JETBLUEATASW
Topic Author
Posts: 55
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 3:19 pm

PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:29 am

I just wanted to know what is the official SOP for most airline carriers as far as what the Pilot Flying duties are as well as what the Pilot NOT flying duties are? I mean, i can pretty much guess what the Pilot flying rules are, since i flew before(NOT an airliner, to be clear here LOL). What does the Pilot NOT flying do? Also, does it differ when the PF is the CAPTAIN, and PNF is the First officer, does it change when the PF becomes the First officer and the PNF becomes the captain? Its pretty interesting to see a captain NOT flyin altho he is in the left seat......
"DO ME A FAVOR WOULD YA, THE NEXT TIME U LAND A PLANE ON MY STRIP, BONE UP ON YOUR MORSE CODE"-Tom Berenger
 
futureualpilot
Posts: 2404
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 10:52 am

RE: PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:04 pm

Quoting JETBLUEATASW (Thread starter):
What does the Pilot NOT flying do? Also, does it differ when the PF is the CAPTAIN, and PNF is the First officer, does it change when the PF becomes the First officer and the PNF becomes the captain? Its pretty interesting to see a captain NOT flyin altho he is in the left seat......

I'm guessing the PNF does most if not all of the comms, will read checklists when they are called for, helps monitor the gauges, etc. The Captain still has final authority concerning the flight, be he/she PF or PNF. To the best of my knowledge, most Captains alternate legs with the F/O, at least the airline pilots I have talked to do so and say it is pretty standard these days.
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MissedApproach
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Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 10:12 am

RE: PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:21 pm

I believe it's also pretty standard for the PNF to raise & lower flaps & landing gear at the request of the pilot flying (or at the appropriate placard speeds), as well as calling out airspeed & altitude during approach & takeoff.
Can you hear me now?
 
pilotpip
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RE: PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:08 pm

The PF flies the airplane. That's it. No comms and no button pushing if hand flying. Once on the autopilot (which the PNF engages once prompted by the PF), the PNF will make heading and mode changes but our SOP states the PNF changes altitude settings and wait for verification by the PF for redundancy and safety.

Again, this veries by SOP.
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wilco737
Posts: 7279
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RE: PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:37 pm

hey there,

here it is the same. When the PF is flying manually, he is ONLY flying manually, no other buttons to be used! will be all commanded to the PNF (even if the PF is the F/O, then you can give orders to the captain Big grin). If the Autopilot is flying the PF is only doing the inputs to the autopilot, like altitude, heading etc.

The PNF will get orders what to do from the PF, like editing the FMS for the further routing, doing paperwork, talking on the Radio, bring him the food  Wink (no wait, thats only valid for a cargo airplane  stirthepot ... hehe

WILCO737 (MD11F)
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CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:30 pm

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 4):
(no wait, thats only valid for a cargo airplane ... hehe

That's what we have an RFO for !!LOL

Also the PM (PNF) keeps the flt pln data , fuel and ATA over waypoints.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 3):
The PF flies the airplane. That's it. No comms and no button pushing if hand flying. Once on the autopilot (which the PNF engages once prompted by the PF), the PNF will make heading and mode changes but our SOP states the PNF changes altitude settings and wait for verification by the PF for redundancy and safety.

Again, this veries by SOP.

It certainly does vary, according to the company specific procedures.

For example,

Button pushing is allowed to be done by the flying pilot, while hand flying, when he so desires to select his own flight director modes and, if convenient, FMS selections, in my company.

Oh, I can hear it now from the 'highly automated' (and over-regulated, with restrictive SOP) folks...'OMG, that couldn't be safe.'

Well, guess what.
This was done for years and years in earlier aircraft, as each pilot (for example) HAD to make his own heading and flight director selections simply because there was no glare shield panel selections for these items...all control 'knobs, switches' were on each pilots individual instrument panel, not centrally located.

Crew co-ordination is all fine and dandy, but there are many times when heading/altitude changes need to be made NOW, and the NFP is occupied with (for example) company radio communications...so the flying pilot just has to be adaptable.

Can't do this?
Find another profession.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting 411A (Reply 6):
Oh, I can hear it now from the 'highly automated' (and over-regulated, with restrictive SOP) folks...'OMG, that couldn't be safe



Quoting 411A (Reply 6):
Can't do this?
Find another profession.

That's pretty extreme view...really. I'll be the first to say yeah, I can do it...and have..but there's reasons why we don't. We have it spelled out very clear who will do what. Does that make us incompetent robots..no. It's just cuts a few more chances to miss something else. For eg. the PF will not edit the FMS in a climb or descent...why? to easy to miss a possible alt. bust if the a/p doesn't go to HOLD. It can happen and I've seen it. If I'm hand flying and we get a new hdg I can still turn the jet before the PM(PNF) reaches over a selects the hdg. The older jets really were less workload than newer ones even though there's plenty of automation. The old DC-10 was a piece of cake work wise compared to the MD-11.There were no choices, you dialed a radial vor or nav and flew an app. The MD-11 can do virtually everything for you but you must verify it does what it's supposed to. There's various levels of automation that can require even more attention and our policies are to insure BOTH guys aren't "heads down" at any time. Most violations involve subtle mistakes that are caught too late such as alt. violations and gross nav errors and when you find yourself in some remote part of the world trying your best to understand what the controller is saying it's good to keep the "John Wayneing" to someone else. Murphy's Law says if there's a chance something will go wrong, it will and at the worst possible moment. That's what we're trying to avoid. Or as they used to say on Candid Camera..."when you least expect it you're elected, you're the star today...smile you're on Candid Camera". With less than a year to go (unless they change the age 60 rule) I've never been the "star today" and I'll continue till the end to make sure I'm not.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
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RE: PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 4):
bring him the food Wink (no wait, thats only valid for a cargo airplane stirthepot ... hehe

This is just the Captain's excuse to get up and stretch his legs  Smile


While jumpseating (I do it a lot) I have noticed that both pilots are in constant communication doublechecking each and every input into aircraft sytems (altitudes, speeds, com and NAV frequencies etc.). No pilots touches any button (except maybe his reading lights) without informing the other one.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
I have noticed that both pilots are in constant communication doublechecking each and every input into aircraft sytems (altitudes, speeds, com and NAV frequencies etc.). No pilots touches any button (except maybe his reading lights) without informing the other one.

Oh yeah, thats very important!! Everything will be checked, double checked, triple checked  Wink Thats the way to reduce mistakes or some more serious problems! Especially after a long haul flight through the night! Then you dont need any trouble during the approach, so double check everything...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
Alias1024
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RE: PF Duties Versus PNF Duties

Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:01 am

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 3):
The PF flies the airplane. That's it. No comms and no button pushing if hand flying. Once on the autopilot (which the PNF engages once prompted by the PF), the PNF will make heading and mode changes but our SOP states the PNF changes altitude settings and wait for verification by the PF for redundancy and safety.

Again, this veries by SOP.

It certainly does.

At my airline the PF is allowed while hand flying to engage the autopilot, but not select autopilot modes, even though the buttons are right next to each other. PF is however allowed to program their FMS while hand flying (I didn't say the policies all make sense). Of course the PF has the option to ask the PNF to change the FMS for them. With the autopilot disengaged the PF can select headings since each pilot has their own heading selector, but must command the PNF to switch the mode to heading if not already there. The pilot who responds to ATC altitude instructions is the one to input them into the altitude alerter (almost always PNF), and they must be verified by the other pilot. On instrument approaches the PNF inputs altitudes.

Quoting JETBLUEATASW (Thread starter):
Also, does it differ when the PF is the CAPTAIN, and PNF is the First officer, does it change when the PF becomes the First officer and the PNF becomes the captain?

It differs on the ground for taxiing and aborted takeoff. Basically all responsibilities are divided up by Captain or First Officer until lined up on the runway, at which time they are divided PF/PNF. We only have one steering tiller, so the Captain will taxi. The abort decision is the Captain's, even if they are PNF. They usually keeps their hand near the throttles when the FO is taking off, and will take control of the aircraft if an abort should become necessary.

Quoting 411A (Reply 6):
Crew co-ordination is all fine and dandy, but there are many times when heading/altitude changes need to be made NOW, and the NFP is occupied with (for example) company radio communications...so the flying pilot just has to be adaptable.

My airline's FOM includes something to that effect. Flying the aircraft safely and in compliance with ATC instructions takes priority over the division of tasks outlined in company procedures.
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