SuseJ772
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What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:18 am

I saw the picture below and maybe it is the angle, but it just seemed like a really extreme initial take off angle. My first question is, what angle do you think this plane is at? And then second of all, what is a normal initial take off angle?


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mtyfreak
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:25 am



Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):
what is a normal initial take off angle?

10 degrees if I'm not mistaken,


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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):
My first question is, what angle do you think this plane is at?

25-30 degrees?

Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):
And then second of all, what is a normal initial take off angle

It depends. Rotation angle is somewhat predicated on avoiding tailstrikes, and of course this depends on the aircraft. Once off the ground, the pilots aim for an airspeed target, not a specific angle. The angle which gives the required airspeed varies depending on weight.

[Edited 2007-12-13 19:43:38]
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vikkyvik
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:54 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
25-30 degrees?

In my non-expert opinion, I'd put it more at 15-20 degrees.

I think in a typical rotation, an airplane would be aiming for around 10 degrees (I seem to recall someone saying that in the MD-11, you rotate up to 11 degrees). Given how low this airplane still seems to be, I doubt it would have reached 25-30 yet. I don't know if commercial airplanes with passengers even climb out that steeply - but like I said, I'm not an expert.
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avt007
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:46 am

Typical would be in the 10-15 degree range for most aircraft I've worked on.
 
KELPkid
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:51 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
25-30 degrees?

Probably not that extreme, as 30 degrees is the limit for a pitch maneuver being considered "aerobatic." Exceed that limit, and everyone on board would have to be wearing parachutes Big grin .

I'm sure the FBW envelope protection in the Triple Seven would kick in, too...although in a Boeing, you can still overpower it (using arm strength)  Wink The FBW system probably also has tail strike protection during the takeoff roll.
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tdscanuck
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:57 am



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 5):
The FBW system probably also has tail strike protection during the takeoff roll.

All 777-300ER's have tailstrike protection, as far as I know. They actually have a special actuator on the gear to tilt the gear near the end of rotation to hike the fuselage up that extra little bit to provide tail clearance.

Tom.
 
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jetmech
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 5:24 am



Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):

I think the camera angle may make it appear to be a steeper angle than it really is.

Regards, JetMech
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SuseJ772
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:19 am



Quoting MTYFREAK (Reply 1):
10 degrees if I'm not mistaken,



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 3):
I'd put it more at 15-20 degrees



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
25-30 degrees

I was thinking along these lines too Starlion. Given the only people on my RU list are you, SlamClick and PhilSquare, I'll trust you until one of them contradict you.  wink  Just kidding everybody. I am glad to hear all your perspectives.

Quoting JetMech (Reply 7):
I think the camera angle may make it appear to be a steeper angle than it really is.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of that.
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cptspeaking
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:37 am

I'd have to agree with the optical illusion, and I can definitely say it isn't pitched 30 degrees nose-up...

Check out this...the back of the fuselage seems to be parallel with the runway...similar to the photo below, in which the angle doesn't seem so great...


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I did think the same thing at first though... "Holy crap!!"  biggrin 

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PhilSquares
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:41 am



Quoting SuseJ772 (Thread starter):
I saw the picture below and maybe it is the angle, but it just seemed like a really extreme initial take off angle. My first question is, what angle do you think this plane is at? And then second of all, what is a normal initial take off angle?

Given it's a departure out of ZRH and it would be fairly heavy, the most likely attitude is between 13-15 degrees. That would be the "normal" attitude.

There are some other photos of aircraft departing out of various airports that have a very extreme looking pitch attitude, LAX is one that comes to mind. It's just the lense used and the camera angle that gives the "extreme" impression.
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:20 am



Quoting SuseJ772 (Reply 8):
I was thinking along these lines too Starlion. Given the only people on my RU list are you, SlamClick and PhilSquare, I'll trust you until one of them contradict you

Well, Philsquares just contradicted me.  Smile

There was a reason I put a question mark at the end. Total guesstimate.
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PhilSquares
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:36 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
Well, Philsquares just contradicted me.

There was a reason I put a question mark at the end. Total guesstimate

Not a correction, just an informed guesstimate!
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BoeingOnFinal
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:41 am

When talking about "extreme looking" angles, this photo comes to mind:


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People who do not know much about aviation could easily guess this to me 45º++ attitude, as there are no angle perception on the background in this particular picture.

Same applies with the picture in question, although not as extreme.
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:54 am



Quoting PhilSquares (Reply 12):

Not a correction, just an informed guesstimate!

Also known as a WAG.  Wink
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:33 pm



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 3):
(I seem to recall someone saying that in the MD-11, you rotate up to 11 degrees).

The MD-11 will hit the tail at about 11 deg. however that's more a player on landing. On t/o a nice 2 deg/sec rotation will have you off the grd. and still rotating up to a V2 + 10 climb angle. Heavy this may be 17-18 deg and light up to the max of about 25 deg. Last week I got to see both ; CDG-FRA with 48,000lb of fuel and we held 20-25 deg all the way to 10,000' 48 hrs later FRA-MEM was a 630.5 t/o and 17 deg was it.
 
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:17 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 15):
The MD-11 will hit the tail at about 11 deg. however that's more a player on landing. On t/o a nice 2 deg/sec rotation will have you off the grd. and still rotating up to a V2 + 10 climb angle. Heavy this may be 17-18 deg and light up to the max of about 25 deg. Last week I got to see both ; CDG-FRA with 48,000lb of fuel and we held 20-25 deg all the way to 10,000' 48 hrs later FRA-MEM was a 630.5 t/o and 17 deg was it.

Hmmm, OK, thanks for the info. I probably got confused as to what I was remembering.
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timz
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:24 pm

If we knew what time he took the pic, we could calculate the sun's azimuth and altitude-- and we can calculate the runway azimuth. Boeing's drawings give the shape of the triangle formed by the three gears; compare that with their shadows and seems like we ought to be able to get the actual inclination of that triangle to within a few degrees.
 
BAE146QT
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:58 pm

Interesting, and rather steep...


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qslinger
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:47 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
25-30 degrees?

Looks like it..

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
They actually have a special actuator on the gear to tilt the gear near the end of rotation to hike the fuselage up that extra little bit to provide tail clearance.

Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:37 pm



Quoting Qslinger (Reply 19):
Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??

It keeps the bogie rigid so that the aircraft sits on the last wheel pair. Otherwise the bogie would rotate around it's axle and the aircraft would rest on all the wheel pairs. This allows a higher rotation angle.
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jetmech
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:36 pm



Quoting Qslinger (Reply 19):
Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??

You can see the actuator on the forward part of the gear leg in this photo.


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tdscanuck
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Sun Dec 16, 2007 12:08 am



Quoting Qslinger (Reply 19):
Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 6):
They actually have a special actuator on the gear to tilt the gear near the end of rotation to hike the fuselage up that extra little bit to provide tail clearance.

Wow..didn't know that...How does this system work!!??

As Starlionblue and JetMech note above, it's hooked between the oleo strut and the front of the bogie. In Boeing speak, it's the truck positioning actuator. It's not an actively controlled system, the actuator is just hydraulically biased to want to pull the front of the bogie up. With full weight on the gear the actuator is overpowered and the bogie sits flat. During rotation, as the weight comes off, the actuator pulls the gear to ~15 degrees up tilt and the oleo extends. This hikes the airplane up on the back axle near the end of rotation, which provides a little extra clearance. When the MLG stow cycle beings, the actuator bias flips around and tips the bogie ~5 degrees down in preparation for retraction.

Tom.
 
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:11 am



Quoting JetMech (Reply 7):
I think the camera angle may make it appear to be a steeper angle than it really is.

 checkmark  checkmark  We go over this every time a photo like this appears in the database.
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timz
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:52 pm



Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 23):
We go over this every time

Well, yes, somebody says it every time, but nobody ever "goes over it". In any case, you agree the SQ 777 is pitched up steeper than usual-- it isn't all due to "camera angle"?
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:15 pm



Quoting Timz (Reply 24):
the SQ 777 is pitched up steeper than usual-- it isn't all due to "camera angle"?

I wouldn't say "steeper than usual" cause I say the pitch will be "normal" for those conditions up to the max which I would guess using most other large jets 25-28 deg.
 
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:59 pm



Quoting Timz (Reply 24):
Well, yes, somebody says it every time, but nobody ever "goes over it". In any case, you agree the SQ 777 is pitched up steeper than usual-- it isn't all due to "camera angle"?

No, this topic pops up every time a photo like this appears and is discussed to death. It's not that every photographer that has captured a takeoff from this angle happens to catch a rare and steeper than normal takeoff...it's simply the camera angle and telephoto lens that creates the optical illusion!
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timz
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:30 pm



Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 26):
and is discussed to death.

Like I said, it's never discussed, let alone discussed to death. People always say

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 26):
it's simply the camera angle and telephoto lens that creates the optical illusion!

but no one ever says which angle they're talking about, or how many degrees that angle is, or how to calculate the optical effect of any angle/lens combination. Long lenses have an effect all right, but can you find a thread where anyone actually did the spherical trigonometry to calculate the illusion? Can you find a thread where anybody calculated anything?
 
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:22 am



Quoting Timz (Reply 27):
but no one ever says which angle they're talking about, or how many degrees that angle is, or how to calculate the optical effect of any angle/lens combination. Long lenses have an effect all right, but can you find a thread where anyone actually did the spherical trigonometry to calculate the illusion? Can you find a thread where anybody calculated anything?

Um, I'm talking about discussions involving claims the the aircraft must be in an extreme angle. My point is, every time this kind of photo enters the database, someone posts a thread asking about what looks like an unusually extreme take off angle. When I saw this photo I knew a thread would soon pop up. For folks not used to seeing an aircraft take off from this angle, the angle of the aircraft might appear to be extremely out of the norm.

Sorry I don't have the data you are looking for. I don't even have time to search for threads. Maybe later. But I can say there was a similar thread about the photo in reply 13.
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chksix
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:42 am

Isn't 20 degrees deck angle the max allowed during climb out? I know it is for the 737...
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:19 pm



Quoting Chksix (Reply 29):
Isn't 20 degrees deck angle the max allowed during climb out? I know it is for the 737...

See my post #25
Most go any where from 22deg (best I remember for Dc-10) up to about 25-26deg for MD-11. True you have to light to see those attitudes.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:25 pm

I meant to add this to my last post...

Granted the angle does look pretty wild but you have to understand that the crew will rotate the jet up to a flight director commanded pitch so as to climb at V2+10 (I'm generalizing here) up to a max deckc angle given for that jet. They're not going to just rotate up to whatever and go. I can see it now..."hey want to somethoing wild? Watch this!!"
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:40 pm



Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 31):
Granted the angle does look pretty wild but you have to understand that the crew will rotate the jet up to a flight director commanded pitch so as to climb at V2+10 (I'm generalizing here) up to a max deckc angle given for that jet. They're not going to just rotate up to whatever and go. I can see it now..."hey want to somethoing wild? Watch this!!"

Indeed. Pitch is derived from weight and desired IAS. After rotation, there is no set angle.
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metroliner
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:45 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
Once off the ground, the pilots aim for an airspeed target, not a specific angle.

Hi Starlionblue! This isn't strictly true - you have target speeds for flap retraction etc. and might have to maintain less than 250kts under 10000', but the initial climb angle is important. In the 737 Classic, this means V2+20kts at a pitch of 15 degrees when using the Flight Director:

Quote:


737 Operations Manual, June 7, 2002

At 60 knots, the F/D pitch commands 15 degrees nose up.
...
At lift-off:
- The pitch command continues at 15 degrees until sufficient climb rate is acquired. Pitch then commands MCP speed (normally V2) plus 20 knots.


So, in the case of the 737-3/4/500, it suggests that the initial takeoff is made according to a pitch reference which then translates to a selected airspeed. A nit-picky point, but it's important in the field of avoiding tail-strikes and optimising take-off performance.  Smile

Quoting JetMech (Reply 21):
You can see the actuator on the forward part of the gear leg in this photo.

Very cool.

Toni
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metroliner
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 32):
After rotation, there is no set angle.

Argh, it took me so long to post the last one (I got confused with the quotes   ) but yes - that is half-right. No set angle once the sufficient climb rate has been acquired.

Toni

[Edited 2007-12-19 04:50:20] what's going on with the quote function?!?  Smile

[Edited 2007-12-19 04:50:57]
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:21 pm



Quoting Metroliner (Reply 34):
No set angle once the sufficient climb rate has been acquired.

True most jets do the same however I've always seen that, as you say, the "set" pitch angle is for tailstrike avoidance, etc I've never ever really stopped there and by lift off the command bars are already moving up to the V2 10 deck angle.

Quoting Metroliner (Reply 33):
Hi Starlionblue! This isn't strictly true - you have target speeds for flap retraction etc. and might have to maintain less than 250kts under 10000',

Technically Starlionblue IS correct. You are really flying a speed BUT in most modern jets the command bars of the F/D will give you the correct pitch angle for that speed. In the older jets like say the 727 I flew you had to "know" the correct pitch angle but in all cases you would adjust the pitch to fly the speed. We all were taught "gouges" that for a given speed the deck angle will be something like xx degs and you would shoot for that then fine tune it for each condition. Don't bring flap retract speeds etc into it that's another whole topic.
 
metroliner
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:34 pm

Hi CosmicCruiser,

The reason I said it was because in the 737 manual I have it states that the initial pitch command after 80kts is 15deg nose up. You say 'modern jets' - is the 737 Classic 'modern'? It seems to me a very much 'halfway house' aircraft, incorporating some very modern features of the NGs but retaining the look and feel of the Jurassic 737 somewhat. But that is another thread...

I agree that Starlionblue is correct in that you do not take off and climb out based on pitch alone - I just wanted to make the point that the climb angle is the primary reference for the rotation, and not the airspeed. Although, obviously, before you rotate, you must be at the correct airspeed...  

Toni


(edited to clarify bad phrasing)

[Edited 2007-12-19 05:36:18]
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Starlionblue
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:00 pm



Quoting Metroliner (Reply 33):
Hi Starlionblue! This isn't strictly true - you have target speeds for flap retraction etc. and might have to maintain less than 250kts under 10000', but the initial climb angle is important. In the 737 Classic, this means V2+20kts at a pitch of 15 degrees when using the Flight Director:

I know we both agree in essence. However I am wondering about your last sentence here. How can you keep it at V2+20kts with a set pitch without moving the throttles (or changing the mass of the aircraft)?

Quoting CosmicCruiser (Reply 35):
You are really flying a speed BUT in most modern jets the command bars of the F/D will give you the correct pitch angle for that speed.

Well that's what I meant. Whether it's the fleshbag or the plane figuring out the angle, the angle is dictated by the desired speed.



BTW I am immensely gratified at how many people said I was correct. Two and a half people in three posts! Big grin Big grin Big grin
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metroliner
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RE: What Is The Angle Of This Plane @ Takeoff

Wed Dec 19, 2007 2:24 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 37):
BTW I am immensely gratified at how many people said I was correct. Two and a half people in three posts!

This made me laugh out loud Big grin!

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 37):
How can you keep it at V2+20kts with a set pitch without moving the throttles (or changing the mass of the aircraft)?

V2 + 20kts is the target speed whilst at 15deg pitch. Once you've got that speed, adjust pitch to maintain that speed and then, as CosmicCruiser says, worry about the flap retraction speeds which all come into play after that point and after the VNAV has been engaged. I'm juggling this all in my head and it seems to make sense...

Toni  Smile
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