NBGSkyGod
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Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:13 am

Let me just introduce myself, I am an Air Traffic Controller at Lebanon Municipal Airport (KLEB) in western New Hampshire. Now on to the topic at hand:

Our airspace is Delta with 2 Class Echo Extensions to accommodate our instrument approaches. Because our tower is only open 16 hours the Delta part of the airspace goes away, and according to the A/FD and our recent FAA inspection our airspace becomes class Golf.

A pilot called me the other day asking, if during IFR conditions when the tower is closed, does the airspace become Echo (due to the extensions) or does it stay Golf? I did not have an answer for him, so I consulted the manuals (7110.65R, FARs, AIM, and several other manuals), none of them could give me an answer. So I called the Portland, ME FSDO, they didn't have an answer, neither did the FAA New England regional office.

So I pose this question to you guys now. What happens to the surface area when the delta closes, does it become Echo or does it become Golf?
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
N231YE
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:10 am

Would another facility take over radar service, keeping it a class E?

This is just a guess, but taken from a similar Class D facility (MFD) with approaches (but no Class E extensions) in my area, according to Airnav:

"APCH/DEP SERVICE PROVIDED BY CLEVELAND ARTCC ON FREQS 134.9/317.7 (MANSFIELD RCAG)WHEN APCH CONTROL CLOSED."

Again, just a guess, so I'll leave it up to the more experienced members to fill in, and maybe I can get the "ball rolling."
 
Soku39
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:46 am

It was my understanding that after a class D tower closes it becomes a surface based class E, with whatever extensions for instrument approaches remaining class E. For instance after Cuyahoga County's tower closes you can still get the ILS from cleveland center/approach, and they will control you up until your cancellation or an approved change to advisory freq (and if you keep IFR, you'll still be on your plan until you call and cancel). This is just my understanding, I may well be wrong, and of course there are anamolies and irregularities everywhere. I'm sorta thinking about out West where radar coverage may not be quite as dense as in Ohio, but then I would be inclined to think that the center would simply use non radar seperation standards for IFR traffic in their airspace (including a class D with a closed tower).

N231YE, I'd also like to say most class Ds don't have approach but Mansfield, Youngstown, and Erie do which are just a few of those anamolies I was speaking of. (and I do realize it's airspace that you and I are really familiar with which is probably why you used that example I'm guessing)

[Edited 2007-09-08 23:50:20]
The Ohio Player
 
Mir
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:21 am

There is, to my knowledge, no such thing as temporary Class G in the US. If airspace is controlled part-time, it reverts to Class E outside of normal operating hours.

Now I just have to find the publication that confirms that.  irked  To the FARs!!!

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:25 am

You really didn't expect FSDO to know did ya?  biggrin 

There are numerous spots with very similar Class D when the tower is open that revert to Class E when the tower is closed. Key is, the airspace must be designated Class E surface area in the AFD when the tower is closed and to get to that point the airspace would have been subject to a rule making exercise and show up in the Fed Register for comments etc.

If KLEB has in fact 2 way radio communication and weather reporting when the tower is closed, yet hasn't been designated as Class E when the tower is closed then it is Class G. Get the regional office to start an airspace action to rename it Class E if the comm and weather reporting exist when the tower is closed.

Quoting Nbgskygod (Thread starter):
according to the A/FD and our recent FAA inspection our airspace becomes class Golf.

What type of FAA inspection was done and conducted by what office?
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
Mir
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:50 am

Well, I was wrong. Should have read the original post more carefully. The airspace is Class G when the tower is closed, according to the A/FD.

So I'd assume that the airspace would be Class G, whether it's IFR or not. As to whether the extensions go away as well, that's a question I can't answer.  confused 

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
N231YE
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:14 am

To further solidify my guess (which other seem to suggest is true), this is what I was taught as a PPL student (I am a newcomer in Instrument Training, so I have stuff yet to learn). Generally, Class G airspace (uncontrolled) extends from the surface up to 1200ft agl. In class G airspace day, VFR pilots can fly with a visibility as low as 1 statute mile, and must remain clear of clouds. Now for class E airspace (as well as class D, as mentioned here), which is controlled and handling IFR as well, less than 10,000ft, the minimums are more restrictive: 3sm visibility, and 1000ft above, 500ft below, and 2000ft laterally from clouds.

Therefore, instrument approaches (that are not included in the primary airport's airspace) are often put in class E airspace mainly to keep VFR aircraft out, besides the air traffic control services provided in it. So if for IFR conditions, if approaches are being conducted, it would be my educated guess that the airport would still stay class E.

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 2):
N231YE, I'd also like to say most class Ds don't have approach but Mansfield, Youngstown, and Erie do which are just a few of those anamolies I was speaking of. (and I do realize it's airspace that you and I are really familiar with which is probably why you used that example I'm guessing)

You are correct: It is an airport I frequent. Ironically, MFD has radar service, but it's only a class D. Why it's not a class C or at least a TRSA I have no clue, neither does anybody that I know of (air traffic controllers, the DFE for my PPL, other pilots...)

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Now I just have to find the publication that confirms that.    To the FARs!!!

Here's a link to them, for future reference (without having to get the big, clunky, FAR/AIM book):

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...y/rgFAR.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet

Anyways, good thread, I am learning things here as well.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:15 am

I should also mention that radar services stop at Boston Center's MVA of 4,700', so everything from 4700 down to the surface is non-radar.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:52 pm

Quoting N231YE (Reply 6):
You are correct: It is an airport I frequent. Ironically, MFD has radar service, but it's only a class D. Why it's not a class C or at least a TRSA I have no clue, neither does anybody that I know of (air traffic controllers, the DFE for my PPL, other pilots...)

Class C's, I believe, are dependent on a specific number of operations. Now why it's not a TRSA I don't know. Other examples in the region of this approach control but not TRSA classificiation not previously mentioned are CKB and RDG.
 
Mir
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:23 pm

Another question: The LEB Class D extends from the surface (603ft MSL on my sectional chart) up to and including 3100ft MSL (so up to about 2500ft AGL, assuming for the sake of argument that the ground is flat throughout the airspace - though this certainly isn't the case). Class G normally extends only up to 1200ft AGL. So if the airspace is Class G, does that mean that all of it, up to 3100ft MSL is class G, or just up to 1200ft AGL, with Class E above?  scratchchin 

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:41 pm

I found a website that has the sectional chart on it.

http://skyvector.com/#25-15-2-4859-775

if you look up to the north of LEB you will see MPV also is a class E SFC area (although non-towered), I would think the same rule would apply when ATC services terminate at LEB.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:56 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
Another question: The LEB Class D extends from the surface (603ft MSL on my sectional chart) up to and including 3100ft MSL (so up to about 2500ft AGL, assuming for the sake of argument that the ground is flat throughout the airspace - though this certainly isn't the case). Class G normally extends only up to 1200ft AGL. So if the airspace is Class G, does that mean that all of it, up to 3100ft MSL is class G, or just up to 1200ft AGL, with Class E above?

Since the official word is that the airport is class G, the Class E shelf of 700AGL must extend over the airport, but the airport itself is class G, since it is under the airspace.
Pilots are idots, who at any given moment will attempt to kill themselves or others.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: Where Class G And E Airspace Collide

Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:46 pm

Of course when this topic is figured out how about diving into the not often found "operating control tower within Class G airspace" and that lovely item?
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.

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