744lover
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WN 737 Cockpit

Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:38 pm

Hi there,


I wonder why WN removed the VNAV button from their 737 cockpits.


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Shouldn't this feature reduce pilot's workload? Let's say in a CIVET approach into LAX where altitude restrictions are a pain in the a... It would help a lot


Any hint?


Best regards!
GHN

[Edited 2007-11-23 07:58:43]
 
modesto2
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:27 pm

WN doesn't have autothrottle installed in its fleet - therefore, VNAV is inop.
 
LASoctoberB6
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Fri Nov 23, 2007 5:06 pm



Quoting Modesto2 (Reply 1):
WN doesn't have autothrottle installed in its fleet - therefore, VNAV is inop.

Why?
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744lover
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:41 pm



Quoting Modesto2 (Reply 1):
WN doesn't have autothrottle installed in its fleet

You can see on the first and second photos that the A/T engage switch is there, therefore it should have A/T operational.
 
flynavy
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Sat Nov 24, 2007 7:07 am

There are no auto-throttle engage switches on the trust levers.

As for the reasoning, it's most likely for commonality between their 733/735 and 737NG fleets to optimize pilot familiarity. I would imagine their classic 737s are without VNAV as well.

This is a Delta 737-832 with VNAV/Auto-Throttle installed:



[Edited 2007-11-23 23:24:13]
Change is: one airline, six continents!
 
737tdi
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:08 pm

O.K.: Here goes. Modesto 2, WN does have autothrottle installed. It's just deactivated. It would take me no time to have it working. Same as the VNAV.

Flynavy: What you have highlighted are actually referred to as TOGA switches, they control quite abit more than throttles. This is the exact configuration of WN's throttles.

As for the answer to why it is not used. WN does not use autopilot to land which is the main purpose of autothrottle, this being said, why have it there if you don't use it for it's intended purpose it's more expense in equipment and downtime when it breaks. As for the policy of not using the autopilot for landing that's up to someone with a paygrade much higher than mine, they have kept us profitable for many, many years so I defer to their wisdom. Not much help but there it is.

737tdi
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Sat Nov 24, 2007 2:09 pm



Quoting 737tdi (Reply 5):
It would take me no time to have it working. Same as the VNAV.

And then the crews and ops spec need to be signed off on the use of it, which I've heard in the rumor mill is coming!
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
SPREE34
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Sat Nov 24, 2007 5:48 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 6):
And then the crews and ops spec need to be signed off on the use of it, which I've heard in the rumor mill is coming!

As is usually the case with Southwest, slow, methodical, effective, profitable change. Not a bad way to do business. I'm no MBA, but it seems to have worked well for about 35 years.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
737tdi
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:36 pm

I really don't think so but I don't have any clue. I have no idea what is going on the flight ops side of things, until they come downn with the EA or CCO to change a system. I think we will stay the same.

737tdi
.
 
pilotpip
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Tue Nov 27, 2007 2:52 am

They don't use A/T to reduce training costs much like the PFD's having a traditional instrument setup. At one time they were still operating steam guaged aircraft in addition to the NGs and this allowed the crews to operate both models.
DMI
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:33 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
much like the PFD's having a traditional instrument setup. At one time they were still operating steam guaged aircraft in addition to the NGs and this allowed the crews to operate both models.

So I wonder how much more CO training costs are then as the B73X crews fly all the round dial 300's, 500's, and the NG's?
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
744lover
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Tue Nov 27, 2007 12:41 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
They don't use A/T to reduce training costs

Hi Pilotpip,

I think that the training required to operate the A/T and VNAV would be minimal, so to speak. Think of the advantages of reduced pilot workload. Another point is that the future will have based on VNAV approaches, like GNS and RNAV. WN should train their pilots for that!



Best Regards!
GHN
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:09 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
They don't use A/T to reduce training costs much like the PFD's having a traditional instrument setup. At one time they were still operating steam guaged aircraft in addition to the NGs and this allowed the crews to operate both models.

The extra training for A/T use is minimal if anything at all. The only extra cost to allow common Classic and NG pilot rating is differences training to cover the different scan technique. All 737's have the same type rating.

Southwest seem to have a culture which prefers to avoid automation. Until recently they didn't approve the use autobrake either. It's as if they want to fly using the same techniques they used on their original 737-200s.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:15 pm



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 12):
Southwest seem to have a culture which prefers to avoid automation. Until recently they didn't approve the use autobrake either

why would they want to do that.Technology when available should be utilised.
i'm only thinking did they experience too many malfunctions in these systems to warrant this.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:29 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 13):
why would they want to do that.Technology when available should be utilised.
i'm only thinking did they experience too many malfunctions in these systems to warrant this.

I think it was to keep flight procedures the same as they had been before on the 737-200, but I'm open to correction on this. I don't think it was a reliability issue.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
barney captain
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:41 pm

The statements made so far pretty much sum it up - in a nutshell, it comes down to controlling costs. I do know that these things are constantly being reevaluated and imo, will come in to play sooner rather than later. Flight Ops is in the process of implementing RNP with the help of a company started by some really smart guys from AS (Naverus - http://www.naverus.com/Home.htm) which I believe will require VNAV and AT's.

[Edited 2007-11-27 11:14:49]
Southeast Of Disorder
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:06 pm



Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 15):
Flight Ops is in the process of implementing RNP with the help of a company started by some really smart guys from AS (Naverus - http://www.naverus.com/Home.htm)

Oh way smart guys.....NAVERUS is the only known hope to take on the 800 lb gorilla (FAA) and their methodical implementation process. Great reading on their website.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
barney captain
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Tue Nov 27, 2007 7:56 pm

Yea, this stuff seems like it will be VERY cool - I understand you guys are using it to some degree in IAH. Apparently we will be able to do circling precision approaches down to CAT 1 mins in places like MDW on runway 22L that currently have no precision approach. Sweet. I imagine VNAV is required, but do you know if the AT's are?

BTW, heres a better link to their site http://www.naverus.com/
Southeast Of Disorder
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:24 am



Quoting Barney Captain (Reply 17):
I understand you guys are using it to some degree in IAH

Yep,RNP's should show up in around 7 months in the form of some specials initially.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:33 am

Since Boeing already designed RNP capability into the 737NG, why do Southwest need to employ a consulting firm to implement RNP procedures now?
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
JAGflyer
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:44 am

Isn't A/T needed to maintain speed? I doubt a pilot would want to keep adjusting the throttles while in cruise on a 4 hour flight.
Support the beer and soda can industry, your recycle old airplanes!
 
barney captain
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:24 am



Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 20):
I doubt a pilot would want to keep adjusting the throttles while in cruise on a 4 hour flight.

Or 6 1/2 from PHL to OAK, but that's the way we do it.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:37 am



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 19):
Since Boeing already designed RNP capability into the 737NG, why do Southwest need to employ a consulting firm to implement RNP procedures now?

Just because the aircraft is certified to do something, doesn't automatically mean the airline has been certified to do it.

I think that's the way it works.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
Alias1024
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Thu Nov 29, 2007 8:13 am



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 10):
So I wonder how much more CO training costs are then as the B73X crews fly all the round dial 300's, 500's, and the NG's?

CO also has the round dial representation on their NGs.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:56 pm



Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 23):
CO also has the round dial representation on their NGs.

Where?

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 22):
I think that's the way it works.

I know to fly an RNAV (RNP) approach the operator must be certified just the same as with a RNAV (GPS) approach.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:24 pm



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 22):
Just because the aircraft is certified to do something, doesn't automatically mean the airline has been certified to do it.

I think that's the way it works.

Of course, but it still sounds like there's some unnecessary "wheel designing" going on. However, from personal experience I can understand that, with the FAA to be satisfied, nothing is certain.  Wink
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
744lover
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:03 pm

It seems like someone who prefers to use TELEX, when we have internet and real-time systems, just because they used it in the past and don't want to give training to their employees.

I would bet also that WN does not use ACARS to upload Flight Plans, Wind data etc. (time savings) because it would cost them $$$ to send data...


Best regards!
GHN
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Thu Nov 29, 2007 3:38 pm



Quoting 744lover (Reply 26):
I would bet also that WN does not use ACARS to upload Flight Plans, Wind data etc. (time savings) because it would cost them $$$ to send data...

Its upto the company to decide how to balance Costs with technology that would make things easier.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:00 pm



Quoting IAHFLYR (Reply 24):
Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 23):
CO also has the round dial representation on their NGs.

Where?

700:

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800:

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900:

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I always thought Continental used the PFD/ND set up.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:11 pm

Is the EFIS or PFD/ND presentation style on the 737NG pilot selectable? It seems strange that one airline should have different presentations on some aircraft. Maybe Continental saw the Southwest display style and decided they preferred it and so changed their display options (the PFD/ND photo is the oldest).
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Thu Nov 29, 2007 6:49 pm



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 28):

Very nice
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ShyFlyer
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:15 pm



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 29):
Is the EFIS or PFD/ND presentation style on the 737NG pilot selectable?

Selectable by the pilot, no. I recall reading in a thread here some time back that the display style can be changed from one to the other rather simply by maintenance staff.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Sat Dec 01, 2007 2:15 am



Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 31):
I recall reading in a thread here some time back that the display style can be changed from one to the other rather simply by maintenance staff.

I'm almost positive it's a program pin on the DEU (Display Electronics Unit). So a simple wiring change would flip the displays.

Tom.
 
Transpac787
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:05 am

In the 737-924 picture, the captain side is PFD/ND, while the FO side is the old 6-pack display.
 
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Jetlagged
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Sat Dec 01, 2007 1:47 pm



Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 33):
In the 737-924 picture, the captain side is PFD/ND, while the FO side is the old 6-pack display.

Well spotted! It's a pre-delivery shot, so maybe they had it specially set up to show the two display options.
The glass isn't half empty, or half full, it's twice as big as it needs to be.
 
Max Q
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:17 am

'The main purpose of autothrottles is for autoland'

Rubbish, it is a small part of the equation, we use autothrottles throughout the flight from take-off to autoland (if we wish or it is needed)

They are a major workload reducer and fuel saver.

This policy of SWA'S to dumb down the aircraft is a strange example of their aversion to technological progress.

I have no doubt that most SWA pilots would adjust quite easily to using the aircraft's capability to the fullest extent.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
QantasHeavy
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:10 am

I would have thought the auto throttle would produce much better fuel economy, like cruise control in a car. And therefore pay for itself for any training certification issues.

I am not a pilot but I am an MBA, and if there's one thing business schools drills into you it is that Southwest is a very well managed company and everything they do is deliberate and (mostly) has been very well thought-out and successful... so while I don't understand why they don't use LNAV, etc (didn't you guys just get LNAV not too long ago at SW?) but when you look at operational performance it is hard to find faults in the SW strategy... so I will sit back in my armchair and trust that good'ole Herb knew what he was doing.

I have a pretty sophistcated 737NG set up on my PC (for some of us that's as close as we'll get to the front office) and the VNAV is such a hassle to configure in the FMC I just don't use it anyway (though would love to learn how to program the VNAV portion as I always get an FMC message telling me this or that is not set so no VNAV).
 
barney captain
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Mon Dec 24, 2007 6:25 pm



Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 36):
(didn't you guys just get LNAV not too long ago at SW?)

Seems like its been 10 or so years since LNAV went live.

Our work towards getting RNP up and running AFAIK will require VNAV but I'm still not clear if AT's will be part of the package as well.

Quoting QantasHeavy (Reply 36):
I would have thought the auto throttle would produce much better fuel economy, like cruise control in a car. And therefore pay for itself for any training certification issues.

I agree, and that's something the powers that be are continually looking at.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
SPREE34
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:20 pm



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 19):
RNP capability



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 19):
RNP procedures

Two different things. Sort of like OWNING a car doesn't mean you can DRIVE a car.
FAA is also way behind the airlines in technical savvy.
I don't understand everything I don't know about this.
 
barney captain
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RE: WN 737 Cockpit

Mon Dec 24, 2007 7:39 pm



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 19):
Since Boeing already designed RNP capability into the 737NG, why do Southwest need to employ a consulting firm to implement RNP procedures now?



Quoting SPREE34 (Reply 38):


Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 19):
RNP capability



Quoting Jetlagged (Reply 19):
RNP procedures

Two different things. Sort of like OWNING a car doesn't mean you can DRIVE a car.
FAA is also way behind the airlines in technical savvy.

Exactly. From what Flight Ops is telling us, this will be the single biggest undertaking in their history. Apparently it goes way beyond aircraft/aircrew certification and training. It involves designing custom tailored approaches to places like MDW.
Southeast Of Disorder

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