categories.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):
That's not true in general, certainly not in the US

You left out the 1st three words of my qoute read it again.
regds

I did, but can't see what you're getting at. "Same out here." are the first three words, but I can't see what you are agreeing with. Are you saying that that the A-320 and A-319 are the same type? (They are in the US for type rating purposes.)

Quoting Dmanmtl (Reply 14):
I am wondering, in the case of Air Canada, for example, the new 777s are flown by who? Former Airbus pilots? Former 767 guys...any ideas?

The real question is who is senior enough to hold them, and who wants to bid it.

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 8):
The big difference, is going from a B757-200 to the B767-400; weight, size, control feel, cockpit displays, etc.

 checkmark  The 757 and 767 are completely different animals in control feel.
 
calpilot
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 12:59 pm

Quoting Speedracer1407 (Reply 11):
I thought that was because CO's 737NGs are set up to display instruments that look similar to analogue "steam" gauges of the classics.

correct

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
That was a requirement imposed on the 737NG by Southwest. There's a switch to flip the symbol generators between the normal glass cockpit layout and a simulation of the "steam gauge

Just so we are clear for the people asking, there is NO switch in the cockpit to switch this config.

Quoting Dmanmtl (Reply 14):
am wondering, in the case of Air Canada, for example, the new 777s are flown by who? Former Airbus pilots? Former 767 guys...any ideas?

Any ideas, "yeah"

Whoever bid it, it has nothing to do with what you flew before, it's all about your seniority.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 4:11 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 16):
did, but can't see what you're getting at. "Same out here." are the first three words, but I can't see what you are agreeing with. Are you saying that that the A-320 and A-319 are the same type? (They are in the US for type rating purposes.)

Same out here as in Same out here in INDIA.
Currently IT is arguing this rule with the Authorities as in case their A321 is AOG for some reason the crew cannot operate a standby A320/319 under the present rules.
regds
MEL
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tdscanuck
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 17):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 12):
That was a requirement imposed on the 737NG by Southwest. There's a switch to flip the symbol generators between the normal glass cockpit layout and a simulation of the "steam gauge

Just so we are clear for the people asking, there is NO switch in the cockpit to switch this config.

Correct. I believe it's a pin configuration in the E/E bay. Not something the pilots can change but it doesn't require any new hardware or software on the aircraft.

Tom.
 
SEPilot
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:05 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 6):
I seem to remember that at Southwest some of the older pilots flew 200 series, the classics (300) and the NG 737 models all at the same time.

I believe that as far as the FAA is concerned a 737 type rating is a 737 type rating, period. That means legally you could train on a 737-200 and jump into a 737-900ER with no further training; however I doubt that any airline would allow that. I suspect that the airlines have their own policies, and they are stricter than the FAA's.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 9:38 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 20):
That means legally you could train on a 737-200 and jump into a 737-900ER with no further training

Not out here.
regds
MEL
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longhauler
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:03 pm

Quoting Dmanmtl (Reply 14):
I am wondering, in the case of Air Canada, for example, the new 777s are flown by who? Former Airbus pilots? Former 767 guys...any ideas?

When the B777s appeared on the equipment bid last year, they were open to anyone that had the seniority to hold it.

B777 CAs came from the A340/330, B767 and even A320. B777 FOs were the same with the addition of one EMJ CA. B777 RPs with a few exceptions are all new-hires.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 20):
That means legally you could train on a 737-200 and jump into a 737-900ER with no further training; however I doubt that any airline would allow that.

In Canada the type ratings are split into two groups ... B73A for the -100 and -200, and B73B for the -300 and higher.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
SEPilot
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Fri Jul 27, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Not out here.

But you're not ruled by the FAA. Lucky you.

Quoting LongHauler (Reply 22):

In Canada the type ratings are split into two groups ... B73A for the -100 and -200, and B73B for the -300 and higher.

Again, perhaps Canadian authorities have more sense than the FAA; it wouldn't be hard. In GA in the US, it's not the FAA that dictates what you can fly, it's usually the insurance companies. I suspect the same may exist in the airlines, although the airlines themselves may institute rules without being pushed by insurance companies. It's really bad for business to kill passengers, so they try pretty hard to avoid it.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
SlamClick
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Sat Jul 28, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 20):
legally you could train on a 737-200 and jump into a 737-900ER with no further training

Not at all the case. Read FAR 121.418 regarding "differences" training.

Differences training will cover whatever is different between the planes you cite, the only thing that will not be needed is any new airman certificate. (license or rating)

At one end, I've seen a Part 121 non-sked with two airplanes that were as identical as could be. One had painted cowling and the other had polished metal but the FAA did not care about that. The "differences" program in this case came down to this: The transponder on one was wired through ground shift and the other had to be turned on and off entering and leaving the runway. So the "training program" was a memo from the chief pilot explaining this difference and admonishing the pilots to be diligent about turning the one on and off. Each pilot had to initial that he'd read the memo and everyone was happy.

At the other end I've seen a full eight hours of differences between 727-100 and 727-200 with -7, -15 or -17 engines and any number of other variations. This company's fleet had come from all over the world and we used to joke that they'd have had a shorter program if they'd taught "similarities" instead of differences.

Be assured that when (for one example) Alaska's 737-200 combis were finally parked, those pilots got a comprehensive course of instruction on the -400 or the NG aircraft, depending on where they were headed. On the other hand they didn't have to get a new license.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:38 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 23):
But you're not ruled by the FAA. Lucky you

Isn't FAA easier than DGCA  Smile
regds
MEL
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BA777ER236
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:45 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
Same out here.Only One type can be flown irrespective of number of ratings.In fact its so strict that A pilot flying a similiar family of type eg A320 cannot fly an A319 or A321 on the same day.Although thats being argued.

I'm amazed by this HAWK21M! The Airbus FBW a/c were designed very much with this in mind, also with the 737, both in 'classic' and NG form, and of course, the B757/767. Considerable amounts of money/design & effort were spent by A & B, CAA, JAA and FAA to prove & certificate these a/c for just such an operation. I personally have flown B757 and 767 on the same day, and the A319 & A320 in a similar way without any problems. Although I have now left the Airbus fleet, colleagues still there, can now fly 319/320/321 on the same day. I would have to say that flying the 319/320 (IAE) on the same day is probably less different than flying the GE powered 777 compared to the RR powered 200ER!

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 7):
That's not true in general, certainly not in the US. UA and NW Pilots, for instance, fly A-320 and A-319 aircraft in a single day. I've flown both and the differences are negligible from a pilot's point of view. Lots of pilots fly the 757 and 767 in a day, and the differences between those aircraft are manageable, though greater than for the Airbuses.

Completely agree, and it's the same across JAA states as well.

If the authorities in India are restricting operators like this, it must be highly inefficient from a pilot establishment perspective. I don't think that there has been a single incident in BA where mixed fleet operations, as above, has been a factor. Obviously, the Indian authorities know better than all of the other operators/authorities, or maybe the Indian operators have a surplus of pilots, and don't need to worry about it! (But that's not what I've heard)

Cheers
 Smile
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HAWK21M
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RE: Pilots Qualified To Fly Both A And B Models

Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting BA777ER236 (Reply 26):
If the authorities in India are restricting operators like this, it must be highly inefficient from a pilot establishment perspective.

Thats exactly the Arguement of IT management & they hope the Worldwide senario will convince the Local Authorities.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)

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