KELPkid
Topic Author
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Thu Oct 04, 2007 4:52 am

Well, I think the title says it all Big grin

One of the more obscure provisions of maritime law (upon which many provisions of aviation law are based) is that a captain at sea, in international waters, can perform a marriage.

Obviously, I'd think it would have to be an international flight over international waters, but could an aircraft captain perform such duties?  Smile
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4296
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:43 pm

The answer depends on the country under which the airplane is registered.

For Germany, the answer is no. That is, because a ship captain isn't allowed to do so under German law either.

I think in other countries with more liberal rules on marriage, it might be possible. Generally, the legal status of an airplane captain and the captain of a ship is very similiar.
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Thu Oct 04, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
One of the more obscure provisions of maritime law (upon which many provisions of aviation law are based) is that a captain at sea, in international waters, can perform a marriage.

Isn't that a myth... in most cases, anyway? It's all very well performing a marriage in international waters but would it be recognised ashore in many countries? Obviously some Captains may hold the requisite qualifications over and above their Captaincy, of course.
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4296
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:02 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 2):
Isn't that a myth... in most cases, anyway? It's all very well performing a marriage in international waters but would it be recognised ashore in many countries? Obviously some Captains may hold the requisite qualifications over and above their Captaincy, of course.

This depends on the national law of the country under which flag the ship is sailing. Some countries might allow it, most don't.

What is true, however, is that a captain of airplanes and ships is the police officer on board, so his decisions are to be obeyed by the passengers, and the captain is allowed to arrest persons who don't obey the rules. Of course, his actions must be proportionate.
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:17 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
One of the more obscure provisions of maritime law (upon which many provisions of aviation law are based) is that a captain at sea, in international waters, can perform a marriage.

I think you'll find very little evidence of this, except in a few places (Japan, and couple must be Japanese?). The Captain can perform a marriage if he has the same requirements as anybody else requires in country whose flag the ship is flying, I believe ... i.e. Judge, JP, Notary, etc.. A Captian being a JP is probably an easy task and common occurrence though.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:14 pm

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 3):
a captain of airplanes and ships is the police officer on board, so his decisions are to be obeyed by the passengers, and the captain is allowed to arrest persons who don't obey the rules.

And can police officers conduct marriage ceremonies?  no   Smile

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 3):
This depends on the national law of the country under which flag the ship is sailing. Some countries might allow it, most don't.

Pretty much what I said. However, I don't think we're discussing the same thing. I understand that there might be a few Captains who can conduct weddings but I think it's a myth that there's any "international law" allowing sea Captains to do it.
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 5):
understand that there might be a few Captains who can conduct weddings

Correct! The same as there might be a few janitors and bus drivers who can conduct marriages also  Smile


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:43 am

No, but they can walk on water.....................
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13069
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 1):
For Germany, the answer is no.

Even if it's just ceremonial, like a church wedding?
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:33 am

You can apply to be an ordained minister online from the Universal Life Church in a matter of minutes.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
User avatar
BreninTW
Posts: 1532
Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:31 pm

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 8):
like a church wedding

In many countries, the church wedding is not simply ceremonial. My brother got married last month, and we all signed all the legal docs in the church ... it was part of the ceremony. The Minister was the person legally allowed to marry them.

In some countries (Israel being one that I know of), no legal provision is made for civil weddings (i.e., marriages performed in a court).
 
KELPkid
Topic Author
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 10):
In many countries, the church wedding is not simply ceremonial. My brother got married last month, and we all signed all the legal docs in the church ... it was part of the ceremony. The Minister was the person legally allowed to marry them.

 checkmark  That's how my wife and I's church wedding was...and we even signed our marriage license during the ceremony  Smile
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:06 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 11):
...and we even signed our marriage license during the ceremony

Right, but there was probably no requirement for the marriage to be legal except for the officiant being a minister, JP, judge etc., and one or more signatures and possibly a witness. In most states you can become a legal officiant by obtaining a temporary license, valid just for the wedding day. There is usually a 3 day waiting period after applying for the marriage license ... so in 3 days it's not too difficult for anyone to get married in the USA.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
SEPilot
Posts: 4916
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 3:51 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 12):
so in 3 days it's not too difficult for anyone to get married in the USA.

So as long as you have a 3-day flight I guess you can do it.....  biggrin   duck 
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 4:20 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 13):
So as long as you have a 3-day flight I guess you can do it.....

LOL ... yes!

You could always get the license before you fly of course  Wink

I guess the bottom line is that the same laws of marriage that apply to a country, also apply in that country's aircraft and ships. There are no different laws that I can find, or anyone else has quoted, that apply to captains of boats or aircaft in 'international' waters or airspace.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
SEPilot
Posts: 4916
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:38 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 14):

You could always get the license before you fly of course

Well, if you have that much foresight you can do it before you leave. I think the reason for allowing captains at sea to do it was that on a sea voyage there was plenty of time to cultivate romances, and since the mores of the day frowned on unmarried people engaging in connubial bliss, it was deemed necessary to insure that somebody on board could perform marriages. In aircraft, none of those constraints apply (not even the one about unmarried people, unfortunately.) So the question is really pretty academic. Besides, the TSA (at least as applied to US airlines) might take issue with the captain emerging from the cockpit to perform a wedding in flight. Not only is he now vulnerable, but his exit and entry from the cockpit could be anticipated. It could conceivably be staged to try and take over the aircraft.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 5:59 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
I think the reason for allowing captains at sea to do it was that on a sea voyage

But nobody can find any evidence that is anything but an urban myth .. in fact all evidence found by web searches is to the contrary.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13069
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:01 pm

Quoting Brenintw (Reply 10):
In many countries, the church wedding is not simply ceremonial.

It was in reference to Germany. AFAIK, a church wedding in Germany is merely something ceremonial, while to make the marriage legally valid, a civil wedding has to be made (correct me if I'm wrong though).
 
SEPilot
Posts: 4916
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:10 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 16):
But nobody can find any evidence that is anything but an urban myth .. in fact all evidence found by web searches is to the contrary.

Since the time when it was in use (if in fact it ever was) was well before the web, I'm not surprised. You probably would have to resort to looking in books, if anyone remembers what they are.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:18 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18):
Since the time when it was in use (if in fact it ever was) was well before the web, I'm not surprised. You probably would have to resort to looking in books, if anyone remembers what they are.

Aaah, so you can only find information on the web relating to those years after the web came into existence? You learn something every day  Wink

...back to those books .... whatever they might be. I hear they were around before even VCRs !!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
I think the reason for allowing captains at sea to do it was that on a sea voyage there was plenty of time to cultivate romances

Like Bond 007, I just don't think that was ever the case.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 15):
... it was deemed necessary to insure that somebody on board could perform marriages

That I can believe - somebody like a minister, a priest or a registrar who can conduct marriages ashore.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18):
Quoting Bond007 (Reply 16):
But nobody can find any evidence that is anything but an urban myth .. in fact all evidence found by web searches is to the contrary.

Since the time when it was in use (if in fact it ever was) was well before the web, I'm not surprised.

But laws are usually pretty well documented.

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 18):
You probably would have to resort to looking in books, if anyone remembers what they are.

I have such a backlog of books still to read. Once I've started one, I always enjoy it but it's the getting started that's the problem. I need an electricity outage.  Smile
 
TheSonntag
Posts: 4296
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:49 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 17):

It was in reference to Germany. AFAIK, a church wedding in Germany is merely something ceremonial, while to make the marriage legally valid, a civil wedding has to be made (correct me if I'm wrong though).

Nothing to correct there. However, if you marry for example in Denmark in a church according to Danish law, Germany accepts it. In Germany, the only legally binding way is a civil wedding.

Quoting David L (Reply 5):

Pretty much what I said. However, I don't think we're discussing the same thing. I understand that there might be a few Captains who can conduct weddings but I think it's a myth that there's any "international law" allowing sea Captains to do it.

Well, international law in fact does give the captain of a ship (and of airplanes) special rights, like for example the right to enforce laws on the ship. But according to international law, the law on a ship is the domestic law of the country where the ship is registered. So only if domestic law allows a captain to perform marriages, he is, in fact, allowed to do so.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:58 pm

If the Pilot is performing the Marriage ceremony.Make sure a talk on AIDS [Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome] is part of the ceremony  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
KELPkid
Topic Author
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
If the Pilot is performing the Marriage ceremony.Make sure a talk on AIDS [Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome] is part of the ceremony

 rotfl  Good one, MEL!
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
SEPilot
Posts: 4916
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:21 pm

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Sat Oct 06, 2007 9:14 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 20):
But laws are usually pretty well documented.

I suspect laws that have fallen into disuse might be difficult to find on the web, hence my previous comment.

Quoting David L (Reply 20):
I have such a backlog of books still to read. Once I've started one, I always enjoy it but it's the getting started that's the problem. I need an electricity outage.

Of course, if Edison hadn't invented the light bulb we'd be stuck watching TV by candlelight.......
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:06 am

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 24):
I suspect laws that have fallen into disuse might be difficult to find on the web, hence my previous comment.

I still find it hard to believe that there would be no reference to such a law on the web if it had really existed. Seriously, I think it's just an old wives tale.

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 21):
But according to international law, the law on a ship is the domestic law of the country where the ship is registered. So only if domestic law allows a captain to perform marriages, he is, in fact, allowed to do so.

Yes, OK, but you could say the same about a ship's Captain who is also a registered doctor. International law doesn't "allow sea Captains to prescribe drugs". A few probably can but it's because they're doctors, not because they're sea Captains. A few countries might give ship's Captains the authority to conduct marriages but that's not the same as international law giving the authority to anyone who is a ship's Captain. All international law does in this case is avoid taking any existing authority away.

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 23):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
If the Pilot is performing the Marriage ceremony.Make sure a talk on AIDS [Aviation Induced Divorce Syndrome] is part of the ceremony

Good one, MEL!

 checkmark   biggrin 
 
bond007
Posts: 4423
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 25):
I still find it hard to believe that there would be no reference to such a law on the web if it had really existed. Seriously, I think it's just an old wives tale.

Actually there are many references on the web... it's just that they say it IS an old wives tale.

Jimbo

[Edited 2007-10-07 07:53:36]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
ex52tech
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 2:28 pm

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:28 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Thread starter):
but could an aircraft captain perform such duties?

I have met some airline captains that would think that they could do that............while they were walking on water  sarcastic 

Now, go easy on me.............actually I have met many airline captains that weren't conceited...........they just thought that they were really great guys  razz 
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
David L
Posts: 8547
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Could An A/C Captain Perform A Marriage?

Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:57 pm

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 26):
Actually there are many references on the web... it's just that they say it IS an old wives tale.

Ah, fair point - though it would only take one legitimate reference to the existence of such a law to blow those other references apart. And yet we're still waiting.  Smile

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests