Boston92
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Aborting A Take-Off

Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:40 pm

Yesterday morning I was at DFW almost ready to takeoff 2 hours late listening to Channel 9 on UA and I was just looking at all the takeoffs in the heavy rain (which is pretty cool). Then I saw an AA plane cleared for takeoff, it started to storm (no pun) down the runway, got up to an estimated 100 knots+, when the captain advised the tower that he was aborting takeoff because of what he assumed to be a problem with one of the wheels. He asked the controller if he could see anything like smoke, and the controller said no. My questions are:

1. Does anyone know what the problem was with this flight (About 0915, 10/15/07)?
2. If there is a problem with the wheels, at what point does the captain decide to either abort take-off or proceed to rotate?
3. How often do aborted take-offs take place?
4. Has anyone ever gone through an aborted take-off

The aircraft had requested a tow to an unknown ramp, that was the last I heard until we switched to departure.

Also, DFW and DAL were experiencing Moderate turbulence that morning, but one thing struck me as odd...the controller advised a CO flight that a WN plane had lossed a 1000 feet and to be aware of the ride. Does this mean that they were in freefall for 1000 feet? I know of CAT, but severe CAT can only be like 50 feet.
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Pu752
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:15 am

To be honest aborted takeoffs don't happen that often, that for example a go-around, but this is the "basic" procedure:

Between 0-80kts for any inconvenience we abort takeoff, any alarm, problem with readings,etc.
Between 80kts and V1 only engine emerency.

Rgds.
 
Boston92
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting PU752 (Reply 1):
that for example a go-around

What for example is a go-around?
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
dispatcher
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
What for example is a go-around?

Go around is simply abandoning an approach to land for any reason (unstable approach, runway not clear, etc). This involves powering the aircraft back up and climbing back up and away from the airport to try it again.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:35 am

They don't happen often in the grand scheme of things. Less often than a go around. You guys make way too big a deal out of go arounds quite frankly. I've been on the line for two months and I've had to do it twice, both at ORD.

As mentioned, you never abort above V1. At that speed it's safer to take off and deal with it in the air. All transport category aircraft can climb with an engine out and our performance charts are done with single engine performance as the benchmark. Below V1 my carrier will abort for any red or yellow message on the EICAS. Above 80 kts, most of the warnings are inhibited by the aircraft. The only things we'll abort for then are engine anomalies or fires.
DMI
 
ly204
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:36 am

They are a little unsettling...I had an aborted take-off three times, all of which (thankfully) were safe:

1. 1995 -- CO MD80 (EWR-BOS) -- plane aborted 1/4 down runway at EWR when pilot realized plane was cleared to land on same runway (sharp, fast swerve to the left to abort)

2. 1997 -- US DC9 (Louisville-DCA) -- plane aborted take off 2x before finally taking off...pilot explained that he was getting warning lights...the third time he took off (a very unnervving experience as the pilot provided no further explanation as to what the problem might have been)

3. 1998 -- AC CRJ (Toronto-DCA) -- plane aborted take off due to "mechanical issue" (again no explanation given)...flight was transferred to a DC9
 
Boston92
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:12 am

Quoting Dispatcher (Reply 3):
Go around is simply abandoning an approach to land for any reason

Right, I know what a go-around is, I have a few in my life...I just don't know where the topic came from. My original post was specifically about an aborted take-off.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
You guys make way too big a deal out of go arounds

Who made a big deal about a go-around? The entire time, I was talking about aborted take-offs (much different than a go-around). I don't understand where my post led to four of you to think a go-around.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
Rcardinale
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:16 am

I have witnessed a few aborted take off's one was a few months ago at BOS an American Eagle ERJ aborted twice after spooling up the engines because he said he got a warning alarm and returned to the gate not a big deal
 
pilotpip
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 6):

Who made a big deal about a go-around? The entire time, I was talking about aborted take-offs (much different than a go-around). I don't understand where my post led to four of you to think a go-around.

I didn't imply that I was directing that at you. I was stating that way too many A.nutters make a huge deal out of a go-around. Not directed at you, but it was directed at the community at large. This is why I said "guys".
DMI
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:45 am

i think the connection of a go around was brought up by PU752 when he was trying to say something like 'aborted TOs do not happen very often unlike go-arounds which are fairly common. A mistake in wording led you and others to take the wrong way.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:52 am

I have only been on one passenger flight that had a refused take off. It was DTW-ORD on United. We had just started our takeoff roll, and were not above 40 knots when we suddenly slowed. We end up having our clearance cancelled. ORD was in flow control and went on ground stop as we were on our takeoff roll. The pilots were notified of this by the DTW tower while we were on our roll. We waited out the delay for another hour before taking off again, only to almost end up diverting to MKE for fuel because of the excessive ORD delays and the fact that the pilots had used so much fuel on the ground.

As a private pilot, I have never had a refused takeoff. But in a small plane, they are highly unlikely since takeoff rolls are so short.
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Boston92
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:59 am

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 9):

That makes sense.

In the event I was talking about, I am assuming they were VERY close to that 80 knot borderline, that plus DFW's 13400 foot long and 200 foot wide 36R were most likely taken into consideration.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
UncleBuck
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:55 am

Quoting LY204 (Reply 5):
1. 1995 -- CO MD80 (EWR-BOS) -- plane aborted 1/4 down runway at EWR when pilot realized plane was cleared to land on same runway (sharp, fast swerve to the left to abort)

i could be wrong but it seems planes are cleared to land on the same runway planes are taking off on rather frequently. it almost seems in this instance it would be more dangerous to abort the T/O than to proceed with the T/O, which would leave the runway clear, as planned, for the approaching a/c.
 
Boston92
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:11 am

Quoting UncleBuck (Reply 12):
i could be wrong but it seems planes are cleared to land on the same runway planes are taking off on rather frequently. it almost seems in this instance it would be more dangerous to abort the T/O than to proceed with the T/O, which would leave the runway clear, as planned, for the approaching a/c.

I am not sure, but maybe he didn't mean same runway and meant other side of the runway, in which case aborting the t/o would be the safe way.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
ly204
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:19 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 13):
I am not sure, but maybe he didn't mean same runway and meant other side of the runway, in which case aborting the t/o would be the safe way.

It was the same runway...planes take off and land in the same direction -- similar to EWR, LGA flights often follow this procedure as well...
 
Boston92
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting LY204 (Reply 14):
It was the same runway...planes take off and land in the same direction -- similar to EWR, LGA flights often follow this procedure as well...

Yeah, I know...but in that case, it does not really make sense as to as to why the takeoff was aborted.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
ly204
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:27 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 15):
Yeah, I know...but in that case, it does not really make sense as to as to why the takeoff was aborted.

The best way to think about it is as follows:

Continental MD80 flight take off path was from point A---->point B
Landing aircraft was landing on the same runway in the same direction (from point A-->point B)

In other words, had the plane not quickly veered off the runway, the landing aircraft could have landed directly on top of our plane as it was rolling down the runway on takeoff.
 
Boston92
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting LY204 (Reply 16):
The best way to think about it is as follows:

Continental MD80 flight take off path was from point A---->point B
Landing aircraft was landing on the same runway in the same direction (from point A-->point B)

In other words, had the plane not quickly veered off the runway, the landing aircraft could have landed directly on top of our plane as it was rolling down the runway on takeoff.

I get how planes land and takeoff, it just doesn't make sense why your flight aborted takeoff. You should have never been cleared to land in that situation, but even if you were, the correct thing would have been for the landing aircraft to go-around.
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airbuseric
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
4. Has anyone ever gone through an aborted take-off

I did, on a FR B732 out of DUB. Somthing to do with a security issue with one of the passengers on board.
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MarshalN
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:43 pm

I had an aborted take off once -- starting rolling and was probably more than 50kts when pilot breaked hard. Obviously people were a bit alarmed. He came on and said a warning light appeared about a door being open, checked, no problem, took off and that was that.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:08 pm

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 17):
I get how planes land and takeoff, it just doesn't make sense why your flight aborted takeoff. You should have never been cleared to land in that situation, but even if you were, the correct thing would have been for the landing aircraft to go-around.

I've seen instances of the post described that way before.

But what really happened is the landing aircraft was actually already on the ground and supposed to clear the runway when the takeoff aircraft was given clearance to begin their takeoff roll. For some reason the landing aircraft did not clear the runway - missed a high speed turnoff, etc.

So you end up with a takeoff aircraft which suddenly realizes that the just landed aircraft is not going to be clear of the runway - so a rejected takeoff and stop.

But you also have to take the date into consideration - 1995. The FAA was trying several techniques to increase runway capacity and traffic flow. Some of those practices proved to cut the safety margins too close and were abandoned. However, it was 12 years ago - so we will never know the specifics.

Finally, yes the proper procedure would be for the trailing aircraft - if it was in the air - to go around. But a pilot who perceives his aircraft is charging into a dangerous situation should abort rather than wait for a procedure or ATC call.

That's the captain's first duty - protect the safety of his ship, crew and passengers.
 
Boston92
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:40 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 20):

It is starting to make more sense to me now...thanks for the clarification.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:14 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
Also, DFW and DAL were experiencing Moderate turbulence that morning, but one thing struck me as odd...the controller advised a CO flight that a WN plane had lossed a 1000 feet and to be aware of the ride. Does this mean that they were in freefall for 1000 feet? I know of CAT, but severe CAT can only be like 50 feet.

1000 feet does seem like a lot, but if there were microbursts or wind shear on the approach, they can cause dramatic loss of speed and/or altitude.

I remember reading a transcript from DEN tower from sometime in the 80's or 90's I think, when the controllers were informing approaching aircraft to expect a 50-knot loss.
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barney captain
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:13 pm

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 22):
Also, DFW and DAL were experiencing Moderate turbulence that morning, but one thing struck me as odd...the controller advised a CO flight that a WN plane had lossed a 1000 feet and to be aware of the ride. Does this mean that they were in freefall for 1000 feet? I know of CAT, but severe CAT can only be like 50 feet.

I suspect the controller was advising of an airspeed loss at 1000'.
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VTBDflyer
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:37 am

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
4. Has anyone ever gone through an aborted take-off



Quoting MarshalN (Reply 19):
I had an aborted take off once -- starting rolling and was probably more than 50kts when pilot breaked hard. Obviously people were a bit alarmed. He came on and said a warning light appeared about a door being open, checked, no problem, took off and that was that.

I've been through one aborted takeoff just like yours. It was when NW still flew 747-400 into BKK, the old airport. According to the captain the L1 door was indicating that it was open. But we weren't allowed to takeoff again, we had to stay a few more days in BKK until we could find another flight.

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DashTrash
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RE: Aborting A Take-Off

Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:34 pm

I've RTO'd twice at my current company. One was a low speed reject due to the autofeather not arming, the other was within 10 kts of V1 due to a malfunctioning torque gage.

We can reject at any speed up to V1. Mandatory reject items include any warning light coming on, loss of engine power (obviously), autofeather not arming, and getting the takeoff warning horn.

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