RussianJet
Topic Author
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:28 pm

Just read this about a tyre burst incident at LBA in January.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/6992741.stm

Is it easy to make that mistake?

Has this happened before?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
pilotaydin
Posts: 2099
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:30 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:33 pm

hahah all levers and handles on the bus are small and similar  Wink compared to a boeing, so yeah technically you could do that, BUT, im not sure if you have to press the brakes in to set the brake on the bus. You do on the Boeing...

the article says it all, it's got nothing to do with the airplane...it says the pilot was distracted from a previous incident...case and point, flying is 100% psychology...
The only time there is too much fuel onboard, is when you're on fire!
 
helvknight
Posts: 784
Joined: Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:35 pm

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:37 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Has this happened before?

According to the story there have been 5 incidents worldwide on the A320 series.

Given the number of A320 flights that's not a lot.
I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member - Groucho Marx
 
bennett123
Posts: 7527
Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:51 pm

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19930914-2

My understanding from this crash was that there was a sensor on the undercarriage strut to detect whether the plane was on the ground, linked to the Thrust Reversers. Could it not activate a caption/horn if brakes locked with no ground pressure.

Equally, is there no visual indication of flap position. My assumption is that the flap levers would have to be accessible, (and visible) to both pilots.
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:54 pm

I'm confused, the article mentions "tyres"...what are those?  Wink

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
RussianJet
Topic Author
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:24 pm

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 4):
I'm confused, the article mentions "tyres"...what are those? Wink

DeltaGuy

I can sympathise, my friend. I suffer from a similar confusion whenever people start writing about 'airplanes'. What the hell are they?  Big grin
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5015
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:43 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
I suffer from a similar confusion whenever people start writing about 'airplanes'.

Why, to let people know what specific type of airCRAFT they are talking about, my dear Watson.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
EFHK
Posts: 372
Joined: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:52 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:39 am

Finnair had a similar incident with an EMB-170, I think two tires burst.
One of the best places in the world: McDonald's in T2 at FRA.
 
User avatar
SEPilot
Posts: 5021
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:17 am

The report on the LH crash cited says that the regular brakes have sensors to prevent them from being activated until the plane is firmly on the ground, but the parking brake must bypass all of them in order for the present incident to happen.

Quoting Helvknight (Reply 2):
According to the story there have been 5 incidents worldwide on the A320 series.

Given the number of A320 flights that's not a lot.

I would disagree; the cost of a complete set of tires is not insignificant, especially if the wheels are damaged as well, as they probably would be. Five incidents is definitely too many. It shouldn't be difficult to add a sensor into the parking brake circuit to prevent it from being applied unless the plane is at least on the ground.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 1):
all levers and handles on the bus are small and similar compared to a boeing, so yeah technically you could do that, BUT, I'm not sure if you have to press the brakes in to set the brake on the bus.

To apply the park brake on a 'Bus you twist the handle at the back of the pedestal. To lower the flaps you lift the flap lever located at the fwd RHS of the pedestal and pull it back. I fail to see how the two can be confused.

The Park Brake is the emergency brake which if set in the air will remain off until the ground spoilers have deployed
 
RussianJet
Topic Author
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:05 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 8):
I would disagree; the cost of a complete set of tires is not insignificant, especially if the wheels are damaged as well, as they probably would be. Five incidents is definitely too many.

I agree. Admittedly as a proportion of all flights it is low, but in the world of civil aviation five similar incidents such as those is definitely five too many. Which other aircraft have had this happen other than the E170 mentioned above?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
User avatar
Jetlagged
Posts: 2562
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 3:00 pm

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:15 am

There is touchdown protection on the parking brake, so the brakes aren't applied until touchdown. However it also bypasses the anti-skid system (as is usual), so when they are applied the effect is dramatic.

Boeings are different, in that you have to apply the toe brakes, then set the parking brake with a separate lever. The lever itself does not apply the brakes. Airbus is not alone in having a combined parking/emergency brake though, but the Airbus parking brake is ridiculously easy to set at any time. Clearly not idiot pilot proof.

I agree with VC10, there is no explicable reason for the confusion, the two controls look different, feel different and move differently.

Apparently:

Quote:
Investigators believe the pilot was distracted because he had experienced a bad landing at Leeds Bradford before.

Remind me not to fly BMI to such "scary" airports.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:29 am

I think the whole article is screwed up. The article states that the pilot ment to select full flaps but instead set the parking break. If this was so wouldn't it be obvious to the pilot that the flaps were not set? Think about it, you are landing a plane that you assume has full flaps deployed, what is going to happen? As you approach touch down speed you will notice that your sink rate is increasing due to improper flap selection. Doesn't make sense to me.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
David L
Posts: 8552
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:00 am

Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 11):
I agree with VC10

I'm jumping on that bandwagon. The parking brake is the small black handle right at the back of the pedestal. It's turned through 90o to operate:

Parking brake on...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Borut Smrdelj



Parking brake off...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Adam Wright



The flap lever is just to the right of the lower ECAM display, in about the same place as you'll find it in most other airliners.
 
calpilot
Posts: 881
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 1999 5:16 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:37 am

Quoting David L (Reply 13):
The flap lever is just to the right of the lower ECAM display, in about the same place as you'll find it in most other airliners.

Excuse me?
 
David L
Posts: 8552
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:02 am

Quoting CALPilot (Reply 14):
Excuse me?

Oh bollocks! I was reading another thread about the wheel on the gear handle and still had that lever in mind when I dug out the photos. Sorry about that.  wideeyed 

Um... anyway, as VC-10 says, the parking brake is further back and operated differently.  embarrassed 
 
onetogo
Posts: 286
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:40 pm

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:42 pm

Republic did in an E170. Hopefully Embraer released some sort of software upgrade to inhibit something like that from happening again.

pics: http://www.dauntless-soft.com/PRODUCTS/Freebies/USAirParkingBrake/
 
RussianJet
Topic Author
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:01 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 6):
Why, to let people know what specific type of airCRAFT they are talking about, my dear Watson.

Ah, you mean the difference between helicopters and AEROPLANES?  Smile
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
musapapaya
Posts: 991
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 10:02 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:49 pm

Quoting Onetogo (Reply 16):
Republic did in an E170. Hopefully Embraer released some sort of software upgrade to inhibit something like that from happening again.

Good job, thats a very short landing roll!
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
RussianJet
Topic Author
Posts: 5983
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: Select Parking Brake Instead Of Flaps?

Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:32 pm

Quoting Musapapaya (Reply 18):
Good job, thats a very short landing roll!

I wonder if that's what the company said to the flight crew?  Smile
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 16 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos