nbseer
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EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:16 pm

Tracking CO 99 EWR-HKG yesterday (Wednesday). Thought it strange that, instead of taking the most-direct "great circle route' northwest over Hudson Bay, this flight tracked several hundred miles to the northeast, over Boston, Maine, Gaspe Peninsula and Newfoundland.

I assume it eventually took a hard left turn to a more northwesterly route. But unless upper-level winds were more favorable so far east of the optimum track, seems this less-than-direct flight path would be wasting a lot of fuel.
 
IAHFLYR
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Thu Jan 03, 2008 4:36 pm



Quoting Nbseer (Thread starter):
But unless upper-level winds were more favorable so far east of the optimum track, seems this less-than-direct flight path would be wasting a lot of fuel.

Bingo, I'd bet on the winds being more favorable.

There could also have been other issues that only a CO employee can search out and provide answers to.
Any views shared are strictly my own and do not a represent those of any former employer.
 
star_world
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:11 pm

I took this flight about a month ago and it followed a similar track, before heading on a more northerly track just west of Greenland. It then continued north until just a few hundred miles away from the North Pole.

On the first few hours there was a tailwind of 100+ mph which would explain why this track was taken.
 
ADXMatt
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Thu Jan 03, 2008 5:49 pm

It's all based on the winds.....

Today it is going more direct over Montreal up to the north pole track ABERI.
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Fri Jan 04, 2008 12:17 am



Quoting ADXMatt (Reply 3):
It's all based on the winds.....

Also, the city pair must be close to 180 degrees of longitude apart otherwise the winds can not make up too much of a differential.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Fri Jan 04, 2008 7:19 pm

Anyone have a mapped-out graphic of this flight's typical path? Would sincerely appreciate such.
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vikkyvik
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Fri Jan 04, 2008 10:41 pm



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
Anyone have a mapped-out graphic of this flight's typical path? Would sincerely appreciate such.

If you go to www.flightaware.com in about 13 hours, and type in CO 99, you should see the complete flight path. Do that over a few days and I'm sure you'd get a decent idea.

Although, it does say that some portion of the flight path is outside of Flight Aware's service area....Not sure what that means.
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Starlionblue
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:13 pm

When we flew JFK-HKG it was almost straight north, passing close to the pole, then almost straight south again. Pretty pure great circle. If you think about it even going over Newfoundland isn't a huge diversion from the straight line.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 5):
Anyone have a mapped-out graphic of this flight's typical path? Would sincerely appreciate such.

Well, here's the great circle anyway:

http://gc.kls2.com/cgi-bin/gc?PATH=e...LOR=navy&MAP-STYLE=&MAP-CENTER=EWR
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zeke
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:07 am

These are the 4 polar routes I plotted in Great Circle Mapper, Polar 3 is closest to the great circle track, but we often use 1 & 2 (the lower ones) when the polar jetstream and over Russia make it worthwhile.



I made a little description of the routes in US Airways To Get A340s For New China Routes! (by EI321 Jan 2 2008 in Civil Aviation)
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3201
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 4:46 am



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 4):
Also, the city pair must be close to 180 degrees of longitude apart otherwise the winds can not make up too much of a differential.

Huh? What do you mean by that?
7 hours aint long-haul
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:58 am



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 6):
you should see the complete flight path.

I knew about the site... but how do you view the sections of the flight path that are beyond N.America??
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:21 am



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 10):

I knew about the site... but how do you view the sections of the flight path that are beyond N.America??

Hello Concordeboy. Long time no hear.

You can select various map projections through a drop down menu.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:24 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
You can select various map projections through a drop down menu.

where at? I don't see any such menu on the screen
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Starlionblue
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 12:14 pm

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 11):
You can select various map projections through a drop down menu.

where at? I don't see any such menu on the screen

To the right of the "Ranges" box is a drop down menu called "Map Style".

[Edited 2008-01-05 04:14:55]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
corey07850
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:41 pm



Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):

where at? I don't see any such menu on the screen

He thinks you are talking about the great circle website, not flightaware. You cannot see the complete track in flightaware
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 3:25 pm



Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 14):
Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 12):

where at? I don't see any such menu on the screen

He thinks you are talking about the great circle website, not flightaware. You cannot see the complete track in flightaware

I did think that. Ah well...
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ALexeu
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:33 pm

What are the procedures if all engines fail over Arctic (close to N. Pole)?

Is there any map for Europe-North America flight paths?

Cheers
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 6:54 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 16):
What are the procedures if all engines fail over Arctic (close to N. Pole)?

...tuck your head between your legs and kiss your candy ass goodbye.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
3201
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:30 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 16):
What are the procedures if all engines fail over Arctic (close to N. Pole)?

Glide towards alternate. If you don't make it, land the aircraft as best you can wherever you can. Use survival equipment -- and anything you can scavange from the aircraft, galleys, fuel tanks, etc. -- to keep people alive. Wait to be rescued.

Not really any different than any other situation where you're stuck in the middle of nowhere.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
ALexeu
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:29 pm

I can't belive, because there are hundreds of flights beatween Europe and N. America flying over Arctic.
 
3201
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 9:39 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 19):
I can't belive, because there are hundreds of flights beatween Europe and N. America flying over Arctic.

But generally "all engines fail" doesn't happen.  Smile
7 hours aint long-haul
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:42 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 16):
What are the procedures if all engines fail over Arctic (close to N. Pole)?



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 19):
I can't belive, because there are hundreds of flights beatween Europe and N. America flying over Arctic.

Believe what? That there is little chance of survival if the plane doesn't make it down reasonably intact?


When was the last time you heard of all engines failing? It's extremely rare. We have the Gimli Glider and Air Transat. That's about it in modern times for widebodies. BA volcano thing restarted engines so it doesn't count.

It's just a risk we take. And it's infinitesimally small.


Most of the 1000+ flights between N.America and Europe every day don't go further north than southern Greenland. Still cold and desolate enough of course.  Wink
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Mir
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sun Jan 06, 2008 3:01 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
When was the last time you heard of all engines failing? It's extremely rare. We have the Gimli Glider and Air Transat.

And neither of those were technically engine failures - there was nothing wrong with the engines.

-Mir
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Starlionblue
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sun Jan 06, 2008 12:41 pm



Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 21):
When was the last time you heard of all engines failing? It's extremely rare. We have the Gimli Glider and Air Transat.

And neither of those were technically engine failures - there was nothing wrong with the engines.

Very true. The end result is the same of course. Big grin
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ALexeu
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Sun Jan 06, 2008 5:13 pm

What was the last time that transatlantic flight had single engine failure? It's no big deal, but they still have to make an emergency landing.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:02 am



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 24):
What was the last time that transatlantic flight had single engine failure? It's no big deal, but they still have to make an emergency landing.

Only if it's a twin. If it's a triplet or quad it's not an emergency landing.
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sunrisevalley
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:09 am



Quoting 3201 (Reply 9):
Huh? What do you mean by that?

I didn' t put that very well. Sorry! The point I am trying to make is where you have city pairs such as EWR/JFK- HKG
that are very close to 180 degrees apart the route might be flown the longer distance because the wind strength more than offsets that distance.
This assumes that there are appropriate air routes of course.
It is useful to study the wind maps on www.aviationweather.govt and to plot the heading across the wind directions. Generally the heading EWR-HKG is in the 350 to 360 degree range and the winds in the 250 to 290 degree range. With winds from the west of 50k such a combination translates into a change in ground speed of plus to minus 10 to 15K.
 
3201
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:13 am



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 26):
I didn' t put that very well. Sorry! The point I am trying to make is where you have city pairs such as EWR/JFK- HKG
that are very close to 180 degrees apart the route might be flown the longer distance because the wind strength more than offsets that distance.

I guess what bothers me is the implication that on other citypairs the wind-optimal routes are close to great circle. Obviously the longer the distance, the stronger the effect may be, but it doesn't need to be a very long flight for the wind-optimal route to be pretty far off the great circle, and for the routes in one direction to be very different than the ones in the other direction. For example, on any given day (especially in winter) it's common to see flights between the US West Coast and Europe crossing the US/Canada border over Washington State in one direction and over Minnesota or Wisconsin in the other direction.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:36 am



Quoting 3201 (Reply 27):
For example, on any given day (especially in winter) it's common to see flights between the US West Coast and Europe crossing the US/Canada border over Washington State in one direction and over Minnesota or Wisconsin in the other direction.

So true ! So far as I can tell the further west the crossing of the U.S.- Canada border, the further north the flight goes. No doubt the winds on the European end are part of the influence. Seems to me there are many, many pieces of information that come into play and the resultant track could be one of many each only slightly different than the other. No doubt altitude choices and the time of departure can make a significant difference between lets say NZ1 that departed LHR-LAX
at 2.00pm and VS flying the same route but an hour later. It is fascinating to compare the data on Flightstats or Flightaware for flights flying the same route but an hour or less apart.
 
3201
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:58 am



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 28):
No doubt altitude choices and the time of departure can make a significant difference between lets say NZ1 that departed LHR-LAX
at 2.00pm and VS flying the same route but an hour later.

Altitudes should be optimized as well. From what I've seen on FlightAware, VS tends to be off the consensus from everyone else, probably because they still use older flight planning software (being phased out sometime this year). The most likely reasons for differences between routes flown on these city pairs by different airlines are (1) different flight planning software, (2) different wind prediction models (US NWS vs. UK Met Office), (3) different balance between minimum fuel/time and minimizing overflight of Canada (expensive overflight charges) based on different fuel prices at origin, cost of crew and maintenance, etc.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:10 am



Quoting SunriseValley (Reply 28):
So true ! So far as I can tell the further west the crossing of the U.S.- Canada border, the further north the flight goes.

Isn't that just a geographical thing? I mean the further west the destination or origin in the US, the further north the flight should go to follow the great circle route.

The jetstream goes more or less from Canada across Greenland, Iceland and peters out in the North Sea. So eastbound flights from the East Coast follow that path. Westbound flights want to avoid the jetstream, so they travel much further south.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
3201
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:53 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 30):
The jetstream goes more or less from Canada across Greenland, Iceland and peters out in the North Sea. So eastbound flights from the East Coast follow that path. Westbound flights want to avoid the jetstream, so they travel much further south.

The routes do vary from day to day -- not only based on the detailed location of the jet, but also the strength.
7 hours aint long-haul
 
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zeke
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:53 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 30):
The jetstream goes more or less from Canada across Greenland, Iceland and peters out in the North Sea. So eastbound flights from the East Coast follow that path. Westbound flights want to avoid the jetstream, so they travel much further south.

I have often done the trip "eastbound" in both directions.

Lower latitudes from Asia to the US to take advantage of the strong jetstreams east of Japan, and the along Polar 1/2 to take advantage of the Polar Jetstream and winds associated with large scale predominate pressure systems over Russia.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
ALexeu
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:22 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 25):
Only if it's a twin. If it's a triplet or quad it's not an emergency landing.

What are diverting airports for those flights? I can think of Kangerlussuaq only for flights overflying Arctic.

I can't think of any diverting airport for JNB-SYD and Perth which are close to Antarctica.
 
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zeke
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:16 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 33):
What are diverting airports for those flights? I can think of Kangerlussuaq only for flights overflying Arctic.

KEF, YEG, YOD, YUL, YWG, YVR, YYZ, YYR, KUO, BOO, FAI, ANC, ICN, YKS, KHV, PKC, BTK, IKT, MMK, KJA, OVB, SVO, PEK, ULN, PVG, HRB, SFJ, THU, YFB, YYQ, YZF, LKL, PYJ, IKS, DYR, GDX, PWE, MMK, KJA, HTG, NSK, SLY

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Starlionblue
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:19 pm



Quoting AlexEU (Reply 33):
What are diverting airports for those flights? I can think of Kangerlussuaq only for flights overflying Arctic.

I can't think of any diverting airport for JNB-SYD and Perth which are close to Antarctica.

Bear in mind that diverting airports don't have to be dotted around quite everywhere. The requirement for ETOPS is to be able to reach on in 120 minutes, 137 minutes or even 180 minutes on one engine. Even at the slower speeds in question, that's quite a distance. The airport doesn't have to be anywhere near gliding distance.
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OldAeroGuy
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RE: EWR-HKG Flight Path Question

Mon Jan 07, 2008 5:52 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 34):
Quoting AlexEU (Reply 33):
What are diverting airports for those flights? I can think of Kangerlussuaq only for flights overflying Arctic.

KEF, YEG, YOD, YUL, YWG, YVR, YYZ, YYR, KUO, BOO, FAI, ANC, ICN, YKS, KHV, PKC, BTK, IKT, MMK, KJA, OVB, SVO, PEK, ULN, PVG, HRB, SFJ, THU, YFB, YYQ, YZF, LKL, PYJ, IKS, DYR, GDX, PWE, MMK, KJA, HTG, NSK, SLY

Don't forget LYR.
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