MAN23R
Topic Author
Posts: 94
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:20 am

Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:19 pm

Evening everyone,

I want to comment on the experience i had on my flight from BUD to LPL (738 flt no 4233) yesterday evening, We departed approx 20:00h local time. Our flight was delayed about 15 minutes due to two passengers being late, once the straddlers where onboard the crew shut the doors, we then started a much needed deicing procedure.

Anyway, we where about half way through our flight (-40 OAT), when i saw what i thought was a sticker on the panel just under the window line (sat centre of the right wing, behind the exit), i touched it as i was curious to what it was, it was definatly frost forming. I glanced over to the seat in front to see if it was the same and it was, but much worse. I didnt call the FA as i wasnt sure if they're was something wrong.

As a side note, i want to thank the crew for a great landing, was extremly windy, just about managed to land the plane

Hopefully someone could shed some light on this.

PS. the frost was about 2 inch by 10 inch on eash panel

scott

[Edited 2007-12-10 10:21:26]
 
jetblueguy22
Posts: 2584
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 12:26 am

RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:18 pm

That is not good. I'm sure the crew must have known. That is not something you just don't pay attention to, especially if you deiced prior to departure.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
varig md-11
Posts: 1113
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RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:29 pm

Cryanair must be billing 50 cents to pax for heating system: since most pax don't buy the option, ice is forming in the cabin....or else, they cashed the heating tax and turned the onboard heating computer to minimum to save even more money  Yeah sure  bored 
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prebennorholm
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RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:47 pm

Frost is very common on windows and their surroundings. Especially when pax board long time before departure to the dryer air high up, They may exhale gallons of water just from breathing before you start.

Dew may have been there already before take off, and then you climb into minus 50 degrees C. And there are plenty of heat bridges.

Except for the view out of the window it is an advantage. If the frost is not there, then it is because the air is extremely dry which is not comfortable, especially not on long range flights.

On new airliner types such as the Boeing 787 the air-conditioning system will add water to the cabin air for comfort reasons. That is possible since the cabin structure is made of carbon fibre composites which unlike aluminum does not corrode when exposed to moisture.

On present day planes the relative humidity may get as low as 10% during a long flight. Most comfortable level would be roughly 50%, but I doubt that Boeing is planning on such a high level, my guess would be in the 25-30% region. 50% would mean that the plane would have to carry a substantial amount of water for an intercontinental flight, and it would also mean massive ice buildup on windows etc.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:49 pm



Quoting MAN23R (Thread starter):
just about managed to land the plane

Well, glad you survived.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:06 pm

Window exits and the seats right near them can get VERY cold on the 737 and 757. You feel cold air blowing in at your feet sometimes. Never seen frost forming on the inside of the window, but have seen crystals on the inside of the plexiglass.

I also see water drop out of the door seals when it's very warm and humid outside and then pressurize the cabin.

On Airbus and MD narrowbodies, instead of this phenomenon, there's the clouds of condensation that pour out of the A/C system during pressurization in warm climates. For some reason the Boeing system doesn't do this much if at all, but the MD80s do it dramatically, and the A320s do it as well in my experience.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
bond007
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RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:10 pm



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
but the MD80s do it dramatically, and the A320s do it as well in my experience.

Yep ... the E170s actually snow out of the vents (not the personal vents), under the right conditions. We were taxying yesterday at DCA, and it was quite a holiday experience!


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
PHKLM
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Joined: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:28 pm

RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:33 pm



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
On Airbus and MD narrowbodies, instead of this phenomenon, there's the clouds of condensation that pour out of the A/C system during pressurization in warm climates. For some reason the Boeing system doesn't do this much if at all, but the MD80s do it dramatically, and the A320s do it as well in my experience.

Yep, I've had a steam bath on an A320 JJ in Rio de Janeiro and rain falling from the ceiling of a 777 upon opening the cabin doors in MXP. Oh well, just a few drops then.
 
jetstar
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RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:43 pm

One time I was on a TWA 757 sitting in an exit row just aft of the coach lavs, on TWA’s 757’s they did not have over wing emergency exits like most other 757’s they had a slightly smaller exit door aft of the wing.

I was sitting in a window seat and placed a ½ cup of water in a plastic cup on the floor next to the door. When I picked it up about 15 minutes later, the water was frozen from the outside air. Even though the cabin is pressurized and air will be pushed out through any opening in the fuselage, there was enough cold air at the door seal to freeze the water in the cup
 
bok269
Posts: 1568
Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:50 pm



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 5):
On Airbus and MD narrowbodies, instead of this phenomenon, there's the clouds of condensation that pour out of the A/C system during pressurization in warm climates. For some reason the Boeing system doesn't do this much if at all, but the MD80s do it dramatically, and the A320s do it as well in my experience.

I've noticed this several times in both FL and HA 717s.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
ikramerica
Posts: 13807
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:51 am



Quoting PHKLM (Reply 7):
and rain falling from the ceiling of a 777 upon opening the cabin doors in MXP.

That's not quite the same thing. That's just a rush of super warm and humid air into a dry and cool cabin. That would happen just about anywhere if there's somewhere to condense.

But the A/C system on the MDs and the Airbus narrowbodies spew out clouds for many minutes on a routine basis. The Boeing design must have a place to collect the condensate rather than spewing it back into the cabin, because I don't see it on the Boeing jets, or if it happens, it's very, very minor on a very, very hot and humid day.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 9):
I've noticed this several times in both FL and HA 717s.

Yep, I thought they would have solved it by the time the 717 rolled out, but I saw it on HA as well. And as someone pointed out, the E-Jets and ERJs can do it too, but I've never seen it as bad as on the DC9/MD80/MD90/717 series aircraft. It's a "design feature" that is "within spec" I suppose. But it can be confusing to pax.

And the ERJs are just horribly under A/C'd anyway. They can't keep cool on the ground even on cool days due to the oven effect of the sun on the metal skin, and have trouble keeping warm in the air. I had an interesting trip from MHT to EWR on one, where even though it was 45 degrees outside in New Hampshire, we were baking inside the ERJ until takeoff, then freezing all the way into EWR. Fun times... but no frost on the windows!  Smile
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
tdscanuck
Posts: 8572
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 7:25 am

RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting MAN23R (Thread starter):

Hopefully someone could shed some light on this.

It's pretty normal. Especially near an exit row, because there's a bunch of extra structure behind the sidewall to support the exit, which provides a heat bridge to the (very cold) skin.

Quoting Jetblueguy22 (Reply 1):
That is not good. I'm sure the crew must have known. That is not something you just don't pay attention to, especially if you deiced prior to departure.

Deicing has nothing to do with frost inside the plane. Likewise, frost inside the plane isn't a concern to the crew except from a passenger comfort point-of-view.

Tom.

[Edited 2007-12-10 17:42:50]
 
Jamie757
Posts: 838
Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:33 pm

RE: Frost Forming In The Cabin Of Ryanair Flight

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:44 am

This would do better in the Tech/Ops forum, I remember a thread on this previously. From what I remember, the cause is simply the removal or slippage of insulation material behind the panel.

Here we go.... Frost Build Up Inside An Airplane.. (by Slashd0t Aug 10 2005 in Tech Ops)

 Smile

Rgds.
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