Boston92
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When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 2:56 am

While on approach into SBA (Santa Barbara, CA) in one of Skywest's (USA) Brasilias, there were sustained winds of 35 MPH, and gusts between 50 and 75 MPH. Now if you have ever flown into SBA, you know the approach is already hairy enough without severe winds:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0711/00378VG25.PDF

We were being tossed around pretty hard and the I could tell the pilots were not trying for a smooth landing, the just wanted to get down. Anyways, we were up pretty high, and most likely coming in a bit fast. I fly this route all the time, and know exactly when we usually touch down...well we flew past that...and the captain, then flared the a/c more than I ever remember before, but that did not work (hence why I thought we were coming in a bit fast). He then flared again hard, and we hit even harder, full stopping power, and then it was over. Now the normal touchdown area is about 1500 feet off the end of the DT, and we actually touched down a good 2000 feet past that. The runway is only 6052 feet long. Now on the 2nd flare, if we had not touched down, what would the chances be to go-around? Would any pilot ever risk overrunning? At these wind speeds, would a go-around be normal? What are the normal circumstances for a go-around with respect to not having enough runway?
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IAHFLYR
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:02 am



Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
there were sustained winds of 35 MPH, and gusts between 50 and 75 MPH.

Curious how you know that for a fact if you were in the aircraft and not on the flight deck?

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
and the captain, then flared the a/c more than I ever remember before, but that did not work (hence why I thought we were coming in a bit fast). He then flared again hard, and we hit even harder, full stopping power, and then it was over

Respectfully, hate to question but how do you know the Captain was flying the aircraft? Full stopping power, sounds very harsh, full stopping power, what is that?

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
Now the normal touchdown area is about 1500 feet off the end of the DT

The actual touchdown zone is defined as the first 3,000' of the landing runway....so what is the DT? Forgive me for being not informed.

It would be nice to not have such high drama on a landing which was successful! Questions yes, but drama of the exact winds, and who was flying the aircraft in this suspected faster than normal approach, then the full stopping power, oh my! Anyone else have the same thoughts?

 Confused
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Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:10 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):
Curious how you know that for a fact if you were in the aircraft and not on the flight deck?

It is really not too hard to know the wind speed. You don't need to be in the cockpit.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):
Respectfully, hate to question but how do you know the Captain was flying the aircraft? Full stopping power, sounds very harsh, full stopping power, what is that?

Fine...excuse my unproffesional lingo...but again...it is easy to find out if the captain was flying..., and by "full stopping power", I just mean that the pilots were not taking there time bringing the a/c to a stop.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):
so what is the DT?

Displaced Theshold is what I meant.

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):
The actual touchdown zone is defined as the first 3,000' of the landing runway

Really??? And if the runway is 3200 feet long???

Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):
It would be nice to not have such high drama on a landing which was successful! Questions yes, but drama of the exact winds, and who was flying the aircraft in this suspected faster than normal approach, then the full stopping power, oh my! Anyone else have the same thoughts?

It was not nearly as dramatic as you percieved it to be...a little out of the ordinary...sure, a little scary for a few of the pax...sure...it just put some questions in my mind...that is all...it really was a normal landing other than the fact that the captain (who was flying) had to flare twice.
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AAR90
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 7:48 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):
Anyone else have the same thoughts?

Yes, same exact thoughts. Just not worth the effort to write what you did... at least normally not worth the effort.  Wink

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
It was not nearly as dramatic as you percieved it to be...

Yet that is how dramatic you WROTE it to be. If you are not in pain from the seat belt, you have not experienced "full stopping power"... not even close to it.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
a little out of the ordinary...sure, a little scary for a few of the pax...sure...it just put some questions in my mind...that is all...it really was a normal landing other than the fact that the captain (who was flying) had to flare twice.

So IOW, we can eliminate EVERYTHING you wrote and just deal with the fact the Captain (did you actually ask the pilots who was flying?) had to flare twice as being the only unusual thing in the flight? Gee, not anywhere close to what you originally wrote.

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
the just wanted to get down.

Did you ask the pilots what they were thinking?

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
you know the approach is already hairy enough without severe winds:

I've flown MD80s into SBA many times... nothing "hairy" about that approach at all.

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
He then flared again hard, and we hit even harder,

Uh... did the plane touchdown on the first flare (you never specified)? And if so, how "hard" was that touchdown?

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
It is really not too hard to know the wind speed. You don't need to be in the cockpit.

If you are going to state specific speeds, then YES, you need to have been in the cockpit to SEE the instruments to know what the pilots were actually dealing with.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
it is easy to find out if the captain was flying

Only one way... to ask the pilots.
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wilco737
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 8:15 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 1):



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 3):

Nicely spoken guys! And I totally agree! And imagine 75MPH wind: then the brasilia doesnt need ANY runway to take off, the wind is sufficient already Big grin

Maybe he thought that the captain was flying because it was so windy, but thats wrong! I did such approaches as well and I am "only" the First Officer and we are still all alive  Wink

The wind speed, well maybe he heard it from the news what it was... But what is was exactly during the approach you need to be IN the cockpit (flight deck)...

The Thoughts of the pilots?! Well, I always think during such wind: damnit, I should've stayed at home on my couch Big grin HAHA!

Well, its our job to bring down those aircrafts with passengers (or freight) as safely as possible! and if it is not possible: GO AROUND and head to your alternate airport!

And to answer your question: we pilots SHOULD not risk to overrun the runway! you can always go around until the thrust reverser are in action! Well, that counts for jet engines! Once the thrust reverser is activated you have to stop! if not: just hit the throttles and up we go again...

Ok, thats all I can say now...

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IAHFLYR
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:01 pm



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
It is really not too hard to know the wind speed. You don't need to be in the cockpit.

What did you do, lick your finger and stick it out the window?  box   biggrin 

Seriously, there is no possible way for you as a passenger to know what the wind was upon landing....only a guess.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 3):
Just not worth the effort to write what you did... at least normally not worth the effort

I was in a writing mood, doesn't happen often but couldn't resist myself!!  Smile

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
And if the runway is 3200 feet long???

Then the runway is 3,200' long.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 4):
Nicely spoken guys! And I totally agree!

Thank you Sir.
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wilco737
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:10 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 5):
Thank you Sir.

Don't call me SIR; I have to work for my money Big grin Big grin

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IAHFLYR
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:27 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 6):
Don't call me SIR

Okie dokie..........then simply, thanx!  mischievous 
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Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:28 pm



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 3):
Uh... did the plane touchdown on the first flare

No

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 3):
Yet that is how dramatic you WROTE it to be.



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 3):
If you are not in pain from the seat belt, you have not experienced "full stopping power"... not even close to it.



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 3):
So IOW, we can eliminate EVERYTHING you wrote and just deal with the fact the Captain (did you actually ask the pilots who was flying?) had to flare twice as being the only unusual thing in the flight? Gee, not anywhere close to what you originally wrote.



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 3):
nothing "hairy" about that approach at all.

Does it really matter? I spoke with the captain and first officer and f/a after the flight as I was the last one off. The only thing he did not mention was the wind speeds. No one has actually answered my questions yet, just questioned everything I wrote... There was a severe wind warning for the city and coast that entire night with the winds I mentioned earlier. There was a SIGMET for most of the southern CA coast...but none of that really matters...just answer the questions mentioned at the end of the post.
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wilco737
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:33 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 4):
And to answer your question: we pilots SHOULD not risk to overrun the runway! you can always go around until the thrust reverser are in action! Well, that counts for jet engines! Once the thrust reverser is activated you have to stop! if not: just hit the throttles and up we go again...

There you go, one part I already answered  Wink

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Goldenshield
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 3:40 pm

When the runway stops looking like a suitable length to stop, then going around would be called for.

The Brasilia doesn't need very much room to stop once it's on the ground. Case in point: at LAX, we touched down on the aiming points on 25R, and were off the runway at Golf, roughly 1200 feet away.
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bond007
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:20 pm



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 8):
Does it really matter? I spoke with the captain and first officer and f/a after the flight as I was the last one off. The only thing he did not mention was the wind speeds.

What did the pilot say?

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 8):
none of that really matters...just answer the questions mentioned at the end of the post.

Well, one of your questions was regarding wind speed. It just seems unlikely anyone is going to be landing at 75mph (hurricane force) gusts ... let alone a Brasilia. The airport would probably be closed and abandoned.

Jimbo
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wilco737
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:27 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 4):
And imagine 75MPH wind: then the brasilia doesnt need ANY runway to take off, the wind is sufficient already Big grin



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 11):
It just seems unlikely anyone is going to be landing at 75mph (hurricane force) gusts ... let alone a Brasilia. The airport would probably be closed and abandoned.

Yeah, 75MPH?! Would be better to stay home with that wind...

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AAR90
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:52 pm



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 8):
Quoting AAR90 (Reply 3):
Uh... did the plane touchdown on the first flare

No

Then why did you write:

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
and we hit even harder,

How is it possible to hit "harder" if you never "hit" in the first place?

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 8):
Does it really matter?

Yes. You create the illusion of a signficicantly scary event, then when questioned about it you claim:

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
It was not nearly as dramatic as you percieved it to be...a little out of the ordinary...sure, a little scary for a few of the pax...sure...it just put some questions in my mind...that is all...it really was a normal landing other than the fact that the captain (who was flying) had to flare twice.

So what is the TRUTH? Was it a scary approach or not? Was it dangerous (as you originally made it out to be) or not? And the "hairy enough" approach you reference is an extremely simple 1800 foot descent over 6 MILES (196 feet/mile or approx. 393 feet/minute at 120 knot approach speed) STRAIGHT AHEAD (no turning) over open water and gets no lower than 910 feet above the runway. If you define that (a less than normal 3-degree glidepath over open space) as "hairy enough" please do not attempt to describe approaches to SNA, SAN, IAD and virtually EVERY other airport in the country.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 8):
There was a severe wind warning for the city and coast that entire night with the winds I mentioned earlier.

So now you know why those who actually must USE the FORECAST weather affectionately call those who TRY to forecast the weather... "weather guessers." For all we know (those of us who were not in the cockpit of your flight) the ACTUAL weather encountered could have been clear skies and calm winds. FORECAST wind is just that... a FORECAST.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 8):
just answer the questions mentioned at the end of the post.

The answers are so obvious one would think the application of common sense would suffice. But what the heck...I'm bored too.  Wink

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
what would the chances be to go-around?

Better than the first (non) touchdown.

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
Would any pilot ever risk overrunning?

Not intentionally. Do you think pilots WANT to lose their license (or worse)?

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
At these wind speeds, would a go-around be normal?

No. IF the ACTUAL wind reported at the airport was what was FORECAST, then AA policy REQUIRES the pilot to not attempt the approach to begin with. Hint: strong suspicion SkyWest policy is the same so you probably didn't experience anything close to the wind you think you did.

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
What are the normal circumstances for a go-around with respect to not having enough runway?

Whenever the pilots think they can not make a safe landing, a go-around should be performed.
In its most basic form, driving an airplane is very much like driving a car. You look, evaluate and make decisions. The only difference being that everything in an airplane happens in three dimensions, happens a whole lot quicker, and the consequenses of a poor decision are a whole lot worse.
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wilco737
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 4:56 pm



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 13):
driving an airplane is very much like driving a car. You look, evaluate and make decisions. The only difference being that everything in an airplane happens in three dimensions, happens a whole lot quicker, and the consequenses of a poor decision are a whole lot worse.

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BoeingOnFinal
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 6:35 pm



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 13):
driving an airplane is very much like driving a car.

Indeed, but when you eventually stop DRIVING the aircraft, and start flying it, it will be quite different.  Smile

Sorry, you were busting his chops so much that I had to get you back somehow, and this is the only way I knew how.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 2):
Really??? And if the runway is 3200 feet long???

Touch down zone is the first 3000 feet from the threshold or half the runway, whichever is less (at least that is the lighting requirements of Cat II and III runways).
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AAR90
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:20 pm



Quoting BoeingOnFinal (Reply 15):
Indeed, but when you eventually stop DRIVING the aircraft, and start flying it, it will be quite different.

Touche.  duck 
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pilotpip
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 9:52 pm

Another interesting thing, if the winds were really 75mph as you state, was it a crosswind or a headwind? Wind socks are standing straight out at about 15-20kts so I'm trying to figure out what would tell you this wind speed.

I'm interested as I know no aircraft with a max demonstrated crosswind component of more than about 35kts. And in most cases, unlike in part 91 it is a part 121 limitation because it's listed in that carrier's ops spec.
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Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:36 pm



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 13):
So what is the TRUTH? Was it a scary approach or not? Was it dangerous (as you originally made it out to be) or not? And the "hairy enough" approach you reference is an extremely simple 1800 foot descent over 6 MILES (196 feet/mile or approx. 393 feet/minute at 120 knot approach speed) STRAIGHT AHEAD (no turning) over open water and gets no lower than 910 feet above the runway. If you define that (a less than normal 3-degree glidepath over open space) as "hairy enough" please do not attempt to describe approaches to SNA, SAN, IAD and virtually EVERY other airport in the country.

I don't believe the approach to 25 is "straight ahead". Did you even look at the approach? And no, it was not scary. When I spoke with the crew, it was just a friendly conversation more about how our days went than that specific approach.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 13):
FORECAST wind is just that... a FORECAST.

Not when it already has happened.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 17):
Another interesting thing, if the winds were really 75mph

I never said the winds were 75 MPH, I said the winds were sustained at 30-35 MPH, with with a "few gusts reaching hurricane force" throughout the day... That figure came from the county so most likely was not around the airport...but the 30-35 MPH winds were at the airport within 20 minutes of when I was there.

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 13):
No. IF the ACTUAL wind reported at the airport was what was FORECAST, then AA policy REQUIRES the pilot to not attempt the approach to begin with

You guys are getting too stuck on the 75 MPH number which was the max gust in the county. The winds were 35 MPH. Now to answer my question, would it be normal to go around at these (35) wind speeds.

You guys are also getting way to stuck what actually happened on my flight. Fine, I do not know if the winds were 31 or 32 MPH, maybe they were 29 or 33. Now fine, what I wrote in the start may sound a bit dramatic, but it really wasn't...just get over it. The winds were 30-35 MPH, made for an approach that was a bit harder than normal, and thats it.

All I want to know is how often wind is sole reason for a missed approach.
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sevenheavy
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:39 pm



Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
The runway is only 6052 feet long. Now on the 2nd flare, if we had not touched down, what would the chances be to go-around?

There would still be adequate time to initiate a go-around. A prop will spool up very quickly, particularly under these conditions. I am going to humour you and accept your wind speed "estimates", was the wind down the runway? If your description is accurate I suspect not. However if they were "down the runway this would make a safe climb away even easier

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
Would any pilot ever risk overrunning?

Not really worth a response but No. Can't believe you would seriously ask that.

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
At these wind speeds, would a go-around be normal?

Again, what was the wind direction? Sustained winds of 30mph (kts??) down the runway are actually helpful. A 30mph/kt direct crosswind would be over the limit for this aircraft ( can't say I know exactly what it is for this type however)

I think its safe to say that 75 "mph" would probably close the airport, gusting or otherwise.

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
What are the normal circumstances for a go-around with respect to not having enough runway?

If they were normal circumstances you wouldn't need a go-around  Wink. It Depends on the aircraft type, weight, runway length. etc.etc. This situation was really no big deal. There was more than enough runway for this type of aircraft. What you don't say is how much runway was left when you taxied off but i am sure that there was never any danger that you were anywhere close to not being able to stop in time. The flight deck crew get paid to make those judgement calls based on their experience and they (almost Wink) never get it wrong.

I hope this answers your questions. If you hadn't got the hint already you might want to stick to the facts a little more. I have humoured you and responded based on the parameters you gave but you will get better answers from far more qualified guys than me if you lose some of the drama in future and only post what you know to be correct- just some friendly advice.

Regards
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futureualpilot
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:45 pm



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):
Now to answer my question, would it be normal to go around at these (35) wind speeds.

Not necessarily. A go around isn't based on wind speed, but if the approach somehow was botched/became unsafe, you would probably see a go around. Hell, I was up in a 172RG today in 25mph winds, and didn't have to go around. It was sporty, but do-able. In gusty conditions, you may be more likely to experience/see a go around because it would be easier for an approach to go to hell, particularly when you are lower to the ground and there is less and less tolerance for error and room to recover.
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Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:48 pm

From here on, lets just say I was lying about the 75 MPH winds (For all intent and purpose). The winds were 30-35 MPH. Also here is an actual Brasilia on apprach for SBA showing that it is not "straight in".

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sn9FgpHWxnc

(Embedding was disabled)
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Tornado82
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:49 pm

With a date/time of this flight we could pull the archived METAR's to at least get a closer estimate of the winds. If the weather was as severe as you claim, there would be a higher likelihood of "SPECI" obs in between the normal hourly obs to narrow it down even better. Somehow I doubt the winds were anywhere near 75, but I've landed a Cherokee 140 in 28G38kt so your 35kt sustained isn't THAT big of a deal.
 
Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:52 pm



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 22):
Somehow I doubt the winds were anywhere near 75

So do I. When I originally posted the 75 number, it was not meant to be a basis of the winds at the aiport. The airport winds were 30-35 MPH as I said originally...forget the 75 number.
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Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 10:57 pm



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 22):

NOV11 2030 LOCAL

There was a SIGMET for this time, that's all I can find.
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Tornado82
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:22 pm

Myth busted...

2030 local on Nov 11th would be 0430zulu on the 12th.

KSBA 120353Z 05006KT 10SM CLR 18/06 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP127 T01780061=
KSBA 120453Z 00000KT 10SM CLR 16/09 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP134 T01560094=

Unless some MASSIVE gusts blew up between the two hourly reports, your winds were basically nothing.

Furthermore throughout the past 72 hours there wasn't one report of a > 20kt gust.
 
Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Wed Nov 14, 2007 11:57 pm



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 25):
Myth busted...

There was a wind advisory issued (a.k.a winds greater than 35 MPH).
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AAR90
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:02 am



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):
I don't believe the approach to 25 is "straight ahead". Did you even look at the approach? And no, it was not scary. When I spoke with the crew, it was just a friendly conversation more about how our days went than that specific approach.

Yes I looked at the approach. In fact, I've flown it many times. It IS a straight ahead APPROACH with a visual turn for landing. VERY SIMPLE. MUCH EASIER than most airports, espcially those with terrain nearby.

Quoting Boston92 (Thread starter):
there were sustained winds of 35 MPH, and gusts between 50 and 75 MPH.

WHERE? over the water on the approach? At the airport?

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):
Not when it already has happened.

If you were not in the cockpit or listening on Channel-9 (oh, not installed on that plane), then you have NO IDEA what the wind ACTUALLY was that you encountered.... NONE.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):
That figure came from the county so most likely was not around the airport...but the 30-35 MPH winds were at the airport within 20 minutes of when I was there.

So now you finally admit your wind information is from..... well, somewhere OTHER than the place your plane was flying.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):
Now to answer my question, would it be normal to go around at these (35) wind speeds.

Already answered... NO.

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):
All I want to know is how often wind is sole reason for a missed approach.

Had you just asked the question, you'd have received a quick reply. In my 30+ years of flying.... NEVER. I've seen plenty of reports of diversions due to wind gusts more than 50 knots (AA's absolute limit) and a couple of years ago a lot of LAX diversions due to the 36 knot crosswind (we had easy approach/landing while others didn't even try as that is AT the 737 AFM limit), but have never encountered the situation myself.
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Tornado82
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 26):

There was a wind advisory issued (a.k.a winds greater than 35 MPH).

I'm well aware of the criteria for wind advisories. I also know how to decode METAR's.

That's quite the interesting terrain out that way... as someone who grew up in the mountains (Allegheny Range - highest peaks at 3000 feet while the lowlands were at 800-1200) I can tell you that the winds at one part of a county are SIGNIFICANTLY different than the winds in another part. We didn't have an ocean nearby further complicating the issues. Considering a rather thick fog came in a few hours after your flight landed, I'm doubting there was any noteworthy wind anywhere in the immediate SBA airport area... but sure there could have been 35kt gusts somewhere else in the county.

[Edited 2007-11-14 16:03:33]
 
Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:35 am



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 28):
but sure there could have been 35kt gusts somewhere else in the county.

Like on the approach...
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Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:42 am



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 28):

Also, there were winds of 60 MPH (CONFIRMED) on NOV 11 between 6:00pm and 9:00pm over the Montecito Hills which is on the approach.

From the National Weather Service:

LOS ANGELES COUNTY PEAK WIND
MALIBU CANYON..........................SOUTH 24 MPH.
MALIBU HILLS...........................NORTH 30 MPH.
DEL VALLE..............................NORTHEAST 22 MPH.
CAMP NINE..............................NORTH 41 MPH.
CHILAO.................................NORTHEAST 36 MPH.
CLEAR CREEK............................NORTHWEST 28 MPH.
MILL CREEK.............................NORTH 24 MPH.
SANDBERG...............................NORTH 28 MPH.
WARM SPRINGS...........................NORTH 32 MPH.
WHITAKER PEAK..........................NORTHWEST 69 MPH.
POPPY PARK.............................WEST 34 MPH.

VENTURA COUNTY PEAK WIND
WILEY RIDGE............................EAST 24 MPH.

SANTA BARBARA COUNTY PEAK WIND
LAS FLORES CANYON......................NORTH 31 MPH.
MONTECITO HILLS........................NORTHEAST 60 MPH.
VANDENBERG.............................NORTH 21 MPH.
FIGUEROA MOUNTAIN......................WEST 38 MPH.

SAN LUIS OBISPO COUNTY PEAK WIND
BRANCH MOUNTAIN........................NORTH 44 MPH.

$$







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
Tornado82
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 12:45 am

Winds somewhere out on the approach wouldn't have caused your "double flare" incident. If anything a wind that strong on your approach probably would have led to being a little low and slow once you dropped out of that wind (assuming it had any headwind component whatsoever) and came towards the calm winds in the threshold environment.
 
AAR90
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:33 am



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 31):
Winds somewhere out on the approach wouldn't have caused your "double flare" incident.

Relax. Someone is trying to find justification for the original bad information. The approach is OVER WATER. "...Montecito Hills which is on the approach" can not possible be true unless it magically moved to a point in the Pacific Ocean during his approach, then moved back over land after his approach.  dopey 
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onetogo
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 5:36 pm



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 18):

All I want to know is how often wind is sole reason for a missed approach.

I thought you had been asking about go-arounds up until this point. You do realize that a missed approach and a go-around are two entirely different things, right?
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 6:37 pm



Quoting Onetogo (Reply 33):
You do realize that a missed approach and a go-around are two entirely different things, right?

Really? Care to elaborate?
 
Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 32):
Relax. Someone is trying to find justification for the original bad information. The approach is OVER WATER. "...Montecito Hills which is on the approach" can not possible be true unless it magically moved to a point in the Pacific Ocean during his approach, then moved back over land after his approach.

Regardless, there were wind advisories and warnings from San Diego to Palm Springs to Point Conception all over the weekend, not to mention a SIGMET for the exact same area. I really don't get what you are doing. I fly into SBA at least once every two weeks and the winds are usually 4-9 MPH. Believe me, I know when they are more. The winds were at least 30 MPH.

[Edited 2007-11-15 11:23:45]
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:28 pm



Quoting Onetogo (Reply 33):
You do realize that a missed approach and a go-around are two entirely different things, right?

Both are similar...but I guess since it was not full IFR and 25 does not have an ILS, you can't really perform a missed approach...but I am sure you (and everyone else) knew what I meant...and if not...I am sorry for not being technical enough.
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:36 pm

I really hate to pick, but what the heck is this supposed to mean

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 36):
it was not full IFR

 Confused

The weather is either IMC or VMC at the airport.....unless by "full IFR" you really wanted to imply at the approach minimums!!
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futureualpilot
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:41 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 34):
Really? Care to elaborate?

A missed approach is when an instrument approach cannot be completed for any reason. A go around is a rejected/balked landing, either VFR or IFR. Same idea, different phases of flight.
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Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 7:49 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 37):

Once again, I am sorry for not being techical enough. The weather of said flight was clear. The ILS 7 was not needed and we landed on the visual 25.

Now, what terms did I use incorrectly in that post?
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:22 pm



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 39):
what terms did I use incorrectly in that post?

How about not saying incorrect, just confusing term of "full IFR"!
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:22 pm



Quoting FutureUALpilot (Reply 38):
A missed approach is when an instrument approach cannot be completed for any reason. A go around is a rejected/balked landing, either VFR or IFR. Same idea, different phases of flight.

I know what you mean I was being just a little amused at your "two entirely different things" quote. I'm remembering numerous times in the sim after breaking out of the clouds on an INSTRUMENT app the "tower" says "Fedex 123 go around". The "tower " told us to go around but had we elected to reject the landing we would have "missed". Once going into CDG we were still IFR at 300' when the tower told us to "climb to 3000' and turn left to 360". Did we miss or go around? LOL
 
Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:26 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 40):
How about not saying incorrect, just confusing term of "full IFR"!

That sounds fair  Wink
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
futureualpilot
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:08 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 41):
I know what you mean I was being just a little amused at your "two entirely different things" quote. I'm remembering numerous times in the sim after breaking out of the clouds on an INSTRUMENT app the "tower" says "Fedex 123 go around". The "tower " told us to go around but had we elected to reject the landing we would have "missed". Once going into CDG we were still IFR at 300' when the tower told us to "climb to 3000' and turn left to 360". Did we miss or go around? LOL

Sounds like good times in the soup! Gotta love flying.
Life is better when you surf.
 
AAR90
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:48 pm



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 35):
I fly into SBA at least once every two weeks and the winds are usually 4-9 MPH. Believe me, I know when they are more. The winds were at least 30 MPH.

Based upon what ACCURATE, RELIABLE, VERIFIABLE data collection? How much real world EXPERIENCE do you have estimating wind from an airplane window flying over the ocean (think about your answer carefully, you're talking to a former USN aviator who did that daily for 10 years--and taught new aviators how to accurately estimate the LOCAL wind).

Quoting Boston92 (Reply 35):
I really don't get what you are doing.

You originally spun a fairy tail and were caught by the FACTS. Stop trying to state a GUESS as if it were FACT. This is Tech/Ops, not civil aviation. People here actually KNOW the difference. NOBODY who was NOT in the cockpit during the approach has any KNOWLEDGE of what the winds encountered were. EVERYTHING else is a guess. And in your case, it is easier trying to figure out what in your original post was true.... (1) it was a bumpy ride --but not unusual or unsafe; (2) the pilots flared twice --not unusual or unsafe; (3) the plane landed "long" --not unusual or unsafe. Nothing else was accurate. 'nuf said.
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2H4
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:37 pm

...And with that, I believe AAR90 has officially put the smack in the down and locked position.  biggrin 

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
Boston92
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 12:37 am



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 44):

You have to realize that I am smart enough to know that you are so much smarter than me (in this field). You are a Check Airman for American Airlines, and I know your experience alone puts you way ahead of me. I do not know what exactly the winds were on our approach, but I could get in the ballpark. They could have been calm and we were being tossed around by another source other than wind, or they could have been 30 MPH, or 20 MPH, or 10 MPH. I am also smart enough to know the winds were nowhere near 75 MPH...and I never meant that in my original post. But the fact remains that there was SIGMET issued. There were no thunderstorms in the area which would eliminate a convective SIGMET...also, it was not IMC conditions...so what other than severe winds could cause the issuance of a SIGMET?

(I ask that question seriously)
"Why does a slight tax increase cost you $200 and a substantial tax cut save you 30 cents?"
 
AAR90
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 1:54 am



Quoting Boston92 (Reply 46):
...so what other than severe winds could cause the issuance of a SIGMET?

Deleting all the rubbish and answering your basic question (a 5 second Google search for SIGMET):

NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE INSTRUCTION 10-810
b. Significant Meteorological Advisories (SIGMET): A SIGMET contains information on specified weather phenomena of an intensity and/or extent which concerns pilots and operators of all aircraft. When weather conditions meeting or exceeding criteria for SIGMET issuance occur or are expected to occur within two (2) hours, a SIGMET will be issued. In the continental United States and coastal waters, SIGMETs have been separated into two classes, convective and nonconvective. Convective SIGMETs (WST) concern only thunderstorms and related phenomena (tornadoes, heavy precipitation, hail, and high surface winds) and imply the associated occurrence of turbulence, icing, and convective LLWS. They are issued hourly and are valid for up to two (2) hours. Each hourly issuance supersedes and cancels the remainder of the previous issuance. Contained in each WST bulletin is an Outlook valid for the period from two (2) to six (6) hours after the issuance time of the bulletin. Nonconvective SIGMETs (WS) are valid for up to four (4) hours and concern turbulence, icing, dust, sand, volcanic eruptions, or volcanic ash when of sufficient intensity and areal extent, usually defined as an area approximately one (1) latitude degree squared or approximately 3000 square miles.


Note the highlighted words. A SIGMET does NOT mean you WILL experience ANYTHING. It is nothing more than an "ADVISORY" to pilots/operators and is most often issued based upon FORECAST weather conditions. IOW, just because a SIGMET was issued for KSBA area does NOT indicate that any significant weather was ACTUALLY observed or encountered. For your argumentative purpose... it means exactly... nothing.
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pilotpip
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 2:25 am

All a SIGMET does is let you know that conditions that could be of hazard to aircraft operations could exist in an area. Basically it can be for something as simple as letting us know it might not be a good idea to turn the seatbelt sign off.

It's rare this time of year for any flight to not travel through an area where there is an AIRMET or SIGMET for Icing, turbulence, IFR, etc. The weather is changing, the jetstream is moving south, the freezing level is lowering and the ride is getting bumpy.
DMI
 
LASoctoberB6
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RE: When To Go-Around?

Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:03 am



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 47):
(a 5 second Google search for SIGMET):

Sometimes, you can't always trust what you find up on Google, so asking here with people who have more legit knowledge does wonders.  Smile
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