CoolGuy
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Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:56 pm

For example, do they own small aircraft for training purposes, their former aircraft that might be in museums, corporate jets, etc.?
 
XXXX10
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:33 pm

I beleive that some do.

They sometimes use small airctraft for carrying crews and somtimes even spares between airports. FR had one in the 80s not sure if this is still the case.
 
vc10
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:34 pm

I do believe that BA still own all of their Concordes, which are now in museums

littlevc10
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 6:50 pm

Didn't FL keep a single 732 on the certificate so that it would be easier when the 73Gs came? I believe it was N464AT, and I feel like the wet-leased it to somebody... maybe someone can fill in some details.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
bok269
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 7:45 pm

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 3):
N464AT

That bird is now with Skyking-whether AirTran is still involved I don't know.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:21 pm

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 4):
That bird is now with Skyking-whether AirTran is still involved I don't know.

It is not on FL's certificate now.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:40 pm

Quoting VC10 (Reply 2):
do believe that BA still own all of their Concordes, which are now in museums

Even the one that the Muesum of Flight in SEA? IIRC,all planes at that museum are donated to the museum and MOF owns the planes.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:55 pm

I believe that SR Technics own a small historic aircraft, it was pointed out to us during the A.net tour of their facilities a few meets ago. One of our Swiss members will know for sure I expect.


Dan Smile
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atct
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:33 pm

Mohawk Airlines owned a Beech Travelair they used to run Parts back in the 60's.

Nowadays I believe its Singapore that has the Lear 45';s they use for training? (Please correct me if im wrong).

ATCT
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474218
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:44 pm

Some did:


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hangarrat
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Mon Nov 12, 2007 9:57 pm

What is AA's relationship to the Flagship Detroit Foundation, which owns this beaut?


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Spell check is a false dog
 
Viscount724
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 9):
Some did:

And another:


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SQ also used to operate several Learjets for pilot training purposes, but not sure if they still do this as the latest A.net photo of these aircraft is dated 2002.


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TWA had a single Fairchild C-82 Packet based at Paris in the 1950s. It was used to deliver spare engines and other major parts to rescue unserviceable TW aircraft throughout Europe and the Middle East.


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LH have several Piper Cheyennes used for pilot training, including one in 1950's retro livery.


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747Dreamlifter
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:08 am

ATCT is correct.....SQ still employs 4 Bombardier Learjet 45's at their SIA Pilot Training Center in Singapore. They received an recognition award from Bombardier last year March. I think the only commercial airlines that has a fleet of Lears specifically involved in airline operations for route orientation and ILS training.

http://airliners.net/search/photo.search?id=0429758


Saudi Arabian Airlines supports VIP and the Royal Family with 747/SP, MD-11, and 757 aircrafts all in official airlines colors. Their 757 is very unique in that it is outfitted as a flying hospital.

"So very nice to have lots of $$$ to splurge".
 
Ceph
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 2:22 am

SIA's subsidary Singapore Flying College owns the Learjets now along with Cessna 152, 172 and Beechcraft Baron B58. More information can be found on: http://www.sfcpl.com/. The planes are all registered in Australia.

List of aircraft on Singapore register: http://www.caas.gov.sg/caas/en/Aviat...d_Aircraft_Engine_No_October07.pdf
 
abnormal
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:17 am

Air Canada owns a sweet Lockheed 10A Electra (CF-TCC) used for charitable and PR causes

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0989112/M/
 
bond007
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:40 am

Didn't BA have a flying school with some PA28s? Or similar? all painted up ... maybe I'm dreaming.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
MQTmxguy
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:50 am

Didn't/doesn't mainline AA have a 762 just for MX field trips?
Well at least we can all take comfort in the fact that NW will never retire their DC-9s
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:30 am



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Quoting VC10 (Reply 2):
do believe that BA still own all of their Concordes, which are now in museums

Even the one that the Muesum of Flight in SEA?

That one is still BA as well, but it's some kind of perpetual loan to the Museum of Flight. There's a blurb about it in the entrance building to the air park.

Tom.
 
Boeing7E7
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:34 am



Quoting CoolGuy (Thread starter):
For example, do they own small aircraft for training purposes, their former aircraft that might be in museums, corporate jets, etc.?

DL used to have several biz jets for flying crtical parts around. This was years ago, so who knows if they do today. They used call sign "Dusty".
 
SFOMB67
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:20 am

Seems that UA had a DC8 years ago, that was known as the gray ghost. Think they bought it overseas, maybe in Japan, and they couldn't haul passengers with it, as the wing spar was cracked. Think it was used for pilot trng.
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
dalb777
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:48 am

DL restored Ship 41, their old DC-3. Where is this aircraft now?


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When they got rid of their 762s, they sold all but N102DA, The Spirit of Delta. It is now in a museum at ATL.


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tb727
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:49 am

We have a Super King Air 200 at my company to move crews, mechanics and parts around, as do some other similar companies. We use our fleet of Lears and Falcon 20's and even the 727's in support of each other and in support for our sister companies 747's. Nowadays as far as the Delta deal, they just charter when they have an AOG. In some cases, like for UPS for instance, you have to be an approved carrier per their pilot union contract to move crews around. I've done flights for most of the airlines around and they are almost always in the middle of the night. Nothing like that 2 am AOG call on a Friday night, it never fails.
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Viscount724
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:33 am



Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 19):
Seems that UA had a DC8 years ago, that was known as the gray ghost. Think they bought it overseas, maybe in Japan, and they couldn't haul passengers with it, as the wing spar was cracked. Think it was used for pilot trng.

As far as I know, the only UA DC-8 bought used from Japan was a DC-8-61 in 1977. It was JA8068 with JL and became N8177U with UA. It operated in UA passenger service and like the rest of UA's DC-8-61 fleet was converted to a DC-8-71 with CFM56 engines. UA retired it in 1991. It had a different cabin layout than the rest of UA's DC-8-61 fleet which has been mentioned in previous threads.

JL wasn't the original operator. It was delivered to Eastern in 1968 and, like all except a couple of EA's 17 DC-8-61s, was leased/sold to JAL after fairly brief EA service. This one was leased to JL from 1970 to 1975 when JL bought it.

Photos of that aircraft as a -61 and after conversion to -71:


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And in its original Eastern livery before going to JL:


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After UA it was converted to a freighter and operated for Emery Worldwide until they shut down a few years ago.
 
SFOMB67
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:46 am

[quote=Viscount724,reply=22]
As far as I know, the only UA DC-8 bought used from Japan was a DC-8-61 in 1977[/quote

Yes, I'm aware of the JAL DC8-61. It had different doors configs and galleys in different places. The one I'm refering to was painted gray, had the bottom of the wing tips painted red, and I don't think it had any seats. You wouldn't see it on the line as I think it was only used for pilot trng. I saw it when it went thru overhaul. It may not have been a ex-JAL.
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
Viscount724
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:15 am



Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 23):
Yes, I'm aware of the JAL DC8-61. It had different doors configs and galleys in different places. The one I'm refering to was painted gray, had the bottom of the wing tips painted red, and I don't think it had any seats. You wouldn't see it on the line as I think it was only used for pilot trng. I saw it when it went thru overhaul. It may not have been a ex-JAL.

That's interesting. There must be a photo of it somewhere.
 
474218
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:28 pm



Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 20):
DL restored Ship 41, their old DC-3. Where is this aircraft now?

It is in the Delta Museum at Hartsfield International Airport.
 
atct
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 3:47 pm



Quoting Boeing7E7 (Reply 18):
DL used to have several biz jets for flying crtical parts around. This was years ago, so who knows if they do today. They used call sign "Dusty".

Actually they now have a fleet of BizJets, but they operate as their own Part 135 charter. (Delta AirElite or something like that). Parts now are just sent via "AOG" (Aircraft-on-Ground) shipping on commercial flights.

ATCT
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SFOMB67
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:11 pm

After doing a little research, I've found the DC8 has turned out to be a-31. Originally delivered to Panagra in 9/67, N8275H was involved in a wheels up landing in Mexico in '62, but flew after that. It was obtained by Braniff as part of the merger. UA bought it in 9/76 from DACO, painted it white, and it was based in DEN for pilot trng. No info on a cracked spar, yet. But the bottom of the wing tips were painted red for some reason, so I'll continue the research.
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
bond007
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:41 pm

Fedex has some Lears, Challengers, and a Globex. Not all used for Freight.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
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vhqpa
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:37 pm

Qantas used to have 2 Hawker Siddeley HS-125's used as 707 trainers



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J
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GRZ-AIR
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 12:20 am

Yes..
Austrian (OS) uses C-152's for initial flight training..


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By the way, Lufthansa has ordered Citation CJ1 planes to replace the Cheyennes...




J.
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Viscount724
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:51 am



Quoting Sfomb67 (Reply 27):
After doing a little research, I've found the DC8 has turned out to be a-31. Originally delivered to Panagra in 9/67, N8275H was involved in a wheels up landing in Mexico in '62, but flew after that. It was obtained by Braniff as part of the merger. UA bought it in 9/76 from DACO, painted it white, and it was based in DEN for pilot trng. No info on a cracked spar, yet. But the bottom of the wing tips were painted red for some reason, so I'll continue the research.

Thanks. With your registration I found the same information. I think your delivery date to Panagra should read 9/60. 9/67 is when UA bought it (from Douglas). It was N8207U and ship #2107 at UA. UA sold it 9/76. There are 3 A.net photos of that aircraft, one at the end of it's Panagra service and two after UA disposed of it.


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It was converted to a freighter at some stage. Last operator is listed as Conner Air Lines where it was N578JC. Broken up at MIA 12/83 (one source says 12/93 but believe that's a typo).
 
SFOMB67
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:24 am

I'm surprised there is even a picture of it with the UA registration #, as it is unmarked. I thought it was a light gray, but probably with dirty white paint it became the gray ghost.
Not as easy as originally perceived
 
miamiair
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:51 am

Eastern Air Lines had a Lockheed Constellation in the 60's-earlly 70's(?) that was used to haul around spare engines and mechanics to do the engine changes.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
n710ps
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:57 pm

Off topic slightly as it is not owned by AirTran but there is an SR22 floating around south Florida owned by one of the big shots of the company that has AirTran labeling on the engine nacelle. I have been up close to it in Sarasota as it was parked on the ramp next to the LR25 I was flying at the time.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 2:21 pm



Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 20):
DL restored Ship 41, their old DC-3. Where is this aircraft now?



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When they got rid of their 762s, they sold all but N102DA, The Spirit of Delta. It is now in a museum at ATL.



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The Delta Heritage Museum which is on Delta Headquarters property in Atlanta technically doesn't belong to Delta. It is a not for profit organization that runs own its own certificates and funds. Delta obviously is theer biggest doner though. Ship 41 and 102 belongs to them. 102 being donated by Delta and the museum's founders/Delta getting rusty old 41 from San Jaun back in the mid 90's.

ASA if I am not mistaken still owns a few Brazilias that are sitting in the desert still waiting to be sold/parted.
What gets measured gets done.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Sat Nov 17, 2007 3:31 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
Even the one that the Muesum of Flight in SEA? IIRC,all planes at that museum are donated to the museum and MOF owns the planes.

I'm trying to remember since I haven't worked at the Museum of Flight in a few years, but I believe that the Concorde is on a 25 year lease to the Museum of Flight. I don't know the terms at all, but it is not owned by the museum. BA has the technical ability to retake the airplane if it is not adequately maintained. BA occasionally has done inspections to make sure it is in good condition.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
MHG
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:30 pm

Air Berlin owns a Raytheon 390 (taken over with the merger with DBA) for corporate and "misc." use like urgent crew transfers or transporting (limited size) spare parts for AOG due to going tech. ...

It is the last aircraft in AB´s fleet to wear the DBA livery !!! (probably there´s no need to change livery due to the solely internal use only and keeping ownership a bit "secret" to the general public ...

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/1272727/M/
I miss the sound of rolls royce darts and speys
 
NG1Fan
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:13 am

What about LH and 'Tante Ju' - JU52 with its corrugated sides still flies...

NG1Fan
 
jetstar
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:54 am


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Some trivia about the EA and TWA JetStars.

The EA JetStar was never used for pilot training, EA was thinking about starting a charter division utilizing line pilots flying JetStars, they only purchased one airplane to test the market. We parked next to the EA JetStar at PHL one time and I talked to the pilots and they told me of EA’s plans. I also think it was used as a company VIP airplane to fly to places the EA did not serve. The JetStar only lasted about 1 year at EA and the plan was soon dropped I think because of ALPA’s requirements the only EA ALPA line pilots fly the airplane.

The TWA JetStars were a different story, TWA was looking for a way to reduce their pilot training costs when in those days before full motion flight simulators, TWA pilots like all airline pilots would train in the actual airplanes like the B-707 and B-727. TWA approached Lockheed and asked if JetStars could be used for this instead of the larger airplanes.

TWA purchased 2 JetStars and Lockheed modified the cockpits with the actual instrument and overhead panels and switches from a 707 and 727. Because the cockpits were almost identical to their larger cousins and the flying characteristics were very close to the larger airplanes, the FAA allowed TWA to use these JetStars for pilot training. Both airplanes were set up that the cockpits could be converted back to the original JetStar configuration.

From what I heard when TWA finally did sell them the 707 version was returned back to the original setup but the 727 version stayed that way and whoever bought it flew it with the 727 cockpit.

Because the purposed large buy of JetStars from the Air Force never happened, Lockheed thought that there might be a market for 707 and 727 trainers with the world’s airlines and invested the money to convert the first 2 airplanes. About this time the basic full motion simulators were coming on the market and gaining FAA approval and there was no market for JetStar flight trainers and the TWA airplanes were the only ones produced.

I rthink their serial numbers were 5117 and 5119 because when I used to look up parts in the parts catalog, most times there was an exclusion that said "ex 5117 & 5119". .
 
Transpac787
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:32 am



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 39):
TWA purchased 2 JetStars and Lockheed modified the cockpits with the actual instrument and overhead panels and switches from a 707 and 727.

 redflag   redflag 

I think this is really far-fetched.

Just take a "727 conversion" for example. Everything on the 727 is based on three engines. Three electrical systems, three hydraulic systems, etc etc. How is it even possible to set up a cockpit like that in a Jetstar....a 4-engine plane?? What controls the 4th engine, when there will only be three throttles?? Also, where do you fit the SO panel?? I've once been in a Jetstar cockpit, and they are incredibly cramped. The SO panel has some of the most important systems on the plane......fuel control, electrics, pressurization, etc. There will not be any room for that, so where would all that stuff then be put in the converted Jetstar cockpit??

All of that would take away from ANY benefit of such a conversion, and is why I'd be inclined to venture a guess that no such conversion probably ever existed.
 
Transpac787
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Wed Nov 21, 2007 3:42 am

Adding to my last post, in response to reply 39:

Here are a couple pictures of cockpits from a Lockheed Jetstar, 727, and 707. Just compare the relative size difference. To attempt to put a 727 overhead panel in place of that Jetstar overhead panel would be near completely impossible. In addition to a complete nightmare in the retrofit, you'd almost have to take the entire 727 overhead panel and reduce it to less than 50% actual size just to fit everything!!!

Jetstar (left), 727 (right):

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Again, what benefit - at all - would there be to train pilots in a 4-engine plane, when they will be flying a 3-engine 727?? Training in a Jetstar for a 707 might make sense, but again just the dimensions alone of the cockpit would negate any realism or benefit gained in training in such a "converted cockpit". There would be no SO panel, the main panel would be a fraction of the actual size, and the overhead wouldn't even come close to the realistic size of the Boeing.


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jetstar
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Wed Nov 21, 2007 1:50 pm

The JetStar converted to the 727 cockpit kept all 4 engine throttles, but the center pedestal was set up as the same as the 727, as was the 707 version with the trim wheel and speed brake levers, also on both the 727 and the 707 JetStars there was no FE panel.

The cockpits were as close as possible within the space limitations of the JetStar cockpit, but not an exact duplicate of the larger airplanes. The JetStars were successful for TWA, but soon as flight simulators became more sophisticated and gained FAA approval, all flight training moved indoors and the JetStars were no longer needed.

The purpose of these conversions was to reduce costs for the initial basic flight training towards transitioning to the larger airplanes. The final training was done on the real models, but the basic air work and approaches was done on the JetStars. Since in those days pilots hired by TWA who had jet time were mostly ex military, anyone else had little or no jet time. There were no regional jets at the time so many pilots other than ex military had little jet experience, so basically the JetStars provided a low cost alternative to flying the larger airplanes for initial flight training.
 
Transpac787
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Wed Nov 21, 2007 10:20 pm



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 42):
on both the 727 and the 707 JetStars there was no FE panel.

This is my biggest point of skepticism. The SO panel, one could argue, has some of the most critical systems on board the plane, as I said in my first post. Obviously systems on a Jetstar will not even come close to as being as complicated and expansive as a 707 or 727, but if you intend to make the cockpit as close to a replica as possible, where are you going to put those system panels?? Moving them anywhere besides the SO panel would, of course, take away from the realism and benefit gained in flying those trainers.

Quoting Jetstar (Reply 42):
all flight training moved indoors and the JetStars were no longer needed.

I understand this point, I just think it's very hard to believe that a single company - TWA - would go to so much trouble to convert two Jetstars to look more similar to that of the 707 or 727.

Also....why would they do it for just those two planes?? TWA had CV880 and DC9 at the time too.

Although I'm really skeptical about your claim, I'm still interested to find out more about it.....do you know of any pictures of the converted cockpits, or of the planes themselves?? S/n 5117 and 5119 I believe you said??
 
jetstar
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RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:21 am



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 43):
This is my biggest point of skepticism. The SO panel, one could argue, has some of the most critical systems on board the plane, as I said in my first post. Obviously systems on a Jetstar will not even come close to as being as complicated and expansive as a 707 or 727, but if you intend to make the cockpit as close to a replica as possible, where are you going to put those system panels?? Moving them anywhere besides the SO panel would, of course, take away from the realism and benefit gained in flying those trainers.

You are missing the point entirely about the TWA trainers, again they were designed for a lower cost way to do initial pilot training to transition into the actual airplane, thereby freeing an airplane or 2 so they can be used for revenue service. There was no need to have a FE on board, they did their training indoors. When both the pilots and FE’s got close to finishing their training, then they would both go to the actual airplanes for their final training and check rides.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 43):
Also....why would they do it for just those two planes?? TWA had CV880 and DC9 at the time too.

As far as the CV 880, they were on their way out of the TWA fleet by the mid 1970’s and I do not know the reason why there was no DC-9 JetStar conversion, other than the fact that the DC-9 operating costs are much lower than the 707 and 727.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 43):
Although I'm really skeptical about your claim, I'm still interested to find out more about it.....do you know of any pictures of the converted cockpits, or of the planes themselves?? S/n 5117 and 5119 I believe you said??

I did see photos of the 707 and 727 cockpits in the JetStar customer news letter, but that was in the early 1970’s. I am sure these photos are somewhere deep in Lockheed’s archives somewhere probably never to be seen again unless they decide to get rid of them on Ebay.

While I do not exactly how the airlines handled FE training, in the Air Force FE training was done separately from pilot training, even done at a different base. FE training can be easily done on a procedures trainer, which would be a complete working mockup of the FE panel with all the switches and gauges working and different emergency procedures can be practiced on this procedures trainer. Since the FE only manages the aircraft systems, they do not fly or touch the flight controls in any way so there is no need to have a FE station on the Jetstar flight trainers.

Before full motion and visual flight simulators came into widespread use, most simulators were basically procedures trainers. For my initial G1 training in 1970, I used Flight Safety’s G1 procedures trainer, a complete mockup of the G1 cockpit for systems training, but the flight instruments did not work.

In 1971 Flight Safety put into service a JetStar flight simulator, it did not have any motion or visual capabilities, but the flight instruments worked and you could fly an instrument approach. We thought this was the greatest thing to happen and it allowed us to do a lot more training than in the actual airplane. When one of our G1 pilots moved over to the JetStar, I rode right seat in the simulator with him while he went through the training to get his type rating.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 43):
Obviously systems on a Jetstar will not even come close to as being as complicated and expansive as a 707 or 727,

To the contrary, the JetStar was a very complex airplane and some of the systems were almost as complex as the 707, the JetStar was certified under FAR Part 25 transport category aircraft and had to meet the same requirements as the 707, the JetStar airframe was certified for 30,000 hours, like the earliest 707’s. Most other light corporate jets at the time were certified under Part 23 or Part 24, which is less restrictive than Part 25. Being a 4 engine airplane, it had many of the same complex and back up systems including hydraulics, electrical and pressurization. I think the long range 707’s had a center fuel tank, which gave them 5 fuel tanks, while the JetStar had 6 fuel tanks. Fuel panel training alone was a 2 day course for the initial 2 week JetStar pilot training course at Flight Safety. Just to do a full fuel panel check was 15 lines long on the check list.

One major difference is that the 707 had to use turbo compressors for pressurization which was required at the time the 707 was certified while the JetStar which was certified later used bleed air.

The 707 had an air start system for the engines while the Jetstar had an electric start system, itself very complex because of the series-parallel battery start system. The JetStar to this day has been the most complex corporate jet ever built. The copilot on the JetStar was responsible for systems management and I can tell you from first hand experience, with over 600 hours in the JetStar it was a complex airplane. I also have a few dozen hours on the FE panel of a 4 engine USAF KC/C-97 and there were some similarities in the systems.

What helped me better understand the JetStar systems was being an A&P mechanic, I also was the Chief of Maintenance and had gone through the JetStar maintenance course at the factory in Marietta GA. In fact on some long flights I used to give the pilots quizzes about the aircraft systems to see how sharp they were.
 
PER744
Posts: 397
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2003 11:38 am

RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:15 pm

I believe China Southern has some bizjets at Jandakot for their training school
 
3201
Posts: 813
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:16 pm

RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:29 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 28):
Fedex has some Lears, Challengers, and a Globex. Not all used for Freight.


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7 hours aint long-haul
 
CosmicCruiser
Posts: 2049
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2005 3:01 am

RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 2:55 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 28):
Fedex has some Lears, Challengers, and a Globex. Not all used for Freight.

None are used for freight; they are the corp. flight dept. I haven't kept up with what's over there right now but they have added and removed diff. jets over the years. In fact I thought they had gotten rid of the Challengers but then I only occasionally see them come and go.
 
3201
Posts: 813
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 4:16 pm

RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:49 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 47):
In fact I thought they had gotten rid of the Challengers but then I only occasionally see them come and go.

Flightaware shows N2FE, N3FE, and N10FE all flying around this month, they're all Challengers.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
andz
Posts: 7628
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 7:49 pm

RE: Do Airlines Own Any Non-rev Aircraft?

Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:04 am

I'm not sure if SAA still own the 742 and SP that are parked at Rand Airport.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...

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