TheSonntag
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What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:09 am

Certainly nobody would be so stupid, but what actually happens if someone disobeys the instructions given by ATC? I understand that their commands are vital, but what actually happens if a pilot ignores ATC?

Will he be fined, is it a criminal offense, will his license be revoked? (if we assume he is not shot down)
 
N231YE
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:16 am

A multitude of things can happen, at the most extreme is the revocation of certificates.

In a deeper sense, its also not the most wise thing to do, since ATC has radar and the skill to keep airplanes apart (separation). Disobey them-and one can set up a dangerous, or even fatal, situation.
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:26 am

The only time I would ever intentionally disobey an ATC direction is when it's a safety matter that could not be safely resolved otherwise  Smile

I defer to the FAR's for that one:

§ 91.123 Compliance with ATC clearances and instructions.

(a) When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory. However, except in Class A airspace, a pilot may cancel an IFR flight plan if the operation is being conducted in VFR weather conditions. When a pilot is uncertain of an ATC clearance, that pilot shall immediately request clarification from ATC.

(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.

(c) Each pilot in command who, in an emergency, or in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory, deviates from an ATC clearance or instruction shall notify ATC of that deviation as soon as possible.

(d) Each pilot in command who (though not deviating from a rule of this subpart) is given priority by ATC in an emergency, shall submit a detailed report of that emergency within 48 hours to the manager of that ATC facility, if requested by ATC.

(e) Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, no person operating an aircraft may operate that aircraft according to any clearance or instruction that has been issued to the pilot of another aircraft for radar air traffic control purposes.
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N231YE
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:57 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 2):

I forgot, the damn government's favorite words; however, unless, except....  wink 

KELPkid has it though, " When an ATC clearance has been obtained, no pilot in command may deviate from that clearance unless  banghead  an amended clearance is obtained, an emergency exists, or the deviation is in response to a traffic alert and collision avoidance system resolution advisory."
 
zotan
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:59 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 3):
I forgot, the damn government's favorite words; however, unless, except.... wink

Need help understanding FAR 91? Look at the very first word ..

except
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 9:03 am

Quoting N231YE (Reply 3):
I forgot, the damn government's favorite words; however, unless, except.... wink

Yeah, and if you look at FAR 91.123 d), the government expects you to file a detailed report if you exercise your priveleges under FAR 91.123 b) (in true government fashion...)  Wink
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pilotpip
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:00 am

If you can't do something that ATC requests, it takes a simple phrase "unable".

The PIC is still the final authority. That being said, it's usually only common to flex that muscle in the name of safety. If I'm cleared for takeoff and I see another aircraft on short final, I hold short and notify ATC. If I'm incapable doing something they ask because I don't feel it's safe, I say so. If I have an emergency, I'm going to do what I need to do. Having said that, we're all a team. We rely on controllers to get us from point A to point B, and they rely on us for information for those behind us.
DMI
 
P3Orion
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:01 am

This topic reminds me of a session I had while working at Washington ARTCC a number of years ago. I was staffing the R side at the Casino Sector and an Air Tran B717 checked in at fifteen thousand on the VCN7 Arrival. I gave the pilot the ACY altimeter and to cross SIE at eleven thousand. A few moments later, the pilot stated they had smoke in the cockpit and wanted to divert to ACY. I cleared him direct, descended him to eight thousand and handed him off to ACY Approach. Approach told me they would not accept any more aircraft until Air Tran was safe on deck. Just then, Kenton Sector flashed me a flight of two F16's (IFR) inbound to ACY at thirteen thousand. When they checked in I told the pilot that ACY approach was not accepting aircraft, I had holding instructions, advise ready to copy. The pilot came back and said "we want to land at ACY." I replied with "Unable, Approach is not accepting hand-offs, they have an emergency in progress. Advise ready to copy your holding instructions." The zoomie came back and said "We're Air Force and hold for no-one." To which, I replied with: "Snake 11 cleared direct Fissh, hold southeast as published maintain one zero thousand through one one thousand. Expect Further Clearance Time XXXX." His response was "We're cancelling and going VFR."

Until the day I die, I will never get over that ANG pilot's attitude and arrogance.
I will have a Manhattan.
 
UncleBuck
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:12 am

they bend him over their knee and spank him. then make him stand in a corner for ten minutes.
 
2H4
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 12:19 pm

Several years ago, I landed on an active runway at a towered airport without a landing clearance, and ATC thanked me for doing so.  Smile


2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:20 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):
Several years ago, I landed on an active runway at a towered airport without a landing clearance, and ATC thanked me for doing so.


2H4

Hmmm....the one time I did that, I got chewed out by the sole tower controller. We were the last aircraft to use the field before the tower closed shop for the night (and there was no one else using the field). I'm just glad that she didn't report me to the FSDO.

We were cleared "for the visual approach", but not cleared to land. I didn't detect the subtle difference, and, of course, landed. When the tower frequency was awfully quiet, I asked the tower if they wanted me to taxi on the tower frequency, at which point I was chewed out on the tower frequency by the controller for landing without a clearance
 embarrassed 
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Alias1024
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:47 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):
Several years ago, I landed on an active runway at a towered airport without a landing clearance, and ATC thanked me for doing so.

That's a new one.

The one time I inadvertently landed without clearance I'm pretty sure tower didn't realize it either. I had entered the pattern at 1,500 AGL with about 7 other aircraft with instructions to follow the aircraft in front of me and don't descend until cleared to descend or land. When I called up midfield downwind, as was local procedure, the controller sounded very confused and started talking to another aircraft. I tried again on base, but again the controller responded to another aircraft. His responses made it clear he had lost situational awareness, and didn't know the sequence of aircraft in the pattern. My third call, I said I was turning final and emphasized I was still at 1,500 ft.

At this point the tower supervisor stepped in and quickly said "Nxxxxx, Descend". He then went about figuring out the correct sequence in the pattern, while I focused on slam dunking the Seminole. Right about the time the mains touched down I realized I hadn't been cleared to land. Never heard a word from the tower other than "contact ground, point niner". NASA form was in the mail that night though.
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InnocuousFox
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 1:59 pm

Quoting N231YE (Reply 1):
at the most extreme is the revocation of certificates.

I would contend that a mid-air would be more extreme than the above.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting InnocuousFox (Reply 12):
Quoting N231YE (Reply 1):
at the most extreme is the revocation of certificates.

I would contend that a mid-air would be more extreme than the above.

Yeah, but that's as a tangible consequence to disobeying ATC (potentially...). I think N231YE, and the OP, were more or less after what the regulatory agencies will do to you if you disregard ATC  Wink And this is indeed one of the reasons that the FAA treats such offenses in a manner like that...
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BreninTW
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 4:30 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):
Several years ago, I landed on an active runway at a towered airport without a landing clearance, and ATC thanked me for doing so.

OK, I'll bite -- pray tell what the situation was Big grin
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 5:00 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 9):
Several years ago, I landed on an active runway at a towered airport without a landing clearance, and ATC thanked me for doing so

Whats the Story  Smile
regds
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N231YE
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 7:19 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
And this is indeed one of the reasons that the FAA treats such offenses in a manner like that...

Yeah right...the FAA just wants to make our lives miserable and hell. FAA Motto: We're not happy until you're not happy.
 
2H4
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 15):
Whats the Story

Short final, stuck mike (not mine), and about 8 confused aircraft in the pattern. I opted to get out of the mess, continue the landing, vacate the runway, and call ground.  yes 


2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
TheSonntag
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Fri Sep 07, 2007 8:42 pm

Thank you all for your replies... So small misunderstandings can occur all the time, nice to see nobody's perfect...

Quoting N231YE (Reply 3):
I forgot, the damn government's favorite words; however, unless, except..

Reminds me of german law technique... "Grundsätzlich (in principle it is like that), es sei denn (unless  Wink)". Best example is the Autobahn: No speed limit, unless... (so in fact 50% are limited nevertheless... leaves still 3000 miles of free speeding for free people)
 
oly720man
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):
Certainly nobody would be so stupid,

This can and does happen where pilots do not understand English as well as they maybe should, for example.

I remember being at MAN when a CA B742 diverted in from LHR and it was quite obvious that as soon as the CA pilot could see MAN from the south he headed straight for the field and did a right hand 270 deg turn to land after going overhead MAN with ATC becoming more and more exasperated. For those familiar with MAN approaches to 24 (as was) from the south he should have gone to DAYNE and taken it from there, but the pilot's English and familiarity with the MAN area were both limited and he basically had no idea where he was or where to go.

Even longer ago I was at MAN and a pilot on a training flight over the field actually turned his radio down (so he could concentrate on something IIRC) - and couldn't be contacted - so another plane on final approach (a LH training aircraft - a Pa Cheyenne or similar... twin prop, high tail) was told to break off his approach. When contact was restored the other pilot was told to land immedately and go straight to the airport superintendant. Fortunately MAN was nowhere as busy as it is now.
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airfoilsguy
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Thread starter):
but what actually happens if someone disobeys the instructions given by ATC?

Depends on where you are. If you happen to be by Washington D.C.


It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
atct
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:05 am

To answer the original quesiton...

We fill out a "Pilot Deviation Report" and turn it in to FSDO. It takes alot for us to fill out one of these reports (99% of the time if you made a whoops, said you're sorry, no harm no foul). I have seen 2 in my time at the FAA so far filled out. Both we're for arrogance on the part of the pilot. (Broke an FAR, caused a problem, then had a bad attitude).

My advice to all pilots, if ya screw up, say you're sorry. Worked for me the 100 million times ive screwed up so far lol.

ATCT
ATC, Pilot
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IAHFLYR
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 6:25 am

Quoting ATCT (Reply 21):
My advice to all pilots, if ya screw up, say you're sorry. Worked for me the 100 million times ive screwed up so far lol.

I'll agree with my co-worker on this one......and it goes both ways, I screw up I say I'm sorry to the pilot and in almost every case they reply with a no problem or glad to help type of phrase.

A pilot has to really piss me off for me to want to turn them in for anything, period! I mean you think I want quality assurance listening to my tapes, OH NO......they don't listen to only that particular event they make a full 30 minute before and 30 minute after recording of the tapes! NOT

Quoting N231YE (Reply 16):
We're not happy until you're not happy.

 bigthumbsup 
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 20):

Depends on where you are. If you happen to be by Washington D.C.

So, the Jolly Rogers will come after me in their de-commisioned F-14 Tomcats, then?  Big grin  duck 
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cancidas
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:31 am

personlly i've only had to do it once, and i saw it as a safety issue. i was flying a bonanza and was cleared to land behind a departing warrior. when i was about 15 ft off the ground i was given a go-around. i responded that i was unable and landed the airplane. the warrior was about 1200 ft ahead of me and i stopped without incident. had i continued the go-around i would have easily overtaken the warrior. when i landed and taxiied to the ramp i was given a phone number to call. an inspector came to meet me at the FBO and we talked briefly with the controller involved also. nothing happenned to either of us in the long run, he issued the go-around because he didn't want to have two airpanes on the same runway at the same time. i refused the go-around simply because from my POV it was safer to land my airplane due in part to my altitude and not only because i was already configured and commied to landing.

i also will never do that again, and have since then have twice had to go-around twice due to inadequate spacing.
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71Zulu
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:44 am

Wouldn't want to trade places with this guy...

http://minorcrisis.net/files/morristown172%5B1%5D.mp3

 banghead 
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speedbird128
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:01 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 17):
vacate the runway, and call ground

When a frequency is blocked, there is nothing to stop one changing to GND freq (or APP if there is) prior to landing - often we can share tasks, and even run the circuit from the GND or APP freq...
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Panman
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:24 am

Tea and biscuits with the Chief Pilot perhaps?

pAnmAn
 
2H4
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:29 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 23):
So, the Jolly Rogers will come after me in their de-commisioned F-14 Tomcats, then?

Boy, I'm sure that would prove to be just a bit too tempting to many spotters around here...  Wink

Quoting Speedbird128 (Reply 26):
When a frequency is blocked, there is nothing to stop one changing to GND freq (or APP if there is) prior to landing

Good point, thanks. I didn't think of that at the time.


2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
dispatchguy
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RE: What Happens If A Pilot Disobeys ATC?

Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:59 pm

Declare an emergency and you can do whatever you want - BUT YOU BETTER BE ABLE TO BACK IT UP.

In that case, the ATCOs desires as far as how he was running his sector, tower, go out the window and he will do whatever is necessary to separate your airplane from the rest of the pack, and support you with whatever you need to handle your emergency, and get you on the ground safely.

Do a google search on EGF 230, an E135 departing ORD and suffering a major flight control system malfunction. There is a combination radar screen/audio tape which is incredible to listen to; that controller earned his pay that day (well, they do that every day).

I had to declare an Emergency for one of my flights once as a dispatcher, I still remember the hairs on the back of my neck standing straight up when I said that to the ARTCC Shift Manager.

Once you declare an emergency, at least under US FARs, you can deviate from any rule to the extent necessary to meet the emergency.

[Edited 2007-09-24 16:02:14]
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