GoingAround
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'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:12 pm

Hello all,

I have never heard of a case of this, but thought that actually it might be possible.

Say a pilot wanted to take himself and his family away for a holiday, but knew the flight was likely to be full and stand-by seats hard to come-by, could he purchase refundable e-tickets for his family as a way to 'reserve' the seats on the aircraft, and then wait for check-in to close (obviously after not checking in on his e-tickets), with the hope that the seats reserved for HIS tickets now become available as non-rev for him and his family to take as a non-paying passengers, and claim the money back on the unused full far tickets?

Sounds far fetched I know, but would it be possible? Has anyone ever heard of a case of this?

Thanks,
Alex
 
airfoilsguy
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:22 pm

Not a bad idea, just don't get caught. I wouldn't risk my job over it.
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HAWK21M
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:30 pm

A Pilot Earns a lot.Would it be worth the Trouble for the cost of the Consequences ?
regds
MEL
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don
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:09 pm

Long time ago (early 1990s), not in a galaxy far far away but flying out of an Asian airport to another Asian airport, my wife and two kids were given seats of a heavily overbooked flight even though they were non-rev. In fact some rev pax were left behind. It helped to have the station manager as a good friend of mine and only later on he told me how he did that.

While I can't recall the exact details, the guys basically hid my family in a huge group and fiddled with the statistics that were sent to head office which indicated that the non-revs traveled next day when the flight was wide open. I think they replaced their ticket coupons with some pax who actually traveled next day.

May be it is difficult to do something similar these days with the security considerations and eticketing. But there is always a way, especially if you have the right connections and happen to be in the right continent.

(And please don't ask me why my family didn't travel next day when the flight was wide open, they HAD to travel that day to attend a wedding on which my son was the page.)
 
10mid
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Thu Jan 03, 2008 9:33 pm



Quoting GoingAround (Thread starter):
I have never heard of a case of this, but thought that actually it might be possible.

Some airlines have, and there are policies specifically prohibiting this practice.
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:13 am

Some individuals I used to know were guilty of such fun offenses.

Book a "party of 10 Rodriguez".....when they suddenly don't show, that CRJ has plenty of room to stretch out on.

End of story...completely a terminating offense, btw.

DeltaGuy
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Viscount724
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:16 am



Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 5):
Some individuals I used to know were guilty of such fun offenses.

Book a "party of 10 Rodriguez".....when they suddenly don't show, that CRJ has plenty of room to stretch out on.

End of story...completely a terminating offense, btw.

I know of several airline employees (one a VP) who lost their jobs due to abuse of their travel privileges. It's not worth it.
 
avt007
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Fri Jan 04, 2008 1:45 am

It's not unusual to have employees lose their travel privileges, and without those, what's the point? Airline jobs are often not great paying positions, so without travel benefits, you might as well quit.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:47 am



Quoting GoingAround (Thread starter):
Hello all,

I have never heard of a case of this, but thought that actually it might be possible.

Say a pilot wanted to take himself and his family away for a holiday, but knew the flight was likely to be full and stand-by seats hard to come-by, could he purchase refundable e-tickets for his family as a way to 'reserve' the seats on the aircraft, and then wait for check-in to close (obviously after not checking in on his e-tickets), with the hope that the seats reserved for HIS tickets now become available as non-rev for him and his family to take as a non-paying passengers, and claim the money back on the unused full far tickets?

Sounds far fetched I know, but would it be possible? Has anyone ever heard of a case of this?

It is possible but most airlines specifically ban staff from doing so... in fact at the very least staff are likely to loose their staff travel privilages for a year or 2 as a result... more seriously it could be for longer and in some cases is considered a sackable offence.
56 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:10 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 2):
A Pilot Earns a lot.Would it be worth the Trouble for the cost of the Consequences ?

Not in North America. At least without quite a bit of seniority. Junior pilots are paid in peanuts with the occasional small change thrown in.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:06 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):
Junior pilots are paid in peanuts with the occasional small change thrown in.

Hows that compared with Indian Pilots salary wise.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
doug_or
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Sat Jan 05, 2008 10:56 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Hows that compared with Indian Pilots salary wise.

Welllllll what do Indian pilots make?

Starting pay at a regional will be $18-28,000 first year in the US.
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Starlionblue
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:36 pm



Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 11):
Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Hows that compared with Indian Pilots salary wise.

Welllllll what do Indian pilots make?

Starting pay at a regional will be $18-28,000 first year in the US.

If you want to make a comparison with India you also have to set that in relation to cost of living and average wage for the country in question. 18-28k is pretty low for the US. You might well make more stacking boxes in a warehouse.

On the other hand, it's two or three times what the same box stacker makes in HK.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
citationjet
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:20 am

I know of an AA ticket agent that booked fictitious First Class reservations on an International flight. This was to guarantee that the employee's family had a seat when the First Class pax "no showed". The agent was fired.
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HAWK21M
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Sun Jan 06, 2008 2:59 am



Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 11):
Welllllll what do Indian pilots make

Around 4-5 Lakhs excluding Benifits for P1s & 2-5-3 Lakhs for P2s.[1 Lakh = Rs 1,00,000]

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
doug_or
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:18 am

Is p2 the equivalent of a first officer (copilot, right seater, etc)?

US 24K = 9,436,785.98 Rs, so I guess that puts out pay at about 1 Lakh for first year pilots. These pilots are likely to end up in an airlines junior bases, which are often junior due to their high cost of living (DC or NYC for example).
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FlyHoss
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:28 pm

I know of one pilot (for a major US legacy carrier) that was terminated for making false bookings for his planned commuting flights. On several occasions, he used the names and phone numbers of friends, but those friends (the same names, over and over) always "no-showed" for their flights, while this pilot received a seat assignment for those same flights. Eventually, the station manager became suspicious and brought Corporate Security in to investigate.

That pilot would have been a wide-body Captain by now.

Furthermore, he could have driven to his base in just a few hours if he was unable to obtain a seat assignment. His house was less than 200 miles from his crew base and an interstate highway connected the two cities.
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blueflyer
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:57 pm

In order to make this trick effective, wouldn't one have to book a large dummy party, thereby making it that much more likely to be detected if it happens repeatedly ? If a flight is so full as to have to retort to creating a no-show in order to secure a seat, isn't the risk high that fare-paying passengers would be on stand-by anyhow ?
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Starlionblue
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:34 pm



Quoting FlyHoss (Reply 16):
I know of one pilot (for a major US legacy carrier) that was terminated for making false bookings for his planned commuting flights. On several occasions, he used the names and phone numbers of friends, but those friends (the same names, over and over) always "no-showed" for their flights, while this pilot received a seat assignment for those same flights. Eventually, the station manager became suspicious and brought Corporate Security in to investigate.

That pilot would have been a wide-body Captain by now.

Furthermore, he could have driven to his base in just a few hours if he was unable to obtain a seat assignment. His house was less than 200 miles from his crew base and an interstate highway connected the two cities.

The way some people manage to screw up their lives by being lazy and/or greedy never ceases to amaze me.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
iairallie
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:15 am

Too risky and too uncertain. Most airlines overbook so there are revenue pax with higher boarding priority in line in front of you for those seats. Not to mention other non-revs with more senority.
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avt007
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:34 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):
The way some people manage to screw up their lives by being lazy and/or greedy never ceases to amaze me.

I went through trade school with a guy who was very smart, guaranteed a job before he'd graduate, and who could have had a good career in aviation as I have done.
However, he decided it'd be more interesting to steal test equipment from the school, thus ending his course short, after already investing a year in it. I wonder what he's doing now..................
As for fiddling the system, I've found that standby travel is so unpredictable that the risk seems huge, compared with the chances that it'll actually do you any good.

[Edited 2008-01-07 18:35:43]
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:33 am



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 20):
I went through trade school with a guy who was very smart, guaranteed a job before he'd graduate, and who could have had a good career in aviation as I have done.
However, he decided it'd be more interesting to steal test equipment from the school, thus ending his course short, after already investing a year in it. I wonder what he's doing now..................

I've noticed that some very smart people without a solid moral base to their character operate under the illusion that they're so smart they'll never get caught.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Bellerophon
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:19 am

Doug_Or

...US 24K = 9,436,785.98 Rs...

Possibly a slight mistake in your calculation?

  • US$ 1 = INR 39.32
  • US$ 24,000 = INR 943,680 (Western notation)

In India, where:

  • 1 Lakh = 100,000
  • 1 Crore = 10,000,000 or 100 Lakhs
  • INR 943,680 (Western notation) is written as INR 9,43,680 (Indian notation)
  • INR 943,680 (Western notation) is spoken as 9.43 Lakhs.


In most airlines, any abuse of non-revenue travel concessions is generally considered a serious disciplinary offence. Making phantom bookings, to generate last minute no-shows, would be career-ending in most airlines.


Best regards

Bellerophon
 
JGPH1A
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:00 pm



Quoting GoingAround (Thread starter):
Sounds far fetched I know, but would it be possible? Has anyone ever heard of a case of this?

Airlines take extraordinary steps to detect and prevent this type of abuse. They have systems running 24 hours a day checking bookings for fake names (Micky Mouse, George Bush etc), last minute bookings made by airline or travel agents on oversold flights, especially in refundable classes. They will catch you, have no fear.
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doug_or
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 8:06 pm



Quoting Bellerophon (Reply 22):

Ok! Ok! I must have, I must have put a decimal point in the wrong place
or something. Shit. I always do that. I always mess up some mundane
detail.



Sorry, couldn't resist. I realized the error in my conversion more than a half hour after posting (thus couldn't edit it), but I didn't realize the difference in Indian notation. Learning has occurred.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
BAE146QT
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:00 pm

:::EDIT::: I realise that I sound cynical and that it's not strictly aviation related, but I think that it't's generally true so please bear with me if you can...


Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 18):
The way some people manage to screw up their lives by being lazy and/or greedy never ceases to amaze me.

I'm not a hardcore cynic as a rule, (and I don't think I'm smart enough to preach...) however in business I have a saying; "People never fail to disappoint".

Facts:
No-one ever does anything out of altruism, respect, or just plain humanity.
Everyone will take the opportunity to give you the shaft if it will benefit them.

Caveat:
The above rules are not absolute. And if you can find someone who ignores them and will help you out, then you damned well best do the same for them. Everyone else can go hang, once they have showed their colours.

In an unpleasant world where doing the right thing can actually get you fired, that is the rule to live by. Seriously. Take it from someone who works in finance-related IT.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
I've noticed that some very smart people without a solid moral base to their character operate under the illusion that they're so smart they'll never get caught.

Most of them do get caught one way or the other, to be honest. Everyone hates them, even their spouses. THAT's being caught. And you're looking at them saying "but he earns £20k more than me! How is that fair?" remember that person has been spotted as being a weasel. You know it. They know it. Their boss knows it. And that's why they're in the job position where they can afford a Porsche, but can't do any damage to the company.

Money =/= happiness.

I'd rather drink with the guy who earns (for example) £25k and is happy with it, than the guy who earns £80k and is a complete tool who can't even lay his wife.

The point is, don't worry about the people who don't belong "up there". The salary is nothing. Be a good human being, and do your job the best you can, whatever that job is. That's what keeps planes in the air - not personalities.

I apologise for the simplistic message but it's the only thing that keeps me from taking a shotgun in to work.

[Edited 2008-01-08 14:06:45]

[Edited 2008-01-08 14:08:05]
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FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:42 pm

Delta has a zero tolerance policy against this. You WILL loose your job if your cought.
What gets measured gets done.
 
MQTmxguy
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Wed Jan 16, 2008 5:35 am



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 26):
Delta has a zero tolerance policy against this. You WILL loose your job if your cought

So do AA/AE and YX. Non-Reving is an awsome perk and I love having that privledge and working in this industry, playing russian roulette like that is not worth it. If you NEED to get somewhere, get OAL ZED tickets as backups or buy an on-line ID20.
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triple7man
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:24 am



Quoting CitationJet (Reply 13):
I know of an AA ticket agent that booked fictitious First Class reservations on an International flight. This was to guarantee that the employee's family had a seat when the First Class pax "no showed". The agent was fired.

Very tempting, but this is usually what happens as a result. Also, one might be inclined to be listed for one flight and have a reservation on another flight just in case. I tell my guests that when you non rev there are no guarantees. If you have the flexibility and like to be adventurous fine, but if not, then you need to make a reservation and don't waste my time and/or my pass allowance.
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Max Q
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Thu Feb 07, 2008 7:40 am

Not worth it.

In my opinion the best way to end your airline career will be to walk into the chief pilot's office to say goodbye on your last day and have them ask 'who are you ? '

Nothing like a low profile..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
avt007
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RE: 'Fiddling' Non-Reving System?

Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:11 pm



Quoting Triple7man (Reply 28):
Also, one might be inclined to be listed for one flight and have a reservation on another flight just in case.

In the system I deal with, this is monitored. I have received phone calls about my bookings when I accidentally (honest) had 2 PNRs out of the same airport on the same day. This has happened to colleagues as well. "They are watching.............  scared 

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