flight152
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Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:46 am

I came across this Saab Draken for sale and it listed an FAA approved maintenance program and US registration. Given this, I wonder how one attains a type rating in a single seat aircraft (with no sim's available). Since I would presume it would be very loud, are you restricted to operating this anywhere? Who could you ever find to maintain such an aircraft? Any other operational concerns to flying such a rare/unique aircraft?

http://wolfeaviation.com/aircraft_for_sale/1964SAABJ35.html
 
BWilliams
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:36 pm

http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinqu...=35350&cmndfind.x=18&cmndfind.y=13

Notice that the registration is listed as an experimental type.

Per FAR 61.31: "The rating limitations of this section do not apply to...The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the authority of an experimental or provisional aircraft type certificate"

So you don't need a type rating to fly this plane... just a few endorsements: complex aircraft, high-performance aircraft, and high-altitude pressurized aircraft.
Regards, Brad Williams
 
PGNCS
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:41 pm

Quoting BWilliams (Reply 1):
So you don't need a type rating to fly this plane... just a few endorsements: complex aircraft, high-performance aircraft, and high-altitude pressurized aircraft.

And a LOT of money!
 
2H4
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:28 pm

Quoting BWilliams (Reply 1):
So you don't need a type rating to fly this plane... just a few endorsements: complex aircraft, high-performance aircraft, and high-altitude pressurized aircraft.

Well, depending on the aircraft, you might also need a Letter of Authorization from the FAA. An LOA is required to act as PIC:
  • In piston-powered surplus military experimental aircraft with more than 800 horsepower and with a Vne in excess of 250 kts.
  • Any turbine-powered surplus military or turbojet-powered experimental aircraft for which the FAA has not established a type rating.
  • Both piston- and turbine-powered rotorcraft whose maximum gross weight exceeds 12,500 pounds.


To earn an LOA in a turbojet-powered aircraft, an instrument rating is required. The applicant is also required to have logged at least 500 hours in the aircraft category.

In the case of single-seat aircraft, training should be completed in a two-seat equivalent. If an equivalent two-seat aircraft is not available, the training must take place in the most complex aircraft that most nearly duplicates the characteristics of the specific aircraft for which the authorization is issued, or, a "comparable aircraft".

A "comparable aircraft" is defined by the FAA as an aircraft that duplicates the flight characteristics with enough similarity that flight training in one would qualify the pilot (with aircraft-specific ground training being the only further training required) to safely operate the actual aircraft.

It's all in form 8700.1 "CHG 32".

Depending on where the training is conducted, a typical instrument-rated Bonanza/Baron pilot will require 10-20 hours of flight training (and plenty of ground study) to earn the LOA for an airplane like an L-29, T-33, Mig-15, etc. Again, depending on where the training is conducted, the instructor may be authorized to sign off on your 8710 form in lieu of an FAA checkride.

2H4

[Edited 2007-10-14 10:30:38]
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Soku39
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:36 pm

Ohio University has an Aero L-29 Delfin that they fly occassionaly. It is registered as an expiramental, and while the pilot was not typed in it, he did have a LOA (Letter of authorization) to fly it. I'm not sure if the maintence schedule was anything more than an annual, but it was the same mechanic that works on their other vintage stuff, he said the manuals were all from NATO, translated from Czech to English. All the airspace around there is class E, but I'm assuming they could use class G through A as it had a transponder and radios. Not too sure about the whole DME above 10,000 thing, I'm sure they can get around that too.

[Edited 2007-10-14 10:38:33]
The Ohio Player
 
doug_or
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 4):
DME above 10,000 thing

isn't that FL240? even if its not, doesn't afffect VFR...
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Soku39
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 5):
isn't that FL240? even if its not, doesn't afffect VFR...

You're probably right, it's been a long time since the primary ground schools, and I haven't started the CFI gig yet. Just goes to show whats important I guess.
The Ohio Player
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 3):

In the case of single-seat aircraft, training should be completed in a two-seat equivalent. If an equivalent two-seat aircraft is not available, the training must take place in the most complex aircraft that most nearly duplicates the characteristics of the specific aircraft for which the authorization is issued, or, a "comparable aircraft".

A "comparable aircraft" is defined by the FAA as an aircraft that duplicates the flight characteristics with enough similarity that flight training in one would qualify the pilot (with aircraft-specific ground training being the only further training required) to safely operate the actual aircraft.

Hehe. So you'll also need a SK35C to train on first. Or a Mirage, Delta Dart or something. Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
KELPkid
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:51 pm

Quoting Soku39 (Reply 4):
Not too sure about the whole DME above 10,000 thing, I'm sure they can get around that too.

Why not just buy a used Bendix/King standalone digital DME and slap it in the panel?  idea  Or, even a KX-155 with an OBS head or an HSI...I've seen this done in lots of warbirds, BTW  Wink
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DashTrash
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:26 pm

Last I heard LOAs went out a few years ago and were replaced by type ratings for those type of aircraft.
 
ALexeu
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:40 pm

Flight152, i was wondering the same. If one gets PPL in Cessna 172, would he need different ''type rating'' to fly e.g. Piper Cup ?

Few years ago i saw ad, about Vickers Viscounts at sale, which made me wonder where the hell could you get type rating for it.
 
bond007
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:50 pm

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 10):
would he need different ''type rating'' to fly e.g. Piper Cup ?

It depends on whether this 'Cup' has turbojets, or is more than 12,500lbs .. or specifically requires a type rating.

Else one can fly your cup until it overflows!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
KELPkid
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:57 pm

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 10):
Flight152, i was wondering the same. If one gets PPL in Cessna 172, would he need different ''type rating'' to fly e.g. Piper Cup ?

Legally, no. However, in this real world in which we live, the insurance company will want you to complete a type checkout with a flight instructor (and sometimes require a minimum number of hours in type) before you would be allowed to fly it alone...also, if you earned your PPL in a Cessna 172, and then went on to fly a Piper Cub, you would be required to earn a tailwheel endorsement from a CFI qualified to give such instruction (here in the USA, of course...).
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TimePilot
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:04 am

What would you do with it if you bought it? Fly it on weekends? Fly it cross country? Does it have hard points?  bitelip 

Just curious ...
 
MD-90
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Wed Oct 17, 2007 4:23 am

Quoting TimePilot (Reply 13):
Fly it on weekends?

It seems that's what most ex-warbird owners do for proficiency. That and fly them to airshows.
 
ALexeu
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:24 pm

Slightly O/T.

If i get a ppl with C-172 would i need a type r. to fly e.g. Piper Tomahawk?

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 3):
Depending on where the training is conducted, a typical instrument-rated Bonanza/Baron pilot will require 10-20 hours of flight training (and plenty of ground study) to earn the LOA for an airplane like an L-29, T-33, Mig-15, etc. Again, depending on where the training is conducted, the instructor may be authorized to sign off on your 8710 form in lieu of an FAA checkride

There are few flight schools in USA and UK which offer type ratings for jet fighters. Or you can try in Thunder Bay, South Africa. It's a quiete jump from single engine prop to jet fighter...
 
2H4
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:02 pm

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 15):
If i get a ppl with C-172 would i need a type r. to fly e.g. Piper Tomahawk?

Nope. You'd already be certified for that category and class. Plus, neither of those require a type rating, as neither are over 12,500 lbs or turbojet-powered.

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 15):
It's a quiete jump from single engine prop to jet fighter...

For the most part, yes. Some are easier than others, though. A pilot who is reasonably proficient in light twins would have no problem transitioning to an L-39. That airplane is exceptionally docile for a military jet (granted, it's not really a jet fighter). Transitioning to a swept wing jet, however, is a huge jump, due to its speed and handling characteristics.

2H4

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corey07850
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:03 pm

Quoting AlexEU (Reply 15):

If i get a ppl with C-172 would i need a type r. to fly e.g. Piper Tomahawk?

No
 
sovietjet
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:04 pm

I have wondered this myself. I was daydreaming in class yesterday that if I had a LOT of money I would wanna buy myself a Mig-25. What kind of procedure would an aircraft like that need to go through to legally be flown here in the USA? I know as of now there are no private Mig-25s flying anywhere.

I'm guessing it would need transponder, TCAS and other legal equipment and also be registered as a experimental? How would you gain permission to fly it?
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 18):
I have wondered this myself. I was daydreaming in class yesterday that if I had a LOT of money I would wanna buy myself a Mig-25. What kind of procedure would an aircraft like that need to go through to legally be flown here in the USA? I know as of now there are no private Mig-25s flying anywhere.

I'm guessing it would need transponder, TCAS and other legal equipment and also be registered as a experimental? How would you gain permission to fly it?

Have fun finding and getting permission to store and use the special fuel.  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
KELPkid
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
Have fun finding and getting permission to store and use the special fuel.

You mean it couldn't burn standard Jet-A unmodified? I haven't met a jet yet (besides the SR-71) that couldn't burn Jet-A  Smile
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2H4
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
Have fun finding and getting permission to store and use the special fuel.

If he can come up with the money to own, operate, and presumably maintain the aircraft in airworthy condition, I'm sure he can find a fuel solution. I don't know....buy an island, or one of the Dakotas, or something, and build a refinery of your own....  Wink

2H4

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n710ps
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:29 am

Quoting TimePilot (Reply 13):
Does it have hard points?

Even if it does not, flying one would give me a few. Big grin


Actually a buddy of mine in Florida owns a pair of Mig 23's that were former Czech Air Force, they are not flying yet but they sure as heck function. He also owns a G-2 and a BE400. I need to dig around for the pictures of these things. They are at SRQ.
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2H4
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting N710PS (Reply 22):

That's a good friend to have. If I had a buddy with those kinds of toys, he'd get Christmas and birthday cards every year, without fail.  biggrin 

2H4

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hangarrat
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:50 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):

Have fun finding and getting permission to store and use the special fuel.

What's so special about the fuel for the MiG 25?

I could see problems if you wanted to fly a Me-163 in original condition. You'd need seperate bunkers for your C-Stoff and T-Stoff. Nasty.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:57 am

Quoting HangarRat (Reply 24):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):

Have fun finding and getting permission to store and use the special fuel.

What's so special about the fuel for the MiG 25?

I may have had a brainfart. IIRC the fuel is "normal". However the aircraft is cooled with alcohol, leading to "leaks" to satisfy maintenance at outlying stations. That's why I was thinking "special fuel". It was still early morning when I posted that.  Wink

Quoting HangarRat (Reply 24):
I could see problems if you wanted to fly a Me-163 in original condition. You'd need seperate bunkers for your C-Stoff and T-Stoff. Nasty.

Plus some pretty well paid guys to fuel the aircraft. I wouldn't want the job.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
Plus some pretty well paid guys to fuel the aircraft.

Just hook them up with some hi-test for their hotrods and dirt track cars, and they'll jump at the chance.  yes 

2H4

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sovietjet
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:05 pm

I believe the Mig-25 uses T-6 grade fuel(Russian deignation, don't know if that is the same as Jet-A). But yea, assuming someone has the money for the aircraft, fuel and all, what would need to be done to be able to legally fly it?

About the Mig-23, there is already a private Mig-23 flown in the US, I believe in Delaware. make sure to post the pics of your buddies Mig-23s  Smile
 
hangarrat
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:25 pm

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 27):
there is already a private Mig-23 flown in the US, I believe in Delaware.

I've seen a MiG-21 flying from ILG. It takes off over my father-in-law's country club. Nothing quite like that for mucking up your drive.

I've never seen a MiG-23 there.
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ALexeu
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:06 pm

I know that there few Mig-15s in USA, privatly owned.
 
2H4
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:24 pm

Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 27):
there is already a private Mig-23 flown in the US, I believe in Delaware

Yep, two actually.....N5106E (serial # 7827) and N51734 (serial # 7805). There are also two in Florida....N23UB (serial # 1038107) and N223ML (serial # 0390323303).

In addition, Flogger Town Usa Inc has several....N807MG (serial # 007), N831MG (serial # 831), N842MG (serial # 842), N844MG (serial # 844), N845MG (serial # 845), and N846MG (serial # 846).

There are also some Fulcrums out there. N29UB (serial # 50903014896) in WA, and N6394G (serial # 2960520155) and 6394K (serial # 2960507662).

2H4

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miamiair
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RE: Owning/Flying Vintage Jet Aircraft

Tue Oct 23, 2007 3:49 pm

I remember reading in Air & Space a while back that there was an N-registered F-16A and F-18A.
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