A346Dude
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Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Sun Aug 05, 2007 12:43 pm

I was reading about the Turbine 206 which got me wondering if there are any smaller airplanes with turbine engines.

Has anyone ever modified one of the smaller Cessna singles? If not, are piston engines inherently more efficient below a certain size, and if so, why is that?
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
 
2H4
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting A346Dude (Thread starter):
Has anyone ever modified one of the smaller Cessna singles?

The closest thing I've ever seen is a turbine Luscombe:





Quoting A346Dude (Thread starter):
If not, are piston engines inherently more efficient below a certain size, and if so, why is that?

The operating efficiency of, say, an O-200 or O-235 is probably superior to even the smaller turbine engines, but I think the real obstacle for turbine engines is the overhaul/replacement costs.


2H4

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cancidas
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:14 am

"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
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TripleDelta
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2):
The operating efficiency of, say, an O-200 or O-235 is probably superior to even the smaller turbine engines, but I think the real obstacle for turbine engines is the overhaul/replacement costs.

Wouldn't a turbine be a power-overkill on a light single? As far as I know, and have been looking at this field with some interest, the lowest-powered feasible turbine is in the 300 HP range. That would be way to much for a Cessna 150 or 172, despite the higher empty weight and additional fuel tankage needed...
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2H4
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:32 am

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 4):
Wouldn't a turbine be a power-overkill on a light single? As far as I know, and have been looking at this field with some interest, the lowest-powered feasible turbine is in the 300 HP range.

The turbine Luscombe uses a 150 hp APEX T62-32...

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 4):
That would be way to much for a Cessna 150 or 172

Nonsense! As the saying goes, the only time an airplane is overpowered is when you can accelerate while pointed straight up at idle.  biggrin 


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Mir
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):
As the saying goes, the only time an airplane is overpowered is when you can accelerate while pointed straight up at idle.

I still wouldn't consider that overpowered.  biggrin 

-Mir
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2H4
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:03 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
I still wouldn't consider that overpowered.

Ok, perhaps we should amend the definition of "overpowered", at least for single-engine aircraft:

An aircraft is overpowered when, upon advancing the throttle 1mm, the resulting torque overcomes all aileron authority and continuously snap-rolls the aircraft until the throttle is returned to idle.


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tdscanuck
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting A346Dude (Thread starter):
I was reading about the Turbine 206 which got me wondering if there are any smaller airplanes with turbine engines.

Has anyone ever modified one of the smaller Cessna singles? If not, are piston engines inherently more efficient below a certain size, and if so, why is that?

I know there are Seawind 3000's running around with turboprops.

Efficiency for both Otto (piston) and Brayton (turbine) cycles scales with the compression ratio/pressure ratio. Getting good compression isn't too hard on a piston, you just have to watch out for knock. Getting good compression on a small turbine is hard because it scales with blade speed and, with small turbines, you need enourmous RPM for that. A piston is also much cheaper to purchase, operate, and overhaul for small sizes.

At the extreme other end of the scale, turbines and extremely large two-cycle diesels are about on par for efficiency.

Tom.
 
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TripleDelta
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):
The turbine Luscombe uses a 150 hp APEX T62-32...

Interesting, didn't know that turbines of that power existed... well then, one of these would certainly be welcome in the Skyhawk... especially during summer, taking off from a 1800 ft-elevation strip in +30 C with full fuel and two pax and forest-fire smoke drifting around Big grin. We had to climb at a whopping 200 fpm to avoid overheating the engine...

Is the APEXs fuel consumption significantly higher than that of a standard piston engine in that power range?
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:43 am

Supposedly a turbine C152 landed at PRC once, but I never saw it. Word of mouth form the flightline.
 
A346Dude
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:23 pm

Quoting Cancidas (Reply 3):
there is the turbine toucan:

http://www.airshowbuzz.com/videos/vi...c9175

Now THAT is a cool airplane. Apparently the power to weight ratio is greater than 1.0 so it can hover like a helicopter!

Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 1):
http://www.tradewind-bonanza.com/bonanza/main.html

Another ridiculously powerful aircraft. Interesting quote that a turbine is around 100 times more reliable than a piston engine.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
n710ps
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 2:47 pm

I have been up close with a turbine Bonanza that was being flown as an Air Ambulance. Quite an intresting airplane. This was about two years ago.
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cobra27
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 7:16 pm

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 11):
Now THAT is a cool airplane. Apparently the power to weight ratio is greater than 1.0 so it can hover like a helicopter!

Actually hellicopter have power to weight ratio way lower than 1 (around 0.25). Only fighter or rockets have power to wieght more than 1
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 10):
Supposedly a turbine C152 landed at PRC once

What powerplant.
regds
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2H4
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting TripleDelta (Reply 9):
Is the APEXs fuel consumption significantly higher than that of a standard piston engine in that power range?

I've heard 16 gph for the Luscombe.

There's video of a turbine Super Cub here.


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airfoilsguy
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:52 am

Quoting A346Dude (Thread starter):
got me wondering if there are any smaller airplanes with turbine engines.

http://www.skymasterjet.com/image3/fl03.jpg
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timz
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:40 am

Offhand I think it was the 1960s that somebody put a ... 40 hp? Rover? turbine in a Currie Wot. 60000 RPM sticks in my mind.
 
atct
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Tue Aug 07, 2007 10:40 am

Comp Air Turbines I believe make a kit thats 4 seats. A great aircraft.



ATCT
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Dougloid
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:40 pm

I used to work on a Garrett powered Pilatus Turbo Porter for Clay Lacey back in the day....it could damn near take off vertically.
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TripleDelta
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:49 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 15):
I've heard 16 gph for the Luscombe.

That's not at all much, given the boost in performance (especially T-O, climb and hot-and-high) and reliability.
No plane, no gain.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:47 am

A long-lived Canadian type that's had both turbine conversions:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jason Pineau
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Lenn Bayliss



And was also factory-built as the Turbo-Beaver:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Olafson



By the way, the DHC-2 Beaver made it's first flight 60 years ago next Thursday (August 16, 1947).
 
T prop
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:49 am



Powerplant

Pratt & Whitney: PT6A-25C
Horsepower: 750

Empty weight: 1600 lbs


Brake release to 3000 meters in 1 minute 9 seconds  Wow!


http://www.waynehandley.com/archive.html
 
mark5388916
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:15 pm

Quoting T prop (Reply 22):
Brake release to 3000 meters in 1 minute 9 seconds

OMG wow thats some serious stuff, look at the other spec though:

Fuel Capacity 150 gallons / Jet-A
G Limits 12 positive / 12 negative
Take-off Distance 200 feet @ performance weight
Landing Distance 800 feet (using reverse thrust)
Max Climb 10,000 fpm @ 120 KIAS
Cruise Climb 4,500 fpm @ 215 KIAS
Service Ceiling 30,000+ feet
Fuel Consumption 45 gph @ cruise power
Range 800 nm (VFR reserves)
Endurance 3 hours (VFR reserves)
Vne (never exceed) 300 KIAS
Vs1 (stall) 65 KIAS
Vref (approach) 80 KIAS
Top Speed @ 3,000 feet 260 KIAS (300 mph)
75% Power @ 3,000 feet 230 KIAS
Sustainable Vertical Speed 60 KIAS, 5,000 fpm, straight up!


Now that seems rather impressive for a plane that size!

Mark
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T prop
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:14 pm

Quoting Mark5388916 (Reply 23):
OMG wow thats some serious stuff, look at the other spec though:

I never got to see it fly before it crashed but a friend of mine did. He said that Handley in that machine gave one of the most amazing performances he has ever seen.
 
2H4
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting T prop (Reply 24):
He said that Handley in that machine gave one of the most amazing performances he has ever seen.

I'd agree with that. Handley would point the airplane straight up, hang it on the prop, and perform his "elevator routine". By applying or reducing power, he would hover, climb, descend, hover some more, and then recover. It was indeed pretty amazing.


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sv2008
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:06 am

Quote:


Offhand I think it was the 1960s that somebody put a ... 40 hp? Rover? turbine in a Currie Wot. 60000 RPM sticks in my mind.

I think it just used to much fuel. They could probably reduce the fuel consumption now to acceptable levels, but it'd still not be near as that of a modern piston engine.

What really stops turbines being used in cars is probably emissions regulations.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:58 pm

I saw a C182 with a turbine at ABE once or twice last year. He went apesh*t on a poor refueler who drove the 100LL truck over to him. Can't say I blame him though.
 
A346Dude
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 27):
He went apesh*t on a poor refueler who drove the 100LL truck over to him. Can't say I blame him though.

I'd say it's his responsibility to supervise refueling every time with an airplane like that.

I'm sure it'd be worth the hassle though!
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 28):

I'd say it's his responsibility to supervise refueling every time with an airplane like that.

No doubt about that.
 
2H4
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:20 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 27):
I saw a C182 with a turbine

Are you sure it was a 182? Turbine 210s I've seen, but never a turbine 182....


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Tornado82
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):

Are you sure it was a 182? Turbine 210s I've seen, but never a turbine 182....

I talked to the guy about it for a few minutes the 2nd time I saw it, so yes I'm as sure as can be.
 
2H4
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:54 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 31):
I talked to the guy about it for a few minutes the 2nd time I saw it, so yes I'm as sure as can be.

Wow, I'd love to see a photo. I've scoured the internet (as well as our database), and I can't find a single example.


2H4

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Viscount724
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:57 am

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 31):
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):

Are you sure it was a 182? Turbine 210s I've seen, but never a turbine 182....

I talked to the guy about it for a few minutes the 2nd time I saw it, so yes I'm as sure as can be.



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 32):
Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 31):
I talked to the guy about it for a few minutes the 2nd time I saw it, so yes I'm as sure as can be.

Wow, I'd love to see a photo. I've scoured the internet (as well as our database), and I can't find a single example.

Here it is!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4-IQSLqic4
 
atct
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:46 am

That video is of a Piston powered Cessna 182. Just listen to the beginning. (Shakes head)...

Note the Manifold Pressure gauge...I havent seen one of those on a turbine before.

ATCT
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:18 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 5):
Nonsense! As the saying goes, the only time an airplane is overpowered is when you can accelerate while pointed straight up at idle.

Unless for example it's a turbine GlassAir.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001213X28231&key=1

Quote:
WITNESSES REPORTED THAT THE TURBOPROP HOMEBUILT LIFTED OFF THE RUNWAY AT A SLOW AIRSPEED AND HIGH PITCH ANGLE. AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT THEN ROLLED TO LEFT AND SETTLED INTO TREES. DUE TO THE SUBTANTIAL P-FACTOR AND TORQUE OF THE TURBOPROP ENGINE, TAKEOFF THRUST IS NORMALLY NOT APPLIED UNTIL SUFFICIENT AIRSPEED FOR RUDDER EFFECTIVENESS IS ATTAINED.



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 7):
An aircraft is overpowered when, upon advancing the throttle 1mm, the resulting torque overcomes all aileron authority and continuously snap-rolls the aircraft until the throttle is returned to idle.

Exactly!

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 30):
Are you sure it was a 182? Turbine 210s I've seen, but never a turbine 182....

I wouldn't swear to it, but I seem to remember one being at Sun n Fun around 89-90. IIRC, it used a turbine based on the core of the tomahawk missile engine.
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kbfispotter
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RE: Small Turbine Aircraft (ie C152/C172)

Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:19 pm

Quoting A346Dude (Thread starter):
Has anyone ever modified one of the smaller Cessna singles?

I have always wanted to take a straight tail 150 with a texas taildragger STC and mount a PT-6 or Walter 601 in the nose...
It would be a plane for the express purpose of having fun in, and nothing else...

According to 2H4's definition, this plane would absolutely be overpowered, and a fun ass ride!

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