flyvabb
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HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:06 pm


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First i would like to congratulate nitin on finally getting a picture from Chandigarh on this forum!!

Secondly i want to ask a question about Heads Up Display, if you notice the top right corner of this pic, this Gulfstream has a HUD, How come its only located on the Captains side.

Further, do any other commercial airliners come with HUD? What is the significance of such an option?

And lastly are there any regional airlines operating Gulfstream aircraft:?

Regards
VABB
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EMBQA
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:19 pm



Quoting Flyvabb (Thread starter):

Further, do any other commercial airliners come with HUD?

Yes... several.... jetBlue has them in their E190...... Alaska has or is adding them to their B737.... I think Southwest is as well...and I'm sure there are many many more
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Stitch
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:20 pm



Quoting Flyvabb (Thread starter):
Further, do any other commercial airliners come with HUD? What is the significance of such an option?

At least a few do, like some AS 737s. The advantage is that in tricky approaches (either terrain or weather), the pilot's eyes are outside the cockpit.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:23 pm



Quoting Flyvabb (Thread starter):
Secondly i want to ask a question about Heads Up Display, if you notice the top right corner of this pic, this Gulfstream has a HUD, How come its only located on the Captains side.

Probably expense...it's typically an option, and an expensive one. Since only one pilot is actually flying, you can probably live with one HUD most of the time.

Quoting Flyvabb (Thread starter):

Further, do any other commercial airliners come with HUD? What is the significance of such an option?

It's an option on the 737 now. Not sure about other current Boeing or Airbus production. Dual HUD's will be standard on the 787. I'm not a pilot, but as I understand the benefit is it allows the pilot to keep his eyes out the window while still getting crucial info (the HUD basically duplicates the PFD). Among other things, I believe this allows you to have lower minimums.

Tom.
 
Pihero
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:52 pm



Quoting Flyvabb (Thread starter):
Further, do any other commercial airliners come with HUD? What is the significance of such an option?

For a long time, it has been an option.
Air Inter, as far back as the late sixties had their Caravelle / Mercure aircraft equipped with one.
When they received their A320s, they had them fitted , too. Sadly,they were removed a few years ago as only the Orly-based airplanes had them and it was a bugger in terms of fleet training.
Here are the pics, first of a deployed HUD :

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and then of a stored one :

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There were three main uses :

  • In visual flight, it used to allow for a very accurate flight path control, especially useful in mountainous terrain, haze, over the sea approaches.
  • On an LVP approach, it allows the captain to monitor the approach status / conditions while looking outside
  • On a LVP takeoff, allows a virtual vision of the runway, therefore getting very low minima.


Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 3):
(the HUD basically duplicates the PFD).

Not quite. All HUD's base their main information on the actual airplane energy, here translated into the *flight path vector* symbol....Makes for very stable approaches as you just *place* the *bird* on the runway markers.
The symbology changes on an ILS approach, on which one can visualize the ILS windows, or during takeoff where the centerline is materialised.
What is interesting is that HUDs seem to have regained a lot of favour from the bean counters : B^ having them allows crews to go down to CatIII manual flying, costing less than a redundant A/P set.
All new types :787s, 380s and 350s will have them, either as an option of as a basic equipment ( Jury is still out for the 350 where it seems to be part of the basic package).
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Skyweasy82
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:53 pm

JAZZ has them on their CRJ's
 
flyvabb
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:27 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):

Yes... several.... jetBlue has them in their E190...... Alaska has or is adding them to their B737.... I think Southwest is as well...and I'm sure there are many many more



Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
At least a few do, like some AS 737s. The advantage is that in tricky approaches (either terrain or weather), the pilot's eyes are outside the cockpit.

So its a very selective option? Depending on routes flown by a particular airline? I ahve gathers from Justplanes.com that alaska flies to various unusual airports. Is that a reason?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 4):
For a long time, it has been an option.
Air Inter, as far back as the late sixties had their Caravelle / Mercure aircraft equipped with one.
When they received their A320s, they had them fitted , too. Sadly,they were removed a few years ago as only the Orly-based airplanes had them and it was a bugger in terms of fleet training.

Wow that interesting, i never knew that!

Quoting Pihero (Reply 4):
80s and 350s will have them, either as an option of as a basic equipment ( Jury is still out for the 350 where it seems to be part of the basic package).

I havent seen one in the A380 till now! Can anyoen confirm if its an option or a standard feature?

Personally i feel its a technology transferred from airforce fighters, can that be a right assumption?
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AirframeAS
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:27 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
Alaska has or is adding them to their B737

AS has them on ALL of their 737's. Their M83's don't have them. WN has them on all of their 737's, IIRC. The idea of the HUD is to help keep the pilots eyes on the final approach and the instruments at the same time rather than going without the HUD and the pilot would have to look at the approach and then look down at the intruments then look up at the approach and repeat. HUD's eliminate that practice.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
jkudall
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:29 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 1):
I think Southwest is as well

WN has them on at least some (maybe all?) NG 737's and some older model 737's.

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[Edited 2008-01-08 14:30:43]
 
tdscanuck
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:45 pm



Quoting Flyvabb (Reply 6):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
At least a few do, like some AS 737s. The advantage is that in tricky approaches (either terrain or weather), the pilot's eyes are outside the cockpit.

So its a very selective option? Depending on routes flown by a particular airline? I ahve gathers from Justplanes.com that alaska flies to various unusual airports. Is that a reason?

Alaska flies in some horrible weather. The improved ability to fly in low visibility, apparently, significantly decreases the number of flights they have to cancel or divert because of weather.

Quoting Flyvabb (Reply 6):

Personally i feel its a technology transferred from airforce fighters, can that be a right assumption?

Yep.

Tom.
 
2H4
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:53 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
The idea of the HUD is to help keep the pilots eyes on the final approach and the instruments at the same time rather than going without the HUD and the pilot would have to look at the approach and then look down at the intruments then look up at the approach and repeat. HUD's eliminate that practice.

...And they make it soooooo easy to fly a precise approach down to minimums. Simply keep a small circle centered in a larger circle, and you'll fly a perfect approach.

2H4
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KensukeAida
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Tue Jan 08, 2008 11:04 pm



Quoting Jkudall (Reply 8):

WN has them on at least some (maybe all?) NG 737's and some older model 737's.

I believe they have them on all. They first got them on the ex-Morris 733s, liked them a lot, and then retrofitted them to their whole fleet (and are now having them installed on 73Gs from the factory).

- John
 
corey07850
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:08 am

This should be an add-on to the G-IV as I don't believe it came as on option from the factory that way. The G450 and 550 have it as an option, if not standard. There are some models that will display just PFD/nav info, while others like the ones on new Global's integrate an EVS camera to display a synthetic infrared view of the terrain on the HUD as well.

Quoting Flyvabb (Thread starter):

And lastly are there any regional airlines operating Gulfstream aircraft:?

Absolutely not
 
2H4
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:11 am



Quoting Flyvabb (Thread starter):
And lastly are there any regional airlines operating Gulfstream aircraft:?



Quoting Corey07850 (Reply 12):
Absolutely not

There were, though:


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Pity they're not anymore.

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Ceph
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 8:27 am

I'm I'm not wrong its offered as an option on the A380.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:31 pm

Delta has them on a lot of their 737's. I also know that it is an option from the CR2-CR9.
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HAWK21M
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:39 pm


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Watching the Instruments as well as Visual viewing of the Exterior.

Anyone aware of the Manufacturers for the Type HUD approved on the B737s.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
2H4
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 4:42 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Anyone aware of the Manufacturers for the Type HUD approved on the B737s.

Rockwell Collins is one.

2H4
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HAWK21M
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:11 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 17):
Rockwell Collins is one.

http://www.rockwellcollins.com/produ...cs/displays1/cockpit-displays/HUD/
Thanks.The Link does not state B737,so I was wondering.
regds
MEL
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AAR90
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:14 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Anyone aware of the Manufacturers for the Type HUD approved on the B737s.

Back when I transitioned to the 738, AA published Marconi as the manufacturer of its HUDs. The supplier has changed names numerous times since then and I don't know who claims that title today.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 10):
...And they make it soooooo easy to fly a precise approach down to minimums. Simply keep a small circle centered in a larger circle, and you'll fly a perfect approach.

Actually, you have to keep the larger circle (airplane symbol really) around the smaller circle (flight director symbol). And it is not "soooooo easy" as it looks. The display is so "expanded" that virtually any deviation looks large to the pilot and he will be working his a** off while the plane doesn't appear to be moving at all the those not flying --it is a common teaching technique to show new FO's what the CA was doing as they essentially see no deviations the entire approach. It also takes some getting used to as the fancy "trend vectors" often don't match trend directions (again, due to the greatly expanded displays). Still... a very good tool indeed. And yes, AA's experience is that the 737s CAT-III HUD is way cheaper to purchase and maintain than a comparable CAT-III autopilot system --and it was proven to be more accurate as well.  Wink
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2H4
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 5:28 pm



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 19):
Actually, you have to keep the larger circle (airplane symbol really) around the smaller circle (flight director symbol). And it is not "soooooo easy" as it looks.

Ah, my mistake. My impression of the overall ease of use was based on the fact that a monkey like myself could successfully fly such a precise approach through weather in the sim.  Wink

2H4
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AAR90
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:05 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20):
My impression of the overall ease of use was based on the fact that a monkey like myself could successfully fly such a precise approach through weather in the sim.

Oh, well with "that" definition... you are correct.  Wink When AA began initial testing to determine if it wanted HUD or CAT-III for its 738s, some of the secretaries at the school-house were brought to the sim to fly CAT-III HUD approaches. They more often than not successfully landed the plane. Stopping was another matter though.  duck 
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boeing767mech
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 10:17 pm



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 19):
Still... a very good tool indeed. And yes, AA's experience is that the 737s CAT-III HUD is way cheaper to purchase and maintain than a comparable CAT-III autopilot system --and it was proven to be more accurate as well.

AAR90

And it is great for hitting your head on while getting into the pilots seat (the joy of bieng a 6'4" mechanic). Since we don't see the 738 here. Have they fixed the problems of MU failures due to overheating?

David
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AAR90
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:51 am



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 22):
And it is great for hitting your head on while getting into the pilots seat (the joy of bieng a 6'4" mechanic).

I can only imagine. Its only taken me 7+ years, but I only hit my head once or twice a year now.  conehead 

Quote:
Have they fixed the problems of MU failures due to overheating?

Yes... a few years ago. Now I'll see a "system fail" msg two-three times per year. I still see OHU's overheating though that is usually caused by pilots leaving the combiner down (and the system "on") between flights --even though the checklist requires the combiner to be "stowed" after parking.  cry 
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rampkontroler
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:40 am

Horizon had/has them in their Dash 8 -200's which are heading over on lease to Commutair. So I guess you could say Commutair has HUD's too:

http://www.opshots.net/gallery/displayimage.php?pos=-2964
 
matt2242
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:31 am

Qantas and some of their B738s use a HUD system as well.

Matt
 
Tornado82
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 4:55 am

For AAR90 and other pilots... how often are the HUD's used? Every moment of every flight? Just approaches? Just in IMC? Varies by pilot?

I'm just thinking that in a nice clear/calm/P6SM visual approach a HUD would almost be a hinderance rather than an aid.

Thanks.
 
AAR90
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:32 am



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 26):
For AAR90 and other pilots... how often are the HUD's used? Every moment of every flight? Just approaches? Just in IMC? Varies by pilot?

If working, AA requires its use for EVERY takeoff and EVERY landing. Primary stated reason is to prevent tailstrikes, but it is just a good source of critical information in the line-of-sight of the Captain.

Quote:
I'm just thinking that in a nice clear/calm/P6SM visual approach a HUD would almost be a hinderance rather than an aid.

Once you get used to it, it is quicker/easier to see all the critical flight instrumentation than looking inside at the instrument panel. After all these years, I am still not comfortable with the "declutter" mode (numerical values instead of graphical representations). That requires additional mental comprehension vs. graphical representations are instantly recognizable... at least to me.
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HAWK21M
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:50 am



Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 22):
Have they fixed the problems of MU failures due to overheating

Whats the Scheuled Maintenance on the Unit like?

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 27):
Primary stated reason is to prevent tailstrikes

Interesting.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
boeing767mech
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:25 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 28):
Quoting Boeing767mech (Reply 22):
Have they fixed the problems of MU failures due to overheating

Whats the Scheuled Maintenance on the Unit like?

the maintenance program on the HUD is, it fails troubleshoot and repair it. I don't know of any scheduled checks on the unit, Unless it is done at B check or higher. I don't think you have the problems of burning the screen like the CRT's on the 747,757,and 767.

David
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Tornado82
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 27):
If working, AA requires its use for EVERY takeoff and EVERY landing. Primary stated reason is to prevent tailstrikes, but it is just a good source of critical information in the line-of-sight of the Captain.

Interesting. Thanks for the info. Is there one on the FO side too for when the FO is the PF?
 
avt007
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 12:03 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 28):
Whats the Scheduled Maintenance on the Unit like?

The only maintenance on the HGS2100 and 4200 is cleaning the combiner glass, projector lens, ambient light sensor, and the alignment detector. Basically a couple minutes with some glass cleaner.

A picky note here- modern systems are HGS, Headup Guidance systems. The difference is that HGS is independent of the PDF. It takes in all the aircraft sensor data and computes it by itself and generates the displays and flight guidance cues.
Interesting to note that the C130 J has no panel mounted PDFs. The dual HGS are the primary flight instruments for the aircraft.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:28 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 16):
Anyone aware of the Manufacturers for the Type HUD approved on the B737s.

Shoot, I totally forgot who made ours at AS. I think it was Honeywell, but I could totally be wrong. I just don't remember.

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 28):
Quoting AAR90 (Reply 27):
Primary stated reason is to prevent tailstrikes

Interesting.

 checkmark  Very, very interesting indeed!

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 28):
Whats the Scheuled Maintenance on the Unit like?

Our Avionics department were the ones resonsible for the HUD's at AS. We didn't touch those in the C-D checks.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
2H4
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:36 am



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 31):
PDF



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 31):
PDFs

You mean PFDs, right?

2H4
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HAWK21M
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:26 am



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 31):
The only maintenance on the HGS2100 and 4200 is cleaning the combiner glass, projector lens, ambient light sensor, and the alignment detector. Basically a couple minutes with some glass cleaner.

How long would a replacement take in terms of Man-hrs?

regds
MEL.
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HAWK21M
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:28 am



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 31):
The only maintenance on the HGS2100 and 4200 is cleaning the combiner glass, projector lens, ambient light sensor, and the alignment detector. Basically a couple minutes with some glass cleaner.

How long would a replacement take in terms of Man-hrs?

regds
MEL.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Pihero
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:46 pm



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 27):
If working, AA requires its use for EVERY takeoff and EVERY landing. Primary stated reason is to prevent tailstrikes,

I'm curious : do you rotate at T/O using the HUD ? Because on those I've seen, the expanded - a lot more than on the PFD - attitude scale makes it in this situation more difficult to judge the amount of attitude you'd require.
Normally, at "Rotate ! ", one would look down to the classic displays first.
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avt007
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 12:57 am

PDF- Oops, been spending too much time on the computer lately........

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 35):
How long would a replacement take in terms of Man-hrs?

For the computers, and control panel, basically a few minutes. For the projector, or the combiner, as the display unit is called, no more than one hour for each, including paperwork. They are essentially a few bolts and a cannon plug. No alignment is required, as it is all done during the installation process. Testing is very quick, no tools required, no test equipment, essentially a BITE process. The MTBF is excellent as well, it's very reliable.
 
2H4
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:19 am



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 37):
PDF- Oops, been spending too much time on the computer lately........

Just making sure Adobe isn't meddling in the affairs of the avionics industry.  Wink

2H4
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Mir
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:36 am

TZ had them on their 738s (captain's side only IIRC). They still might. Interestingly, the pilot said that the attachements aren't as secure as he'd like, which makes the HUD rattle around a bit in gusty/turbulent conditions, making it hard to read accurately, so he didn't use it in those conditions.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 3):
Among other things, I believe this allows you to have lower minimums.

B6 can do CatIIIa approaches by hand with the HUD in its 190s. Or, it will be able to once it gets the certification for it - I don't think the E190 is ready yet.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 38):
Just making sure Adobe isn't meddling in the affairs of the avionics industry.

Eventually you'll be able to print out PDFs of approach plates right from the cockpit.  Smile

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AAR90
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 5:33 am



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 30):
Is there one on the FO side too for when the FO is the PF?

Just the CA's side. AA's primary reason for installing the HUD was for CAT-III capability. In those situations, the CA will be the one landing the plane.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 36):
I'm curious : do you rotate at T/O using the HUD ?

Not me, but it is directly in my field of view so it is easy to see the critical flight information.

Quote:
...more difficult to judge the amount of attitude you'd require.

The HUD has a TO/GA Target Pitch Line display that presents itself when the TOGA is pushed. Upon rotate, if you place the acft symbol between the gap in the Target Pitch Line will give you the proper rotation angle, then climb deck angles, headings or ground tracks. Essentially becomes the only dashed line you look for in the HUD. Instrumentation is not one of my primary scans during this critical phase of flight, but with the HUD, the critical information is available directly in my field of view. Using that info has become second nature now (wonder how I flew on/off ships without it; but now understand why those with HUDs claimed emergency status when it wasn't working). The HUD also has a (potential) TAILSTRIKE warning system built in, but I haven't seen it activate except in the simulators.  bouncy 
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Pihero
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 9:54 am

AAR90
Thanks.I hadn't heard of that TOGA setting.

Cheers.
Contrail designer
 
AAR90
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:48 pm



Quoting Pihero (Reply 41):
Thanks.I hadn't heard of that TOGA setting.

Shown HERE.
#8 is the Target Pitch Line.
#9 is the AOA indicator
#10 is the runway centerline.
Certified for as low as 300RVR for takeoffs.
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Pihero
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:00 am



Quoting AAR90 (Reply 42):
Certified for as low as 300RVR for takeoffs.

Is it because of the HUD limitations or for some ops reasons, because AF / IT used it for 75 m RVR takeoffs.
Contrail designer
 
mark5388916
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:11 am

FAA vs JAA Rules perhaps?
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DeltaGuy
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Thu Mar 20, 2008 3:05 am

Moldy oldy thread, but I was going through my G-IV books today in prep for another trip to Flight Safety, and I saw that the HUD system was indeed an option with the G-IV, according to my manuals for the SPZ-8400 avionics package by Honeywell. It says there is provisions for the optional Honeywell 2020 HUD.

Abiet, this is a generation before the PlaneView G450 and the standard HUD with all of the toys. Still a very capable system either way you look at it.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
9VSIO
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RE: HUD In Commercial Aircraft (pic)?!?

Sat Mar 22, 2008 2:07 pm

Hmmm, if you had both autoland and HUD installed..which would you rather use?
Me: (Lining up on final) I shall now select an aiming point. || Instructor: Well, I hope it's the runway...

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