Happy-flier
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Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:59 pm

The Beriev amphibious jets are truly unique aircraft - and they represent a genre that is, for all intents and purposes, nonexistent in the West today.

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Is there any reason why this genre - jet-powered amphibious transports, whether for cargo or passengers - could not be popularized across much of North America? I'm thinking that this would be an ideal type of aircraft for quickly linking lakeside communities: there's no need to build full-fledged airports per se. Also, with the advent of composite materials, I'm sure that aircraft like the Beriev and any potential extensions of the general concept can be built so as to largely resist water-based corrosion.

Does anyone foresee a potential future expansion of the market for jet-powered amphibs, not as fire-fighting aircraft, but as transports?

Another aspect of this design that probably isn't taken into account much is its inherent attractiveness for overwater operations in general: If you have a dual engine failure, you can actually land the aircraft in a way that its design supports - never mind "ditching", which has less attractive connotations . . . Surely, this fact should be weighed against the inherent drag disincentives of the design.
May the wind be always at your back . . . except during takeoff & landing.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:26 pm

And there's probably a type of system that could allow visibility at night for landings...

Andrea Kent
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 12:45 am

There are so many airports in the US. And so many cars and roads. The infrastructure is there. That makes it economically unattractive.

Quoting Happy-flier (Thread starter):

Another aspect of this design that probably isn't taken into account much is its inherent attractiveness for overwater operations in general: If you have a dual engine failure, you can actually land the aircraft in a way that its design supports - never mind "ditching", which has less attractive connotations . . . Surely, this fact should be weighed against the inherent drag disincentives of the design.

It's an attractive idea. Engine failure, land on the water. But in practice it has issues. The drag penalties are pretty bad. Measured against the very small probability of dual engine failure it's just not worth it.

Also if you over the open sea, landing an amphib is far from easy. They do require pretty calm waters.
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Blackbird
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:12 am

What contributes to the drag penalties?

Andrea Kent
 
Soku39
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:52 am



Quoting Blackbird (Reply 3):
What contributes to the drag penalties?

The the shape used for the keel of a boat (that many flying planes use for the bottom of the fuesalage, think Grumman Goose or Widgeon) is far less aerodynamic, than the round tube shape of your normal jetliner. A keel is not completely smooth and there are more places for the air to be disturbed than on a flat tube, and as mentioned the probability of both engines conking out over smooth, landable, and navagable water is next to nothing.
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thegeek
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:53 am

Hate to be a party pooper, but I think the real question is why anyone would build a jet powered flying boat. Turboprop power results in much better field performance, generally, and that's where flying boats are weak. Also, with higher drag the advantage of flying another 100kts or so faster is a lot less.
 
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:33 pm

These things can only reliably land in calm seas (so oceanfront is usually out) in larger bodies of water. The number of places that could use these is probably very limited.

If the place is remote enough not to have a road, then there probably isn't a need for taking large numbers of people or cargo. At some point a road becomes a practical alternative. A few km of one lane dirt road for trucks or cars isn't that expensive.

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):

It's an attractive idea. Engine failure, land on the water. But in practice it has issues. The drag penalties are pretty bad. Measured against the very small probability of dual engine failure it's just not worth it.

I'd imagine there are weight penalties too, as the fuselage has to be reinforced for water landings. You don't save the weight of the landing gear, as you still generally keep those.

Quoting Happy-flier (Thread starter):

Another aspect of this design that probably isn't taken into account much is its inherent attractiveness for overwater operations in general: If you have a dual engine failure, you can actually land the aircraft in a way that its design supports - never mind "ditching", which has less attractive connotations . . . Surely, this fact should be weighed against the inherent drag disincentives of the design.

It happens, but how often would this be helpful? Most of the fuel starvation, etc. incidents would probably not have ended better (the Ethiopian, maybe).

Ditching in rough seas, even in one of these things, is probably a very bad idea.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:58 pm

Such a plane could have a good military use as some kind of aphibious assault craft.

Andrea Kent
 
dhhornet
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:53 am

It is also amphibious so the emergency issues are no different to any other aircraft.

There must be a pax or cargo market for it in places like the Med, Alaska,Canada, Scandinavia etc... It's versatility must be a bonus?

What is like for getting spares and support for this aircraft. Probably like most others from this part of the world - poor!

Still a fine aircraft and I for one would love to fly on it to some greek Island. One day maybe?

Why no are CL215/415s in regular passinger service?
 
Happy-flier
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:25 am



Quoting Analog (Reply 6):
Ditching in rough seas, even in one of these things, is probably a very bad idea.

It's interesting how often this point has come up. I admit my ignorance ... but how large, in terms of distance from crest to trough, do waves on the open ocean typically get? And - more importantly - while a headwind landing smack dab onto a big ocean wave wouldn't be a good idea, what about landing crosswind, that is to say, parallel to, or lengthwise, along a wave?

It's all fanciful speculation at this point, but I am curious how practical the ideas actually are.

Thanks.
May the wind be always at your back . . . except during takeoff & landing.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:42 am

Well, Russia is a huge country, with population centers often not connected by roads or railways (especially in Siberia). Big rivers and lakes exist though. Permafrost makes it hard to build runways, but often the isolated towns are small. The distances are so big that it will be better to use a jet instead of a turboprop due to higher cruising speed.
I can imagine a market though in countries which consist of many islands, like the Philippines, Indonesia or the South Pacific (where there exist sheltered baysand lagoons, but not enough land space to build an airport).

Jan
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Starlionblue
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 8:30 am



Quoting Happy-flier (Reply 9):
It's interesting how often this point has come up. I admit my ignorance ... but how large, in terms of distance from crest to trough, do waves on the open ocean typically get?

3-5 meters in not unusual at all.

Quoting Happy-flier (Reply 9):
And - more importantly - while a headwind landing smack dab onto a big ocean wave wouldn't be a good idea, what about landing crosswind, that is to say, parallel to, or lengthwise, along a wave?

The waves aren't far enough apart for that I think. I don't think there's a neat solution unfortunately.
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Alessandro
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:09 pm

Because there´s no money in it. Easy as that, none Be-210 is operating today.
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Viscount724
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RE: Why No Beriev-style Jet Amphibs In The West?

Sat Jan 12, 2008 3:10 am



Quoting Dhhornet (Reply 8):
Why no are CL215/415s in regular passinger service?

If not mistaken they were designed for their primary water-bomber role. I doubt their economics as passneger aircraft would be very competitive.

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