LY777
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767-300: Lateral Movements

Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:40 pm

Yesterday, I flew for the first time on a 767-300, with LY. I was on row 43 (last row is 50); I noticed during take off that there were from time to time lateral movements. Is it due to the lenght of the a/c which is longer than the 762 (I have flown many times on the 762, and never noticed such movements) or due to the weather? Is the 762 more stable because of it being stubby?



BTW, concerning the plane, 4X-EAJ, the cabin still shows its Condor heritage, with lot of grey (walls, the cabin of the toilets), we could also see some words in german! the cabin is in a better shape than on the 762, although my seat pocket was broken!!!
BTW, the cabin seemed so long and narrow compared to the 762, a good experience.

[Edited 2007-09-03 16:40:49]
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flytuitravel
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:17 am

Could have just been turbulence...
 
Viscount724
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:36 am

Probably just compensating for crosswinds. I have noticed the same thing on almost all types from time to time.
 
ChiGB1973
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Sep 04, 2007 12:41 am

While at TZ, I could not really notice it on a 752, but it's very obvious on the 753.

Quoting FlyTUITravel (Reply 1):
Could have just been turbulence...

Yeah, but with the 753, it can be see during taxi, take-off, doesn't necessarily have to be turbulence, but it is noticeable then too.

M
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Sep 04, 2007 3:05 am

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
. I was on row 43 (last row is 50);

I call the after seat rows of long widebodies "the whiplash zone". Movements of the aircraft tend to be accentuated here, especially yaw.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SlamClick
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:32 am

Not all yaw dampers are created equal.

What I suspect is true is this: The autopilot is two-axis only, that is it is active in pitch and roll only. Rudder functions, turn coordination etc. are left up to the full-time yaw damper.

This is how it worked on another Boeing. Unfortunately, my 767 pilot handbook sucketh mightily. It has NO description of ANY aircraft system. All it has is the panel pictures with the laundry list of what this switch or that does in any given position. The Fed who approved the manual should be publicly flogged. He permitted the system knowledge to be dumbed down into virtual extinction.

Anyway that is how it works on another Boeing of similar vintage. So the autopilot flies the plane with elevator and with aileron/roll spoiler. The yaw damp is just sitting back there pushing and pulling on rudder linkage in response only to sensed yaw moments without regard for what might have caused them. So a gust of wind picks up one wing a little bit and that causes a tiny bit of yaw. The damper mashes on the linkage. Your head sways from side to side.

Better over mid-wing.
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fr8mech
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:18 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 5):
He permitted the system knowledge to be dumbed down into virtual extinction.

Yeah, but with the more advanced aircraft (and the B757/767 fall into that category) what does a pilot really need to know, except what button does what and what do all those infernal warning sounds (owl, bell, siren) mean.
 box 

Seriously, as I recall the B767 does have a 3 axis autopilot. Full control and authority, though at speed, the yaw damp system has more authority than the autopilot. That's all from memory. If I ever get done with my homework, I'll get on the other computer and look it up.
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Starlionblue
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:42 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 5):
The Fed who approved the manual should be publicly flogged.

"The beatings will continue until moral improves."
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
SlamClick
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Sep 04, 2007 10:47 am

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 6):
Yeah, but with the more advanced aircraft (and the B757/767 fall into that category) what does a pilot really need to know, except what button does what and what do all those infernal warning sounds (owl, bell, siren) mean.

I for one would like to be able to answer the question when asked by a passenger: "Does this have a two-axis or three-axis autopilot?" Apparently the company is okay with it if I slump my shoulders and say "I donno."
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fr8mech
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:12 am

Ok, from the AMM:

(1) The Autopilot/Flight Director System provides automatic control of the ailerons, elevator, stabilizer, and rudder control systems for flying selected flight modes. It provides pitch and roll flight director commands, system warnings, and mode annunciations. Rudder directional control is provided during the landing rollout.

(2) The Yaw Damper System provides automatic yaw damping to the rudder to minimize oscillations due to Dutch roll and gust induced side slip. It also provides turn coordination.

Don't get me wrong, Slam. I wish the flight crew knew all about the systems. It would make my job easier, but sometimes too much information to the flight crew is determental to good maintenance. They read into things that just aren't there.

edit: I read the paragraph again and decided to post it as I misread it originally.

[Edited 2007-09-04 19:18:09]
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SlamClick
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:22 am

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 9):
sometimes too much information to the flight crew is determental to good maintenance. They read into things that just aren't there.

Understood. I am neither an A nor a P but my own early background was maintenance and I am sort of inclined that way. If there is anything I get from my knowledge of aircraft systems is a deep and abiding respect for my ignorance of same.

Rule number one: Do not diagnose in the logbook.
Rule number two: Do not tell the mechanic how to fix it in your writeup.

Report symptoms as accurately as you can. Include the conditions where it occurred if that is useful information. That's about it for me.
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fr8mech
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 10):
Rule number one: Do not diagnose in the logbook.
Rule number two: Do not tell the mechanic how to fix it in your writeup.

Report symptoms as accurately as you can. Include the conditions where it occurred if that is useful information. That's about it for me.

You should teach a class.

As to the question above. I've seen this on longer aircraft. I flew with a cargo outfit and was converting the main deck of a DC8-63 in flight and found it rather unsettling in the back of the aircraft. I could feel it shimmy. I've seen it on B757's while flying in the back. Never felt, or seen it, on a widebody though.
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SlamClick
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:06 am

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 11):
You should teach a class.

I did. I told my students pretty much what I wrote above.  Smile

BTW I have to take little bitty issue with your signature line, at least where MEL items are concerned. Ever look up "wing" in the MEL? Not there, right? Okay, CDL either.

No "2 installed 1 required" kind of thing.
Authorized?

P.S. I tried the recipe in your profile. The corn and the salmon were terriffic but the plank was tough.
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fr8mech
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):
BTW I have to take little bitty issue with your signature line, at least where MEL items are concerned. Ever look up "wing" in the MEL? Not there, right? Okay, CDL either.

But that is where common sense, engineering and maintenance control come in. At least 2 need to agree. Usually it's maintenance control that spoils the party.

The salmon is outstanding when you rub brown sugar into it about 2 hours prior to the cooking.  yummy 

This veered off from shimmying to autopilots, PiRep etiquette and fish.  Confused
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SlamClick
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:59 am

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 13):
This veered off from shimmying to autopilots, PiRep etiquette and fish.

You ever wonder what kind of yaw damper salmon have?
Obviously very active.
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AJ
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:51 am

As the original post referred to take off I would be a bit concned if the yaw damper was booting the rudder during that phase of flight!  Wink
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 14):

You ever wonder what kind of yaw damper salmon have?
Obviously very active.

Yeah but after one ascent you have to end of life it...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
speedracer1407
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:20 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 12):

P.S. I tried the recipe in your profile. The corn and the salmon were terrific but the plank was tough.



Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 13):
The salmon is outstanding when you rub brown sugar into it about 2 hours prior to the cooking.

Where is this recipe!? Fr8Mech's profile doesn't seem to have it anymore.

Anyway, I feel compelled to share an easy and delicious sauce for any expertly-cooked salmon, in return for this apparently delicious salmon recipe.

In a fry/saute pan, saute garlic and/or diced onion to taste on medium/high heat. Juice the heat to high, let the pan get smoky-hot (making sure to avoid burning the onions and/or garlic), and add a cup or so of white wine. A Chardonnay that's undergone a fair amount of malolactic fermentation will be less likely to impart too much acidity to the sauce. Anyway, reduce the wine; it should be just a bubbly film on the bottom of the pan when reduced. Add stock; for a fishy taste add clam juice or home-made fish stock, or for sensible people, add 1/2 clam juice and 1/2 chicken stock--in total, about 1 cup, depending on the size of the salmon. Maintain high or medium-high heat and reduce to the stock to whatever quantity desired. At some point mid-way through the reduction process, add a tablespoon or two of molasses and stir. Prepare a Rue--basically mash a tablespoon or two of butter into an equal amount of flour. Remove the pan from heat, and beat the rue into the sauce until thickened.

It's a simple and not terribly creative french-style sauce that can surely be found, in various forms, in any french cookbook. But recent culinary trends towards sauceless proteins always leave me wanting. Make the sauce. It tastes better.

Oh
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PGNCS
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:18 am

Well if it happened on takeoff I presume it was due to changing rudder input due to crosswind. This is fairly noticeable on the 763 and can be positively disconcerting in the back of the 764. Whiplash zone is right.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Fri Sep 07, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Speedracer1407 (Reply 17):
Anyway, I feel compelled to share an easy and delicious sauce for any expertly-cooked salmon, in return for this apparently delicious salmon recipe.

Sharing salmon recipes are we? Here's a very simple one.

- Acquire a piece of salmon filet (not a cutlet). A bit less than a pound for most couple. Leave the skin on.
- Put in ziploc bag and add the rest of the ingredients.
- 1 dl (½ cup) of teriyaki sauce.
- 1 tsp of ground ginger.
- 1 clove garlic.
- 1 teaspoon Sambal Oelek.
- 1 teaspoon white vine vinegar.
- Put ziploc bag in large bowl (in case of leaks) and put the thing in the fridge.
- Leave to marinate for at least 12 hours.
- Fire up yer grill and give it 6-8 minutes on each side. Medium.

Mmmmmmmm...

The same marinade is fantastic for flanksteak if you remove the ginger. Grill 10-11 minutes each side then slice diagonally into thin slices.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Ncfc99
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:30 am

I flew on a 767 from SFB-LGW a few years ago. During turbulence over the atlantic, I could see the front of the fuselage moving and flexing. This felt very odd. The best way to describe it is like looking from one carrage to another on a train. I assume this is what you guys are talking about as I am not very tech minded.
 
ex52tech
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Oct 02, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 6):
Yeah, but with the more advanced aircraft (and the B757/767 fall into that category) what does a pilot really need to know, except what button does what and what do all those infernal warning sounds (owl, bell, siren) mea

I totally disagree.

I have walked off of the flight deck on a few occasions thinking......"If they only knew how that system worked and how close they came, they would be peeing their pants right now."

The more a pilot knows about a system the better he will be at writing up what is wrong, or not doing any damage when a system fails. I can filter out the guys that tell me how to fix a problem, I never let those guys get to me, I'm the one that may have to sign it off anyway.

Ex.
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Ward86IND
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:34 am

I experienced a lot of lateral movemen and whiplash in the back of an A319, moreso than on the back of a B753. A lot of it must depend on the winds...
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n710ps
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RE: 767-300: Lateral Movements

Tue Oct 02, 2007 1:06 pm

Some times it is just overcorrection from the guys (or gals) in the sharp side of the airplane at times. I have experinced it in the back a few times on planes like the 321, 757, A-330 and even on the 767-200. It just depends on the conditions prevailing and what it takes to keep her on the center line really. Nothing major.
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