jafa39
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Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:52 am

Last night at WLG my flight to AKL was delayed from 19:30 to 21:20, while finally waiting at gate 21 to board I swear i saw what I think was ZK-JNB sitting at gate 23 (it had been there for ages so was thinking maybe it was waiting to do WLG-SYD). What shocked me was that when I went to look at her I noticed she had no "eyebrow" windows!

I know I was tired but I checked on ZK-JTR, the 734 that took me to AKL and there were the distinctive windows......was I so tired I was hallucinating? Anyone got ant info on this?

I have done a photo search but can't find an eyebrowless QF 733 at all......hmmmmm, beats me.
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
ajd1992
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:31 am

Some B737's don't have them, and now they aren't even delivered with them. It came from when pilots navigated by stars and stuff, but obviously now they're obsolete. It was just a weight saving thing (and apparently, they reduce noise in the cockpit too).
 
474218
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:53 am

I think you will find there is a service bulletin that can be accomplished on any 737 that plugs the eyebrow windows with aluminum.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting Jafa39 (Thread starter):
Last night at WLG my flight to AKL was delayed from 19:30 to 21:20, while finally waiting at gate 21 to board I swear i saw what I think was ZK-JNB sitting at gate 23 (it had been there for ages so was thinking maybe it was waiting to do WLG-SYD). What shocked me was that when I went to look at her I noticed she had no "eyebrow" windows!

The holes were still there, just plugged with metal blanks. There's a Service Bulletin to do this since it reduces maintenance, lowers weight, and nobody actually needs those windows today anyway.

Tom.
 
bok269
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:40 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 3):
The holes were still there, just plugged with metal blanks. There's a Service Bulletin to do this since it reduces maintenance, lowers weight, and nobody actually needs those windows today anyway.

Not to mention I think the glare annoys the pilots. Were they seriously for celestial navigation?
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
jafa39
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:40 am

Yup, I was aware of all the above info...but thanks anyway, always good to know there are people out there to help.

The question I want answered is this though:

Have any of the NZ-based QF 733's had the eyebrows plugged? because the a/c i saw is on the database countless times with its eyebrows intact....I really need to know if I was hallucinating.....and no, I hadn't had mushrooms for tea  Wink
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hotelmode
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:40 pm

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 4):
Were they seriously for celestial navigation?

No, they were for better visibility when turning finals on visual approaches. The celestial nav windows were in the roof but i would be surprised if any 737s had them as they werent designed for oceanic work.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:45 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 3):
There's a Service Bulletin to do this since it reduces maintenance, lowers weight, and nobody actually needs those windows today anyway.

Add Sound reduction too.
regds
MEL
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LTU932
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:21 am

As a sidenote, even 732s are getting their eyebrows plugged now.

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roseflyer
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:19 am

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 4):
Not to mention I think the glare annoys the pilots. Were they seriously for celestial navigation?



Quoting Hotelmode (Reply 6):
No, they were for better visibility when turning finals on visual approaches. The celestial nav windows were in the roof but i would be surprised if any 737s had them as they werent designed for oceanic work.

I spoke with the design engineer responsible for the removal of the eyebrow windows, and it was interesting to see why they were there. He said there were no documented reasons at Boeing for why they were ever installed on the 737. They were carryovers from the 727. However again there is no documentation for why they were included in that plane. So they went back and searched for the 707 and why they were included. The end result was that they were carryovers from the Boeing 377 Stratocruiser from the 1940s.

It took 60 years to get rid of them even though they no longer had a practical purpose. The final push for getting rid of them was that McDonnell Douglas got rid of similar windows on the MD-95/717.
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737tdi
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:05 pm

If I recall the original reason for eyebrow windows was in military applications, WWII bombers to be specific. The crew needed the view to see incoming bogies from above and forward. These eyebrow windows were usually quite a bit larger on these aircraft. Since a very large portion of commercial pilots were former bomber pilots I believe they just felt more comfortable having them there so they could still see above and forward. Before ATC/TCAS they would have been handy. Now this is all from memory so don't shoot me down in flames, just accumulated info. over the years.

737tdi
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Tue Sep 18, 2007 4:35 pm

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 9):
The end result was that they were carryovers from the Boeing 377 Stratocruiser from the 1940s.

Amazing that it took so many years to eliminate them.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
AJ
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:06 pm

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 5):

Yes, ZK-JNB has had them removed!
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Wed Sep 19, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 11):
Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 9):
The end result was that they were carryovers from the Boeing 377 Stratocruiser from the 1940s.

Amazing that it took so many years to eliminate them.

I recently did some work on 737CL and there was a hole in the keel beam that didn't appear to do anything. It was driving us nuts because, even though the aircraft we were working on didn't use it, we weren't sure that another aircraft wasn't using it (and therefore we couldn't use it for the modification). Turns out it was a holdover from the 727 fuselage and had no purpose at all on the 737.

Every change to a design takes time and manpower. If a thing isn't costing you much by being there, removing it may be more effort that it's worth. I'm surprised eyebrow windows fell in that bucket though...that's a relatively expensive part.

Tom.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Wed Sep 19, 2007 1:46 am

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 9):
I spoke with the design engineer responsible for the removal of the eyebrow windows, and it was interesting to see why they were there. He said there were no documented reasons at Boeing for why they were ever installed on the 737. They were carryovers from the 727. However again there is no documentation for why they were included in that plane. So they went back and searched for the 707 and why they were included. The end result was that they were carryovers from the Boeing 377 Stratocruiser from the 1940s.

It took 60 years to get rid of them even though they no longer had a practical purpose. The final push for getting rid of them was that McDonnell Douglas got rid of similar windows on the MD-95/717.

I love this story. It's a charming example of "But-we've-always-done-it-that-way!"

Quoting 737tdi (Reply 10):
If I recall the original reason for eyebrow windows was in military applications, WWII bombers to be specific.

Does this explain why it was on the B-377? Because it was derived from the B-29? Other than the bombadier's glass nose, they look like brother and (pregnant) sister.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 13):
I recently did some work on 737CL and there was a hole in the keel beam that didn't appear to do anything

Where Exactly on the Keel Beam.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 15):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 13):
I recently did some work on 737CL and there was a hole in the keel beam that didn't appear to do anything

Where Exactly on the Keel Beam.

Inboard side of the LH A/C pack bay, about 24" forward of the rear spar. I think it was about 2" in diameter. Dimensions might be a little off, since I was mostly going off digital photos.

Tom.
 
AJ
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Wed Sep 19, 2007 9:52 am

I found a photo of JNB that I snapped at Queenstown recently, post-mod.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:43 am

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 14):
Quoting 737tdi (Reply 10):
If I recall the original reason for eyebrow windows was in military applications, WWII bombers to be specific.

Does this explain why it was on the B-377? Because it was derived from the B-29? Other than the bombadier's glass nose, they look like brother and (pregnant) sister.

The Stratocruiser cockpit definitely had more than its share of windows, 19 panes worth, and not only eyebrow windows but knee-level windows. The B-29 was even more generous.


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The DC-8 and all DC-9 series models (except late production 717s) also had eyebrow windows, although only one per side. I guess they got the idea from the Boeing Dash-80 since earlier Douglas piston types lacked them.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Wed Sep 19, 2007 5:34 pm

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 16):
Inboard side of the LH A/C pack bay, about 24" forward of the rear spar.

Is it the one similiar to the Access port to the Isolation valve which is further Ahead.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 19):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 16):
Inboard side of the LH A/C pack bay, about 24" forward of the rear spar.

Is it the one similiar to the Access port to the Isolation valve which is further Ahead.

I honestly couldn't tell you without going out to look at an airplane. However, I suspect it's similar. Unfortunately, all that I usually get around here is 737NG's.

Tom.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 20):
However, I suspect it's similar. Unfortunately, all that I usually get around here is 737NG's.

Can it be access port to the APU duct check valve.

Yeah B732s are only flying out here as Freighters.Soon they will be gone too.Give them another 2-3 years out here.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Eyebrowless QF 733...was I Seeing Things?

Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 21):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 20):
However, I suspect it's similar. Unfortunately, all that I usually get around here is 737NG's.

Can it be access port to the APU duct check valve.

One of the guys who's been around for a really long time thinks it was originally for a water line on a 727, but that's pure speculation.

Tom.

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