msllsmith
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:25 am

Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:51 pm

I'm in a little dilemma. Does anyone have any experience with dealing with a problem (in this case unsafe working assignment) when they (in this case both F/D but primarily Cabin crew) have no union to back them up?

Who does one turn to to act as their advocate ?

Thanks in advance.

(all responses and speculation ..... welcome)
There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:37 am

Does your company have something like an "I am concerned" form that can be turned in? Some sort of anonymous reporting that would allow a problem to be brought to light yet keep you from having any retrobution?

If not, there's always the FAA if it is a safety issue or violation of regulations.

This is exactly where a union is benneficial.
DMI
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 12:41 am

Not really sure what you are getting at but this may help.

http://www.osha.gov/

Complaints are anonymous and once a complaint is made the workplace is notified of the complaint and is given a time frame in which it must be fixed, also a public posting of the complaint along with what is being done to fix the problem must be posted for all employees to see. OSHA complaints are taken quite seriously and fines in the $100,000s can be issued for repeat problems.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
msllsmith
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:25 am

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:09 am

Thank you both..... this is the beginning of a discussion I am looking for.

The first suggestion as far as anonymity is out of the question, however, the FAA is still an option...I am beginning an iquiry in that direction. I have no desire to sink my airline, I want only to protect myself and my crews.

the second had occurred to me, but is still an unformed idea as to how to address it.

thanks to you both.

Any more ideas out there?
There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 17212
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:34 am



Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 2):
Complaints are anonymous

While this may be true, sometimes anonymity is a problem in practice. Even if the complaint is anonymous, perhaps the nature of the complaint points at the submitter.

Quoting Msllsmith (Reply 3):
I have no desire to sink my airline, I want only to protect myself and my crews.

A good attitude. You don't want to be seen as just another guy who whines about his job. You want to be seen as someone putting forward constructive criticism. This leads us to: You should have a plan to fix the problem. Never bring up problems without at least some idea about how they can be fixed.

Have you talked to your supervisor? IMHO you should do this so that you cover yourself and can say that "yes I did point this out". Who knows, your supervisor may even be helpful. If he's not, that just gives you more ammo.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2821
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:49 am

It usually takes much more to sink an airline than reporting something to the FAA. In most cases the ultimate undoing will be the bad publicity after something happens.
DMI
 
474218
Posts: 4510
Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:51 am



Quoting Msllsmith (Thread starter):
I'm in a little dilemma. Does anyone have any experience with dealing with a problem (in this case unsafe working assignment) when they (in this case both F/D but primarily Cabin crew) have no union to back them up?

Without knowing what your "little dilemma" is, I would say you have two things going for you:

1. You have a job, even if you think it is unsafe.

2. You don't have a union.
 
bond007
Posts: 4425
Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2005 2:07 am

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:39 am



Quoting 474218 (Reply 6):

1. You have a job, even if you think it is unsafe.

2. You don't have a union.

And both of those could be a great thing ... or a terrible thing.

One piece of advice - not knowing exactly your issue - is to ensure your own a$$ is covered at the same time.
Make sure whenever you send an email, or write a letter, you make copies. If you send via USPS, make it certified, so you have some record. Write everything down with dates/times.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
msllsmith
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:25 am

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 2:51 am

Thanks. Keep the cards and letters coming.

Everything all of you have said is very helpful.

I'm beat. Off to bed.....long day debating the issues with myself, and one or two other aviation professionals like yourselves...... to hopefully digest these answers (sometimes stuff like this comes into focus in REM sleep..... a break from flying......"?Que es this "REM sleep thing?") and look forward to more.

In advance,

msllsmith

edit: Yes, S. Blue...... I agree emphatically. A solution is always preferable to a stupid gripe. I have it covered..... finding some one with the guts to agree is going to need some diplomacy.

Still thinking....please keep "the cards and letters" coming.

Also, does anyone remember this one? "Happy Contrails"

WBRs

llsmith

[Edited 2008-01-02 18:58:49]
There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 17212
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:53 am



Quoting Msllsmith (Reply 8):
Also, does anyone remember this one? "Happy Contrails"

The Skipper?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 10:37 am



Quoting 474218 (Reply 6):
Without knowing what your "little dilemma" is, I would say you have two things going for you:

1. You have a job, even if you think it is unsafe.

2. You don't have a union.

Tell that to the ValueJet employees that are still scattered about the everglades.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
PITingres
Posts: 1012
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:59 am

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 1:47 pm

This sort of thing can be tricky. Some questions for you to ponder:

Do others agree that there is a problem? Does the immediate supervisor(s) involved agree that there is a problem? Does higher management, assuming that they are aware of it?

Do you have a solution, even a partial one?

Have you gone to a supervisor about it? If so, what was the reaction? agreement but no action? or benign disagreement? or were you told to shut up and go away?

Is your immediate manager/supervisor the one who needs to deal with the problem, or does the perceived problem belong to someone not in your direct reporting chain? If the latter, has someone more directly affected also tried to report and deal with the problem? if not, why not? or if so, what was supervisor or management reaction?

Basically what you want to do is get a clear picture of whether you're dealing with ignorance or malice, and where you fit into the chain of things. It will help if you have some ideas to offer and aren't seen as "merely a complainer". Don't skip management levels unless you have a malignant idiot at the lower level. Avoid hyperbole and maintain a matter-of-fact tone in any correspondence.

Good luck with this!
Fly, you fools! Fly!
 
msllsmith
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:25 am

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:05 pm

I want to thank all of you who have taken the time to give truly thoughtful and considered replies.

I love the Aviation Industry and I feel that it is our responsibility to do what we can to improve/maintain high quality with in it. Cutting corners in regards to safety is always a bad decision and eventually has bad results.

As well as giving me some good ideas, you have above all bolstered my own feelings about how to proceed.

As I said above, I have no desire to "sink" my carrier. Once in a while I believe it is important to take a stand even if it means you have to take it on the chin. In my case a suspension for a short period of time and a not life threatening loss of pay. Who knows, perhaps some of the discussions I am provoking will lead to some productive changes.

Thanks,

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Quoting Msllsmith (Reply 8):
Also, does anyone remember this one? "Happy Contrails"

The Skipper?

Yeah, The Skipper
There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.
 
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Starlionblue
Posts: 17212
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 3:37 pm



Quoting Msllsmith (Reply 12):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Quoting Msllsmith (Reply 8):
Also, does anyone remember this one? "Happy Contrails"

The Skipper?

Yeah, The Skipper

I miss The Skipper. He always lit up the room, so to speak. I miss Captain Click too, for his dry humor and those great stories. I know Captain Click is lurking. Perhaps The Skipper is too...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
msllsmith
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 3:25 am

RE: Where Do You Go For Help .....?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:10 pm

S.Blue......I hope so, I've been lurking as well.... but broke my self imposed silence..... am going back to the woodwork.

Where there's life there's hope.
There's nothing more beautiful than flying into the dawn.

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