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readytotaxi
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MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:25 am

Hi, just watch a video of a KLM MD11 landing in Ecuador and can not understand the amount of flap used to stop the aircraft, is this normal? Never flown on one. You could not have anymore out there unless the stewardess hung the blankets on the line, is it that the norm because air is thinner there, amazed.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:30 am

Flaps 35 is norm, max is flaps 50. Flaps 50 shortens rollout by about 500'.
 
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 1):

Thanks,looks plus 35
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LTU932
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:49 am

Isn't the MD-11 (and the DC-10, since both basically share the same wing) the aircraft with the highest flap setting in the world? I know the 727 and 737 have settings up to flaps 40, but that setting was rarely used, flaps 30 seemed to be more the standard setting for a landing configuration.

So, for the sake of discussion, what effects would it have if the MD-11 and DC-10 had double-slotted flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps they already have. Could this have drastically reduced also the final approach speed, given that with the current flaps, the MD-11 requires very high approach speeds when compared to other widebodies?
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wilco737
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
So, for the sake of discussion, what effects would it have if the MD-11 and DC-10 had double-slotted flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps they already have. Could this have drastically reduced also the final approach speed, given that with the current flaps, the MD-11 requires very high approach speeds when compared to other widebodies?

If you use flaps 50° the aircraft is a little shaking because of the very high amount of drag. And yes, the approach speeds are really high! At Max Landing weight (222.9 tons at LH Carg) you have a Vref of 163 which gives you a Vappr of 168... Pretty fast if you ask me... But its fun Big grin

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MD11Engineer
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
Isn't the MD-11 (and the DC-10, since both basically share the same wing) the aircraft with the highest flap setting in the world? I know the 727 and 737 have settings up to flaps 40, but that setting was rarely used, flaps 30 seemed to be more the standard setting for a landing configuration.

First, the MD-11 has a completely redesigned wing and in this aspect has very little in common with the DC-10 (except the mechanics).
On the Douglas planes, the flap setting is given in degrees deflction, while on the Boeings the numbers are just units.

Jan
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
First, the MD-11 has a completely redesigned wing and in this aspect has very little in common with the DC-10 (except the mechanics).

I stand corrected. But still, regarding my question, what would be the effect on the MD-11's performance in a landing configuration if they used double-slotted (or even triple-slotted) flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps?
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
On the Douglas planes, the flap setting is given in degrees deflction, while on the Boeings the numbers are just units.

Uhhh...noooo. Are you sure you are not thinking of Airbus?
 
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
So, for the sake of discussion, what effects would it have if the MD-11 and DC-10 had double-slotted flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps they already have.

Surely the DC-10 and MD-11 have double slotted flaps already?


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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
On the Douglas planes, the flap setting is given in degrees deflction, while on the Boeings the numbers are just units.

Uhhh...noooo. Are you sure you are not thinking of Airbus?

Yes, I am sure. The manuals for the 737 just speak of units, just numbers. They don't speak of any degrees and from what I remember from flap rigging, the numbers don't correspond to degrees deflection.
The same applis to the 727, 757 and 767, and IIRC the 747 classic.
This might be because the Boeing fowler flaps extend first aft before deflecting downwards.

Douglas flaps are just hinged and deflect directly.

Jan
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 7):
Uhhh...noooo. Are you sure you are not thinking of Airbus?

I presume you're confusing it because Airbus has a different terminology for flap setting (e.g. Flaps 1, Flaps 1+F, Flaps 2, etc.), while Boeing uses e.g. Flaps 1, Flaps 5, Flaps 15, etc.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 8):
Surely the DC-10 and MD-11 have double slotted flaps already?

Visually, it looks odd, because it looks more one-slotted to the naked eye then double-slotted, or I'm simply too used to Boeing's standard double-slotted flaps.  Silly

Seriously though, I always thought of those flaps as one-slotted and never double-slotted, because it visually looks like one-slotted, at least at first glance.
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readytotaxi
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:24 am

Okay people here is the video link,
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...rline_KLM_Aviation_Video-4845.html

Looks like a lot of flap to me.
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wilco737
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 11):

Yeah, this looks like flaps 50° here for sure. And in Quito (high elevation) you want to reduce the touchdown speed as much as you can to avoid hot brakes and reduce the landing distance.
I remember an approach to NBO and it was a normal day with pretty high weight and the tochdown speed was 184 knots (Ground speed)! and this was already flaps 50°... with flaps 35° it would be about 5 knots higher...

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LTU932
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 12):
I remember an approach to NBO and it was a normal day with pretty high weight and the tochdown speed was 184 knots (Ground speed)! and this was already flaps 50°... with flaps 35° it would be about 5 knots higher...

What's the max tyre speed on standard tyres and highspeed tyres on the MD-11? Or does the MD-11 use by default highspeed tyres?
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:42 am

The MD-11 flaps have a small, spring loaded foreflap mounted to them, which is, in retracted position, hidden inside the rear spare area. Thus it is a double slotted flap.

BTW, the MD-11 flaps are huge. If they are extended on ground, the indoard flap trailing edge is only about 1.5 meters off the ground.

Jan
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
The MD-11 flaps have a small, spring loaded foreflap mounted to them, which is, in retracted position, hidden inside the rear spare area. Thus it is a double slotted flap.

Thanks. That clears it up for good.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 12):
remember an approach to NBO and it was a normal day with pretty high weight and the tochdown speed was 184 knots (Ground speed)! and this was already flaps 50°...

That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
What's the max tyre speed on standard tyres and highspeed tyres on the MD-11?

204kts

In the sim doing a flap retract app & ldg you's see 190kts and you're smoking!
 
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Don't forget that NBO is a high altitude airport at over 5000 ft high. Maybe the high altitude helped increase the groundspeed along with other asociated factors like e.g. a tailwind.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Nairobi is 5,330 feet elevation. At this altitude if IAS was 168 knots, GS would be 182 knots in still air. A couple of knots tailwind gives the GS rmentioned.
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 18):
At this altitude if IAS was 168 knots, GS would be 182 knots in still air

Yep. TAS & GS would be the same in still air. I didn't know NBO nor its elev. But you can see my confusion that the app. speed was given as a GS and I assumed that at that wgt I sure would do my best not to have a tailwind. The MD-11 is certainly a fast jet on app but 184 shocked me.....  Wow!
 
wilco737
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:12 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
What's the max tyre speed on standard tyres and highspeed tyres on the MD-11?

204 kts

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Yeah, the high elevation and we use a higher max landing weight as you guys do (222.9 tons) and there were slight tailwind on that day... so thats why we had a little over 180kts groundspeed upon touchdown...
Just got back home from a FERRY flight to EMA, TOW only 150tons, what an incredible climb performance Big grin Big grin

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musapapaya
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:47 pm

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 20):
Just got back home from a FERRY flight to EMA, TOW only 150tons, what an incredible climb performance

Hey WILCO737,

A silly question I know but I always wonder, and want to have your personal opinions, when you fly a frieghter just like what you do now, do you fly in a different manner than flying a passenger flight, just like you did on a 737? The reason I asked is when I was at Manchester spotting, I saw frieghters landing so hard even on quite a clam day when other planes flare slowly. Since you flew both therefore your professional comments would be valuable!

Thanks!
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:37 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 21):
when you fly a frieghter just like what you do now, do you fly in a different manner than flying a passenger flight, just like you did on a 737?

No not really any difference...all the same .....having said that and it's been discussed here before we do have the opportunity to fly perhaps a little more agressively than a pax flight just for the reason there's no one walking around. I purely mean just little things like perhaps leveling at 10,000' pulling full speed brakes slowing rapidly then descending or configuring a little later in order to keep the speed up, nothing really more than that. Remember we still have the same limitations that we must operate under.


[

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 21):
when I was at Manchester spotting, I saw frieghters landing so hard even on quite a clam day when other planes flare slowly.

Then you must have missed my landing at MAN last week!  Silly
There really shouldn't be any difference.
 
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 22):
Then you must have missed my landing at MAN last week!
There really shouldn't be any difference.

Oh I wasnt there last week. Just out of interest and if you dont mind telling me, who do you work for, then I can look at you next time?
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 20):
TOW only 150tons, what an incredible climb performance

Yes, and V1 & Vr are coming very quickly aren't they? I've seen it a few times. We do CDG-FRA and it's a very light flight. zoooom or as I say "yeee haaa!"
 
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 21):

Well, I fly the same way... doesnt matter to me... I like it smooth and comfortable for myself Big grin

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):

Yeah, it was like back on the 737... V1 and Vr the same speed (135kias) Big grin ROCKET Big grin

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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:44 am

Full flaps on the MD-11 are 50. They droop very low down compared to other aircraft.


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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:13 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
Yes, and V1 & Vr are coming very quickly aren't they? I've seen it a few times. We do CDG-FRA and it's a very light flight. zoooom or as I say "yeee haaa!"

I've had a few ATL-AGS, ATL-CAE and similar ferry flights....block out fuel of like 40.0 by the time you realize that the throttles are being moved forward the PNF is calling "rotate"
 
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RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 23):

Oh I wasnt there last week. Just out of interest and if you dont mind telling me, who do you work for, then I can look at you next time?

You mean you can't make an educated guess as to CC's employer? It's pretty obvious...
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:28 pm

From what I have read and in talking to DC-10 and MD-11 crews, they are unstable on approach due to their small tails and no elevators. Douglas designed them this way to minimize drag caused by the high tail mounted engine. As a result, you have to keep the speed up around 185 knots on landing and not get the nose too high or it'll 'blank out' the tail. The MD-11 has one of the highest approach speeds of any commercial aircraft. The L-1011 was much more stable on approach because of the Direct Lift Control and the flying tail. I've seen approach speeds on the L-1011 down as low as 115 knots.
 
BravoOne
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Jan 18, 2017 7:31 pm

Sparky where do come up this blank out the tail ideas?. Simply not so.
 
barney captain
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 7:23 am

BravoOne wrote:
Sparky where do come up this blank out the tail ideas?. Simply not so.


He resurrects a TEN year old thread, and that's what you question him on? LOL.
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richcam427
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 9:06 am

Holy epic thread bump.
 
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Jan 19, 2017 2:49 pm

richcam427 wrote:
Holy epic thread bump.


True, but going back through this thread proves yet again that we have lost some great members on here with a lot of knowledge.
 
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readytotaxi
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:10 am

As I started this, would be nice if that aircraft was still flying with KLM. :cloudnine:
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
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Jetlagged
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:30 pm

sparky739 wrote:
From what I have read and in talking to DC-10 and MD-11 crews, they are unstable on approach due to their small tails and no elevators. Douglas designed them this way to minimize drag caused by the high tail mounted engine. As a result, you have to keep the speed up around 185 knots on landing and not get the nose too high or it'll 'blank out' the tail. The MD-11 has one of the highest approach speeds of any commercial aircraft. The L-1011 was much more stable on approach because of the Direct Lift Control and the flying tail. I've seen approach speeds on the L-1011 down as low as 115 knots.

Small tails and no elevators? The DC-10 had conventional longitudinal controls with elevators and a trimmable horizontal stabiliser. The MD-11 had a similar system but smaller tail surfaces to reduce drag and an LSAS autostabilisation system to maintain longitudinal stablilty.
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CrimsonNL
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:54 pm

Wow I only realized this thread is so old when I saw that flightlevel 350 link! Meanwhile Jetlagged is casually continuing on topic 10 years later :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

So does 50 degrees flap setting not cause any problems? I seem to recall reading that flaps 40 was disabled by some airlines on the 727 because of control issues..

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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:25 am

Flaps 40 on the B727 didn't cause control issues, it was not necessary for most operations (although some retained it like Air Mike for short fields)
and there were a few incidents due to it's very high sink rate at flaps 40.


If you didn't respond quickly with a LOT of thrust and you were close to the ground you were going to hit Very hard.


It wasn't really 'disabled' most airlines simply installed a blocking pin on the center pedestal behind the flaps 30
position preventing further extension, if this was removed they would go to 40 degrees as they would if extended
by the alternate system despite the blocking pin.
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benbeny
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:09 am

I remember reading somewhere that 707 doesn't have slats but capable of flaps 50... is the high lift design matter?
 
BravoOne
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:41 pm

There were a lot if different flap and slat configurations on the 707 bot I don't recall, or remember any flap 50 setting. They all had various leading devices.
 
BravoOne
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:17 pm

Here is a definitive post on the 707 flap/slat configs. It was always a joke that every new 707 off the line at Renton was a prototype as no two were ever alike.
 
113312
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:44 pm

No Boeing 707 or 720 model had "slats". They did, however, have various configurations of Leading Edge Flaps. The Boeing 727 and 737 have flaps and slats. The Boeing 747 models have two kinds of LE Flaps: Kreuger and Variable Camber.
 
BravoOne
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Mar 30, 2017 5:35 pm

113312 wrote:
No Boeing 707 or 720 model had "slats". They did, however, have various configurations of Leading Edge Flaps. The Boeing 727 and 737 have flaps and slats. The Boeing 747 models have two kinds of LE Flaps: Kreuger and Variable Camber.



You are correct of course just a bad habit of lumping them all into one category.
 
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:48 am

CrimsonNL wrote:
Wow I only realized this thread is so old when I saw that flightlevel 350 link! Meanwhile Jetlagged is casually continuing on topic 10 years later

Martijn


You weren't here when they switched the board format and all the old, locked threads got unlocked. Some people went and dug up some real classics...

Anyway, I was reflecting on all of this and I was thinking about a chapter I once read in an aerodynamics book about how the slots in flaps ultimately delay a longitudinal rise in pressure along the top of the wing, which gets worse as camber gets higher. Newer wings are able to optimize lift so as to provide better efficiency with less deflection, and thus with fewer slots. The details of how vary, however, with each wing.
-Doc Lightning-

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CrimsonNL
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Fri Mar 31, 2017 5:11 am

DocLightning wrote:

You weren't here when they switched the board format and all the old, locked threads got unlocked. Some people went and dug up some real classics...


I've been here non-stop for the past 10 years! :old:

Martijn
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DocLightning
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:34 pm

CrimsonNL wrote:

I've been here non-stop for the past 10 years! :old:

Martijn


Snowglobes. :mrgreen:
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readytotaxi
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Re: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Sat Apr 01, 2017 5:46 pm

There is life in my old post yet. :old: :rotfl:
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