avt007
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Security For Airline Staff.

Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:17 pm

Here's the thing; I work for an airline. I have a biometric based security clearance that took months to receive, going through various federal government agencies to ensure that I'm not a security risk. I can bypass security, walk to the gate, board the plane with assorted tools, take the cockpit apart to fix something, fiddle with the engines, all the usual maintenance stuff, without any hassle. Indeed I am supposed to bypass the regular security checkpoint, using the biometric scanner instead. But if I'm going to actually fly on the aircraft, all of a sudden I'm a security risk! It brings to mind something a pilot once said, "you either trust us or you don't". He was referring to some rule regarding how much liquid a flight crew member could carry on board when they are on duty, versus deadheading. The amount apparently is different!
The same principle applies to myself and other maintenance staff- you trust us not to sabotage the aircraft or plant bombs at work, but when we come to fly, you want to have a close look at my shoes.
This train of thought came from the NonAv forum thread on FBI biometric databases. Someone said they'd be all for it if it meant less hassle at security.
So my question would be, is it realistic to consider allowing security clearance holders to by pass security on their way to board a flight?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:49 pm



Quoting Avt007 (Thread starter):
So my question would be, is it realistic to consider allowing security clearance holders to by pass security on their way to board a flight?

The question is can you trust everyone not to get influenced.........If you are the only one travelling its ok,but if theres more than one person travelling then Everyone needs to be security checked.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
tbanger
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sat Dec 29, 2007 8:50 pm

This topic is exactly like the argument for dangerous goods. Whilst the goods are essential for the safe operation of an aircraft, (fire extinguishers, batteries, oxygen bottles, fire squibs, seperation bolts,life jackets, dry ice etc.....) they are not deemed to be dangerous. As soon as they become 'cargo' they all of a sudden become dangerous goods.

Like too are the ground crew of an aircraft. You can bypass security (or be screened when you walk in the gate) go and get your tool box from the hangar and go about your business with no problems. As soon as you become a passenger you are suddenly dangerous goods and need to be consigned......or in this case screened.
 
jhooper
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:44 pm

It does seem rather pointless for an employee who can bypass security to go to work suddenly has to be screened as a pax. What that means is that if you're catching a ride somewhere after work and you're already in the sterile area, you have the exit the sterile area and then go back through to be screened. Besides, how is anyone going to know whether or not said employee followed the rules? Other than the threat of being fired for getting caught, the only thing making sure the employees are getting screened is the employee's integrity. TRUST--the foundation for good security  Yeah sure
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
avioniker
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:04 am

See if you can reconcile this. . .
I took a plane from the hangar to the gate at MCI a couple of years ago. The purpose was for me to give a taxi check sign-off to a mechanic.
I was riding the jump seat to STL on the same plane so it made sense for me to do the check thus saving someone else having to find a ride back to the hangar. Here's where it gets strange as only the TSA can make it strange;
I made the mistake of leaving the plane to use the rest room. When I went back to reboard, jump seat card in hand, the TSA gate people, all of whom knew me and saw me park the plane at the gate, chose me as one of their "random" pat-down search victims.
If anyone has any kind of sane, logical, or acceptable explanation for that one, I definitely want to hear it.

I know they have a job to do but, really. . .

 Silly
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
pilotpip
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sun Dec 30, 2007 1:55 am

I still fail to see why I can't carry a leatherman to tighten up a loose screw, or a pair of nail clippers to keep myself properly groomed but I have a crash axe on the back of my seat.

From what I understand TSA wasn't letting some pilots carry their flashlights through security right after 9/11. We had a number of flights cancelled because leaving the flashlight meant that they were in violation of our Ops Spec and therefore not legal to fly.
DMI
 
avt007
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:00 am

At the airport there is a security checkpoint for groundstaff to access the ramp. It consists of a guard, and an eyescanner.
Now this is second hand info , I did not witness it myself, but I have been told that some people were told they couldn't go through with a Leatherman type knife on their belt. Huh? What sense does that make? They aren't boarding aircraft, they're going airside to do their job, which they have been cleared for. I have no problem with security, but the pointless little problems are annoying. I have talked with different Transport Canada inspectors, who tell me they've had lots of security hassles with guards saying they can't be airside, when in fact they have the highest clearance of all when it comes to Canadian airports. And then there's the empire building going on everywhere, with each airport wanting to set their own security rules, it's silly.
And the business of liquids for flight crew, my God. "you can have a litre if you're on duty, but half a litre if you're deadheading". What kind of sense does that make?

[Edited 2007-12-29 18:01:57]
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:35 am



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 5):
From what I understand TSA wasn't letting some pilots carry their flashlights through security right after 9/11.

Thats strange.When was the ruling reversed.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
avt007
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:20 am

At an American airport, I checked in for a flight back home, with two other co-workers. The checkin staff knew we were cons, saw our ID, etc. Yet they wrote "SS" on our boarding passes, and we had to go through secondary screening, although we were airline staff travelling on our own airline, heading out of the USA. Seemed a little funny to me, but I had a nice chat with the lady who emptied my baggage and ran explosives residue checks on every thing I had with me. It was the most thorough inspection I ever had, outside of my doctors office!
 
avt007
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:27 am

Here's another anomaly that just came to mind. There is an aircraft bridge at a terminal that uses one door from the terminal to serve two gates. So as you go down the bridge it splits in a "Y", off to the two aircraft. At each end is a door to the ramp, as well as the aircraft entrance. The ramp door on one bridge has a code lock that prevents access to the ramp, while the other bridge has a code lock to stop you getting OFF the ramp! Not only is it very inconsistent and senseless, but you can get on and off the ramp without ever needing the code, provided you used the doors in the right order. I never did figure that one out....  Wink
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:08 am



Quoting Avt007 (Thread starter):
So my question would be, is it realistic to consider allowing security clearance holders to by pass security on their way to board a flight?

In my opinion (and I may be wrong) if you want to make airports truly secure then there should be security for everyone. Preferably two checkpoints manned by completely unrelated agencies.

I know this may be controversial, and that some people are indeed "trusted". However good security is based on the fact that no one is trusted. Just because he looks like the pilot you know doesn't mean you shouldn't search him.

Having said that, I think staff should have their own checkpoints. It's just more practical that way.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 5):
I still fail to see why I can't carry a leatherman to tighten up a loose screw, or a pair of nail clippers to keep myself properly groomed but I have a crash axe on the back of my seat.

"Don't question the logic of videogames."  Wink (You'll show your age if you know where that comes from).

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 6):
I have no problem with security, but the pointless little problems are annoying.

That's because they were created by people who don't actually work with security. It's easy to say "weapons should not be allowed" as long as you can leave the actual practicalities to people below your pay grade. Bastards...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
avt007
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sun Dec 30, 2007 6:50 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
"Don't question the logic of videogames."

Tron?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:50 pm



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 9):
I never did figure that one out

This is Amazing.Is it still continuing.  Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:11 am



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 11):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 10):
"Don't question the logic of videogames."

Tron?

Nice try. "The Lost Vikings". One of the characters answers that after another asks why the big end boss, who is supposed to be so evil, leaves all these powerups lying around for them in his fortress.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
avt007
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:55 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 12):
Is it still continuing.

After many years of frustration, I did manage to figure out the correct doors to use in the correct order. I then wrote it down, so I don't get confused.  ashamed 

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
"The Lost Vikings".

Sorry, never heard of it.
 confused 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Mon Dec 31, 2007 6:36 am



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 14):
After many years of frustration, I did manage to figure out the correct doors to use in the correct order. I then wrote it down, so I don't get confused

So the Door concept still exists. Smile
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:36 am



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 14):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 13):
"The Lost Vikings".

Sorry, never heard of it.
confused

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Vikings_II. It was developed by Blizzard, which is nowadays very famous for Starcraft, Warcraft, World of Warcraft... The three characters in The Lost Vikings even make a cameo appearance in the World of Warcraft instance "Uldaman".

A great game for its time.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Wed Jan 02, 2008 3:05 am

When on duty, to have tooling that some overzealous security screener may deem as potential weaponry is a necessity. However now jumping on the same aircraft as a passenger, well, you should by all rights be screened. Why, it isn't you that is a threat, it is your tool that could be used as a weapon to another very determined individual with some not-so-nice intentions. When I travel for work related reasons I stow my screwdrivers, minimag and leatherman in my toolbox, riding in the cargo. If I need them, I can access them at the destination station. The last time I carried a screwdriver on board when riding as a flight mechanic was pre-9/11. For various reasons all or most passengers, as well as the crew, knew I was on board. T They had me fixing stuck recline buttons, headset plug jammed with something broken in it, jammed catering containers in the galley etc... I vowed to myself to never be fixing shit in the cabin in flight ever again. I felt as if i was more entertaining to the pax than the IFE system (Read: 100 pair of eyes watching my every goddamn move.) . Unless it is an airworthiness item, and it never is, "I'll look at it on the ground."

On the other hand, another story. Flts departing YYZ to U.S. now have a re-screener at the entrance door to the a/c with a hand held detector. Random pax screening and occasional airport worker screening as well (last minute grooming issue or catering issue requiring a groomer/cataring staff to enter the a/c after the crew boards). Well there I am bringing the log book up. I was chosen at random, and the guy wanded me. I unloaded: a pocket full of screws from a panel I opened earlier in the shift, multi-tip, slotted and a 3" mini slotted screwdriver, my leathman, 3D cell maglight, 6" steel ruler and a can opener.He wanded myself, said okay, and i picked up all my weapons of minimal destruction. I then went on board exactly as I was when i walked up to the door. To me, THAT was retarded. That was some years ago, hasn't happened since but still trying to figure it out.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:15 am



Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 17):
The last time I carried a screwdriver on board when riding as a flight mechanic was pre-9/11. For various reasons all or most passengers, as well as the crew, knew I was on board. T They had me fixing stuck recline buttons, headset plug jammed with something broken in it, jammed catering containers in the galley etc... I vowed to myself to never be fixing shit in the cabin in flight ever again. I felt as if i was more entertaining to the pax than the IFE system (Read: 100 pair of eyes watching my every goddamn move.) . Unless it is an airworthiness item, and it never is, "I'll look at it on the ground."

 rotfl  I often avoid telling people I am a computer whiz, especially when I see a person perform truly cringe inducing feats on their laptops.

Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 17):
To me, THAT was retarded. That was some years ago, hasn't happened since but still trying to figure it out.

Why are you trying to figure it out. You just wrote your own answer.  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:20 am

I have been sent out of town on rescue missions in the past with as little as ten minutes warning. That is barely enough time to get my tools in order, get any parts I might need from stores, call the fiancee to tell her I will not be home that night, and get to the plane. There is never time to go go back to the front of the terminal and wait in line to be cleared by TSA. I just run to the plane, hand my gear to the rampers so they can place it onboard, run upstairs, grab my boarding pass, and then run back down the stairs to the plane. half the time I am sweating up a storm after rushing to make the flight, and sit in my seat next to a pax (there is always one on every flight) who is amazed that I am brave enough to fly on the planes I work on...

So, the way I see it, and from what I have read on official TSA and FAA releases, if I am traveling on official company business, I do not have to go through security. If I am traveling for pleasure or personal reasons, then yes, I do go through security.

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:59 am

I had an experience a few days ago. Together with a colleague annd a flight crew (two pilots, 4 hosties) I was sent to recover an AOG aircraft at a remote outstation to ferry it back to STN. Well, we fixed the plane and got it over to STN. I wisely left all my sharp tools in my toolbox to go as cargo back to my own homebase. We arrived in STN early in the morning, went to a hotel to get some sleep, with the intention to catch the noontime flight back home (same airline). I checked in my overnight bag and just took my flight case, with which I never had a problem before. Same,, the hosties carried their little roller cases with their duty stuff (they were also wearing uniform, while I was in civvies, not wanting to wear greasy overalls all day), though wearing my airside badge (for my homebase).
Now this STN security bloke rulled that my flight case (which contained electronic gear I was reluctant to check in) was too heavy for cabin luggage (it was 3 kgs over the 10 kg limit, they have scales at the security checkpoint). Same happened to one of the hosties. We both were ordered to check our stuff in, only problem was that the check-in counter was already closed.
So we missed our flight and had to wait three hours for the next one.
Also, I privately remarked to the hostie that the STN security guys were a bunch of w@nkers.
One of them must have overheard it, because shortly afterwards I was approached by a manager, who told me that criticism of STN security personnel and procedures was not allowed and that they had a zero tolerance policy there. I had to apologise to this manager or get arrested.

I have heard lots of horror stories about British security, apparently they have a lot of insecure loosers working there, who like to humiliate especially flight crew.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
avt007
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:06 pm

Pre 911, on AOG trips, I always rode jumpseat, with a razor knife and a screwdriver. Imagine trying that today.......
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:13 pm



Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 19):
So, the way I see it, and from what I have read on official TSA and FAA releases, if I am traveling on official company business, I do not have to go through security. If I am traveling for pleasure or personal reasons, then yes, I do go through security.

Are you referring to Freighter ops or Commercial Aircraft ops.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:16 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
Are you referring to Freighter ops or Commercial Aircraft ops.

This is airline ops...


Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
lowrider
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:19 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 5):
From what I understand TSA wasn't letting some pilots carry their flashlights through security right after 9/11.

I had that experience myself. When the screener tried to take my flashlight, I asked for a supervisor and requested that they show me, in an official manual or bulletin, where it was stated that I could not have one. After about 10 minutes of mumbling and tailchasing, I was told to go ahead, but to leave my flashlight at home next time, because he thought it
could be used as a weapon. I asked if he was worried I would bludgeon myself into unconsciousness.

If, despite the background check, airline employees are not to be trusted when going though security (for crew, even if you are operating), then why are screeners (who also have a background check) to be trusted? Who screens the screeners?
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Starlionblue
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:28 pm



Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 23):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
Are you referring to Freighter ops or Commercial Aircraft ops.

This is airline ops...

I'm going to nitpick here and say that both freighter and passenger can be commercial, and that they are both airline ops.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:31 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 24):
If, despite the background check, airline employees are not to be trusted when going though security (for crew, even if you are operating), then why are screeners (who also have a background check) to be trusted? Who screens the screeners?

Very good point. This is why I always argue for two independent checkpoints manned by different agencies.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:43 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
I'm going to nitpick here and say that both freighter and passenger can be commercial, and that they are both airline ops.

Thats true,so lets state Freighter Airline or Pax airline.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
kbfispotter
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:06 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 27):
Thats true,so lets state Freighter Airline or Pax airline.

I was taking about passenger carriers... I work for a regional as an A&P...

Kris
Proud to be an A&P!!!
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:16 am

For the cost of looking mildly ignorant, I'd like to ask: at a major int'l airport, for cargo ops at the freight terminal does the DHL, FEDEX and UPS crews have their own security screening area in the facility it self, or do they go through a pax terminal and then bused over to the freight facility? Granted pre-9/11: Tom Hanks just walks up from the ramp to jumpseat on the a/c in Cast Away (2000). Is this still happening?
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:05 am



Quoting KBFIspotter (Reply 28):
I was taking about passenger carriers... I work for a regional as an A&P...

So many differences worldwide.
Out here If you are part of crew,no boarding pass just a GD.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Buzz
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:37 am

Hi Avt007, Buzz here. Yes, I used to carry a Leatherman and a Mini-Mag everywhere I go. Now when I airliner-fly somewhere I go pretty much naked... well, that's how it feels.

There -is- a particle of logic to screening airline employees. Back in '87 a recently fired employee of PSA boarded in LAX, and used a large caliber pistol on the cabin, then flight crew of a BA-146. He'd been fired the day before, so he still had access to all the usual areas at work, most people didn't know he was sacked.

Of course I go along with the argument: I'm trusted to do magic and perform miracles to the airplane when nobody's watching. Why am I not trusted as a passenger?

Pardon me, switching rant mode to "standby" (grin)
 
avt007
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RE: Security For Airline Staff.

Thu Jan 03, 2008 6:18 pm



Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 29):
For the cost of looking mildly ignorant, I'd like to ask: at a major int'l airport, for cargo ops at the freight terminal does the DHL, FEDEX and UPS crews have their own security screening area in the facility it self, or do they go through a pax terminal and then bused over to the freight facility? Granted pre-9/11: Tom Hanks just walks up from the ramp to jumpseat on the a/c in Cast Away (2000). Is this still happening?

Where I am, there is no security other than for pax. Once you have access to the hangar, that's it.

Buzz, I hear ya! I feel kind of "naked" as well.

Here's another example of security bureaucracy- I started at a new job, and asked for electronic key fobs so I could get access to the office, the hangar,etc. When I was asked what areas I needed access to for my job, I replied "all of them".
The response from the Keeper Of The Keys was "no one gets access to everything", and no amount of logic and persuasion would change her mind. I got my keys, and they did allow me access to everything, again, provided I used the right doors. Only recently did I get a master key, and now I can go everywhere with out looking like a mouse in a maze.
This is what can happen when you give an individual or group control over something. It becomes their empire, and the purpose of the job is not their first concern, protecting their empire is. Frustrating!  banghead 

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