User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 3479
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:25 am

Hi, just watch a video of a KLM MD11 landing in Ecuador and can not understand the amount of flap used to stop the aircraft, is this normal? Never flown on one. You could not have anymore out there unless the stewardess hung the blankets on the line, is it that the norm because air is thinner there, amazed.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:30 am

Flaps 35 is norm, max is flaps 50. Flaps 50 shortens rollout by about 500'.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 3479
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:31 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 1):

Thanks,looks plus 35
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13090
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 4:49 am

Isn't the MD-11 (and the DC-10, since both basically share the same wing) the aircraft with the highest flap setting in the world? I know the 727 and 737 have settings up to flaps 40, but that setting was rarely used, flaps 30 seemed to be more the standard setting for a landing configuration.

So, for the sake of discussion, what effects would it have if the MD-11 and DC-10 had double-slotted flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps they already have. Could this have drastically reduced also the final approach speed, given that with the current flaps, the MD-11 requires very high approach speeds when compared to other widebodies?
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
So, for the sake of discussion, what effects would it have if the MD-11 and DC-10 had double-slotted flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps they already have. Could this have drastically reduced also the final approach speed, given that with the current flaps, the MD-11 requires very high approach speeds when compared to other widebodies?

If you use flaps 50° the aircraft is a little shaking because of the very high amount of drag. And yes, the approach speeds are really high! At Max Landing weight (222.9 tons at LH Carg) you have a Vref of 163 which gives you a Vappr of 168... Pretty fast if you ask me... But its fun Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
Isn't the MD-11 (and the DC-10, since both basically share the same wing) the aircraft with the highest flap setting in the world? I know the 727 and 737 have settings up to flaps 40, but that setting was rarely used, flaps 30 seemed to be more the standard setting for a landing configuration.

First, the MD-11 has a completely redesigned wing and in this aspect has very little in common with the DC-10 (except the mechanics).
On the Douglas planes, the flap setting is given in degrees deflction, while on the Boeings the numbers are just units.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13090
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
First, the MD-11 has a completely redesigned wing and in this aspect has very little in common with the DC-10 (except the mechanics).

I stand corrected. But still, regarding my question, what would be the effect on the MD-11's performance in a landing configuration if they used double-slotted (or even triple-slotted) flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps?
 
phxpilot
Posts: 59
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:25 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:41 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
On the Douglas planes, the flap setting is given in degrees deflction, while on the Boeings the numbers are just units.

Uhhh...noooo. Are you sure you are not thinking of Airbus?
 
User avatar
Jetlagged
Posts: 2562
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:00 pm

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 3):
So, for the sake of discussion, what effects would it have if the MD-11 and DC-10 had double-slotted flaps instead of the one-slotted flaps they already have.

Surely the DC-10 and MD-11 have double slotted flaps already?


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Javier Guerrero - AirTeamImages
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Javier Rodriguez - Iberian Spotters



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mischa Oordijk

The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 6:59 am

Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):
On the Douglas planes, the flap setting is given in degrees deflction, while on the Boeings the numbers are just units.

Uhhh...noooo. Are you sure you are not thinking of Airbus?

Yes, I am sure. The manuals for the 737 just speak of units, just numbers. They don't speak of any degrees and from what I remember from flap rigging, the numbers don't correspond to degrees deflection.
The same applis to the 727, 757 and 767, and IIRC the 747 classic.
This might be because the Boeing fowler flaps extend first aft before deflecting downwards.

Douglas flaps are just hinged and deflect directly.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13090
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Tue Sep 04, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting Phxpilot (Reply 7):
Uhhh...noooo. Are you sure you are not thinking of Airbus?

I presume you're confusing it because Airbus has a different terminology for flap setting (e.g. Flaps 1, Flaps 1+F, Flaps 2, etc.), while Boeing uses e.g. Flaps 1, Flaps 5, Flaps 15, etc.

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 8):
Surely the DC-10 and MD-11 have double slotted flaps already?

Visually, it looks odd, because it looks more one-slotted to the naked eye then double-slotted, or I'm simply too used to Boeing's standard double-slotted flaps.  Silly

Seriously though, I always thought of those flaps as one-slotted and never double-slotted, because it visually looks like one-slotted, at least at first glance.
 
User avatar
readytotaxi
Posts: 3479
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 2:09 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:24 am

Okay people here is the video link,
http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...rline_KLM_Aviation_Video-4845.html

Looks like a lot of flap to me.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting Readytotaxi (Reply 11):

Yeah, this looks like flaps 50° here for sure. And in Quito (high elevation) you want to reduce the touchdown speed as much as you can to avoid hot brakes and reduce the landing distance.
I remember an approach to NBO and it was a normal day with pretty high weight and the tochdown speed was 184 knots (Ground speed)! and this was already flaps 50°... with flaps 35° it would be about 5 knots higher...

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13090
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 12):
I remember an approach to NBO and it was a normal day with pretty high weight and the tochdown speed was 184 knots (Ground speed)! and this was already flaps 50°... with flaps 35° it would be about 5 knots higher...

What's the max tyre speed on standard tyres and highspeed tyres on the MD-11? Or does the MD-11 use by default highspeed tyres?
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:42 am

The MD-11 flaps have a small, spring loaded foreflap mounted to them, which is, in retracted position, hidden inside the rear spare area. Thus it is a double slotted flap.

BTW, the MD-11 flaps are huge. If they are extended on ground, the indoard flap trailing edge is only about 1.5 meters off the ground.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13090
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:02 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
The MD-11 flaps have a small, spring loaded foreflap mounted to them, which is, in retracted position, hidden inside the rear spare area. Thus it is a double slotted flap.

Thanks. That clears it up for good.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 12):
remember an approach to NBO and it was a normal day with pretty high weight and the tochdown speed was 184 knots (Ground speed)! and this was already flaps 50°...

That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
What's the max tyre speed on standard tyres and highspeed tyres on the MD-11?

204kts

In the sim doing a flap retract app & ldg you's see 190kts and you're smoking!
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13090
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:15 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Don't forget that NBO is a high altitude airport at over 5000 ft high. Maybe the high altitude helped increase the groundspeed along with other asociated factors like e.g. a tailwind.
 
User avatar
Jetlagged
Posts: 2562
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:00 pm

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Nairobi is 5,330 feet elevation. At this altitude if IAS was 168 knots, GS would be 182 knots in still air. A couple of knots tailwind gives the GS rmentioned.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 18):
At this altitude if IAS was 168 knots, GS would be 182 knots in still air

Yep. TAS & GS would be the same in still air. I didn't know NBO nor its elev. But you can see my confusion that the app. speed was given as a GS and I assumed that at that wgt I sure would do my best not to have a tailwind. The MD-11 is certainly a fast jet on app but 184 shocked me.....  Wow!
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 1:12 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 13):
What's the max tyre speed on standard tyres and highspeed tyres on the MD-11?

204 kts

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 16):
That seems REALLY REALLY fast. I've landeed at max ldg wgt and flaps 35 and never seen more than about 168 IAS. You're saying this was grd spd so did you have a tail wind?

Yeah, the high elevation and we use a higher max landing weight as you guys do (222.9 tons) and there were slight tailwind on that day... so thats why we had a little over 180kts groundspeed upon touchdown...
Just got back home from a FERRY flight to EMA, TOW only 150tons, what an incredible climb performance Big grin Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
musapapaya
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:02 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 7:47 pm

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 20):
Just got back home from a FERRY flight to EMA, TOW only 150tons, what an incredible climb performance

Hey WILCO737,

A silly question I know but I always wonder, and want to have your personal opinions, when you fly a frieghter just like what you do now, do you fly in a different manner than flying a passenger flight, just like you did on a 737? The reason I asked is when I was at Manchester spotting, I saw frieghters landing so hard even on quite a clam day when other planes flare slowly. Since you flew both therefore your professional comments would be valuable!

Thanks!
William
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:37 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 21):
when you fly a frieghter just like what you do now, do you fly in a different manner than flying a passenger flight, just like you did on a 737?

No not really any difference...all the same .....having said that and it's been discussed here before we do have the opportunity to fly perhaps a little more agressively than a pax flight just for the reason there's no one walking around. I purely mean just little things like perhaps leveling at 10,000' pulling full speed brakes slowing rapidly then descending or configuring a little later in order to keep the speed up, nothing really more than that. Remember we still have the same limitations that we must operate under.


[

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 21):
when I was at Manchester spotting, I saw frieghters landing so hard even on quite a clam day when other planes flare slowly.

Then you must have missed my landing at MAN last week!  Silly
There really shouldn't be any difference.
 
musapapaya
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:02 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 8:44 pm

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 22):
Then you must have missed my landing at MAN last week!
There really shouldn't be any difference.

Oh I wasnt there last week. Just out of interest and if you dont mind telling me, who do you work for, then I can look at you next time?
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 20):
TOW only 150tons, what an incredible climb performance

Yes, and V1 & Vr are coming very quickly aren't they? I've seen it a few times. We do CDG-FRA and it's a very light flight. zoooom or as I say "yeee haaa!"
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Wed Sep 05, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 21):

Well, I fly the same way... doesnt matter to me... I like it smooth and comfortable for myself Big grin

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):

Yeah, it was like back on the 737... V1 and Vr the same speed (135kias) Big grin ROCKET Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
JAGflyer
Posts: 3453
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:31 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:44 am

Full flaps on the MD-11 are 50. They droop very low down compared to other aircraft.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Johan Kellerman




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael Durning

Support the beer and soda can industry, your recycle old airplanes!
 
Flyer732
Posts: 1321
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 6:09 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:13 am

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 24):
Yes, and V1 & Vr are coming very quickly aren't they? I've seen it a few times. We do CDG-FRA and it's a very light flight. zoooom or as I say "yeee haaa!"

I've had a few ATL-AGS, ATL-CAE and similar ferry flights....block out fuel of like 40.0 by the time you realize that the throttles are being moved forward the PNF is calling "rotate"
 
User avatar
Aaron747
Posts: 8560
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 2:07 am

RE: MD11 Landing, So Much Flaps?

Thu Sep 06, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 23):

Oh I wasnt there last week. Just out of interest and if you dont mind telling me, who do you work for, then I can look at you next time?

You mean you can't make an educated guess as to CC's employer? It's pretty obvious...
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: EvrenErdem and 10 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos