cloudy
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:23 pm

Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 16, 2008 3:34 am

The military is using fewer and more expensive aircraft, so even in periods of high defense spending fewer military pilots are trained now. There are a lot fewer fully licenced general aviation pilots nowdays, and becoming a transport pilot the civilian way is so arduous that it is comparable to the process of becomming a major league baseball player . Except professional baseball players finally do get the big bucks in the end, IF they make the major leagues. A mainline airline pilot, however, is rewarded only with the first reasonable wages in his entire working life. Plus, he has to travel all the time and has little job security.

Cold war trained pilots will have to retire eventually. Every year there is less glamour in flying, especially commercial flying. Someday the industry will have to pay what other industries pay for people with very high responsibility and skill requirements - yet labor costs are a big burden to airlines even as they are. Where in the heck will the airline industry get the qualified pilots it needs 20-30 years from now?
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:28 am



Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
Where in the heck will the airline industry get the qualified pilots it needs 20-30 years from now?

Start, implement and manage a meaningful cadet scheme. It works for European / Asian majors. Should work in the US, too.
As a matter of fact, the US seems to be the only place where pilots are not needed at the moment. Must be due to the number of chapter 11 instances and cost-cutting.
In the rest of the world, a qualified pilot basically writes his/her own ticket.
A friend of mine went a month ago on a well-known aviation magazine job research site. He got a proposition half an hour after he sent his resume. He's now dealing with four or five prospects and has difficulty making a choice...True !
Any one with a jet airliner type-rating shouldn't be out of a job, simple as that.
Of course, for you guys the other side of the pond, that means expat life, more so than for us. Some of the countries could be a challenge : India, Eastern Europe,the Far-East, the Gulf... Are you ready for it ?

Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
Every year there is less glamour in flying, especially commercial flying. Someday the industry will have to pay what other industries pay for people with very high responsibility and skill requirements - yet labor costs are a big burden to airlines even as they are

With such an attitude, I don't think flying is really what you are interested in. I enjoy mine and wake up at 04.00 with a smile on my face. But that's just me. And money isn't so bad, even if I can't compare it with a major league base-ball player's.
Look outside, there are some really bright spots of light !

Regards.
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Thu Jan 17, 2008 2:46 am

I think a more optimistic & realistic approach is needed.
Speaking from out here.Aviation is on the upswing & Pilot shortage is a lot.Currently a lot of EXPATS are flying in the country.the shortage will be around for 5-6 yrs until the freshers qualify.
But with Expansion still on with Airlines it may be longer.
The money is good too out here & pilots from other countries should not find the Accomodation,Language & lifestyle difficult.
The perks & benifits with regular leave to visit home is good too.Although staying with the Family is a different thing altogether,but then in a job,a compromise is needed to fulfill ones duty.

As mentioned most Airlines are taking in youngsters,qualified & training them up the ladder.Earlier IAF pilots used to join commercial airlines after training but the GOI regulated that a bond of 20 yrs was in place,which made shifting tough.There are quite a few defence pilots joining commercial airlines out here though,but getting youngsters up the ladder is the best way.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
QFA380
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:38 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:46 am



Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):
Some of the countries could be a challenge : India, Eastern Europe,the Far-East, the Gulf... Are you ready for it ?

Just because the airline is based somewhere doesn't mean a crew member must live in that city. For example an EK A345 pilot could, fly SYD-DXB-EWR-DXB-SYD and have his entire months flying done in a week or two. They're still hiring outside of their bases.
 
pilotpip
Posts: 2820
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2003 3:26 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:07 am

There is no shortage of people willing to shell out thousands of dollars for the chance to fly a big shiny jet. If there weren't, the regionals wouldn't be able to get away with the first year pay that they have. Places like Allatps would go out of business and the regionals would fold. Once the supply of pilots willing to work for this rate dries up (never will until "Topgun" is outlawed) the starting wages will go up.

The "glamor" of this job leaves pretty quickly. However I dare you to find an office with a better view.
DMI
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:30 am



Quoting QFA380 (Reply 3):
Just because the airline is based somewhere doesn't mean a crew member must live in that city.

Quite right, but I was thinking more of the smaller types fit for pilots beginning their careers : ATRs,
s,737s...
There are bound to be some cultural changes, away from one's usual social environment.
That said, expat life can be great, provided one makes the effort of coming out of one's shell. (Personal experience talking).
Contrail designer
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:38 am



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 4):
Once the supply of pilots willing to work for this rate dries up (never will until "Topgun" is outlawed) the starting wages will go up.

You are talking, again, only of the US.
Please, just take a look at the flightglobal job section, then at the training offered...
There are a lot of positions where a pilot of some experience would find flying rewarding.
If a type-rating is considered, compare its cost to the salaries offered and you'll find out that it should be paid back in a rather short time.
As I said earlier, expat life is not for everybody (although, one also can see the trend for more demand in the EU), but it's a life choice. Why starve ( ? ) at home when I could find a good life abroad ?
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:56 am

What I don't understand is why more US pilots don't migrate overseas. I understand not everyone wants to or can do it, but it seems to me as if there should be more working abroad, especially among the younger ones. Move abroad, make more, fly a mainline plane, have bigger job security. Compare that to working the crap routes at some US regional on the verge of collapse. I don't get it.


Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):
Of course, for you guys the other side of the pond, that means expat life, more so than for us. Some of the countries could be a challenge : India, Eastern Europe,the Far-East, the Gulf... Are you ready for it ?



Quoting Pihero (Reply 5):
That said, expat life can be great, provided one makes the effort of coming out of one's shell. (Personal experience talking).

I have been an expat for 7 years now and I am quite happy with my self-imposed exile. I have lived in California, London, Connecticut and now Hong Kong. As places to live go, you can do much worse than a Far Eastern metropolis.

It is not for everyone, of course. But I have found that if you stay open and positive it tends to work out well. Also, some form of cross cultural training is very useful. Adding to that, as a pilot you will always find people in your workplace who "speak your language".

[Edited 2008-01-21 01:59:39]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
FlyASAGuy2005
Posts: 3965
Joined: Sun Sep 23, 2007 4:55 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 21, 2008 11:15 am

This is a very interesting topic, and one that I find myself actually caught up in, in more ways than one. Myself, an aspiring airline pilot, really looks at this situation as an opportunity to get in the industry. But at the sime time, it can be hurtful.

I remember just 4-5 years ago when ASA's minimums, and most regionals for that matter was around 1500tt, but it wasn't unheard of for the average to be more like around 2500. Was pay better back then? I won't know, I wasn't that imersed in the aviation industry then. Can we expect things to get better? Who knows. I honestly see the 50 seater jet taking a BIG hit over the next 2-3 years. We are already seeing it with a lot of US regional carriers as a way to save fuel. I guess they have finally seen the error of their ways and maybe ditching turo-props for the glits of an "all jet fleet". I remember when Comair and Delta use to boast about CVG being and all jet base (be it a bunch of CR2's but all jet anyway). Now, I just saw an article about them swapping out a lot of the 40 and 50 seaters with the -900. So, can we actually expect a slowdown in the regional industry? I see ASA being hit next. The Atlanta base has really become a money looser and deliveries have come to a halt.

My father is a product of the cold-war pilot that you guys are talking about. He flew the F-4 and A-6 during is 12 year Naval carrer before he was picked up by Continental where he still is today. Things at Continental have changed drastically. I just hope that this influx of pilot hiring doesn't come and bite everyone is the behind 3 years from now because I honestly don't see this trend continuing past that. (furlough, anyone?)
What gets measured gets done.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:21 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
What I don't understand is why more US pilots don't migrate overseas. I understand not everyone wants to or can do it, but it seems to me as if there should be more working abroad, especially among the younger ones. Move abroad, make more, fly a mainline plane, have bigger job security. Compare that to working the crap routes at some US regional on the verge of collapse. I don't get it.

As usual, you express it better than I would...

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
It is not for everyone, of course. But I have found that if you stay open and positive it tends to work out well. Also, some form of cross cultural training is very useful. Adding to that, as a pilot you will always find people in your workplace who "speak your language".

I consider myself richer from all the people I met, socialised and worked with and I feel privileged that they made me feel welcome to their country and their homes...
And I've flown great airplanes in the mean time.

Cheers
Contrail designer
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:44 pm



Quoting Pihero (Reply 1):
Some of the countries could be a challenge : India, Eastern Europe,the Far-East, the Gulf... Are you ready for it ?

 checkmark  The catch is, is that several foreign carriers prefer to hire ex-captains of other carriers with lots of time, while they use a "local" person as the first officer.

One thing I never knew about, is aircraft crew leasing companies. I never knew such a business existed until recently, and that has me thinking. However, I know very little about this field.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:37 pm



Quoting N231YE (Reply 10):
several foreign carriers prefer to hire ex-captains of other carriers with lots of time, while they use a "local" person as the first officer.

You'll find out that the F/O market is also buoyant. Basically the demand - at this time - far exceeds the output of the flying schools.
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:39 pm



Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):
You'll find out that the F/O market is also buoyant. Basically the demand - at this time - far exceeds the output of the flying schools.

Thats true out here.
The number of freshers getting into flying is amazing.But most are choosing the carrier for the money.The selection procedures need to be strict enough to filter away the bad apples.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:16 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
What I don't understand is why more US pilots don't migrate overseas.

I have looked at going expat at various times. There are several reasons I haven't.
1. Licenses. The EU tends to look down their nose at the US license. My thousands of hours of experience count for little. Unless I am prepared to invest thousands of dollars and several months of my life to get a JAA license, I can't even apply to a EU carrier. I know there are are more carriers outside of the EU than inside, but it is an example. Other countries license conversion is not as strenuous, but still a consideration. "But it is an investment in your career", you might argue. True, but all that investment gets me is a chance to play the hiring lottery. In that regard the right to live/work can be much more complicated.

2. Visas. Many foreign carriers will not sponsor a pilot for a visa. Some will only hire citizens. There are many countries I would be happy to consider, but getting permission to live and work there is a formidable barrier. Especially for a US citizen. If I need a job, I don't have 6 months or a year to wait. Some of that may be due to reciprocating immigration policies, but that is beyond the scope of my consideration. Again, that does not get me a job, only the ability to apply.

3. Advancement/Politics. Typically a carrier will only hire expat pilots if they cannot satisfy their demand locally. When it comes to advancement, some companies are notorious for promoting the locals before the imports. If you do not speak the local language, you are out of the loop all together. When investigating certain countries, I got the impression that, as an American, they did not want me there, but might tolerate me out of necessity. I am not sure I want to move my family to that environment.

4. Family. It is much easier for a single person to go expat vs. a family type. You have to consider where your family will live and how much you will be away from them. If you are going to move them out of the country, how much will that cost? How are local conditions and schools? How are the travel benefits for family, so they can go visit the relatives? How long is the job likely to last and will it be long enough to recoup the cost?

I won't rule out going expat. If I found the right job I would apply tomorrow. However, if I can obtain halfway decent work within the US, is it worth it to go abroad? Right now the cost of it doesn't justify it.
Proud OOTSK member
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:11 pm

Lowrider,
Well detailed post and I'll try to answer some of your questions :
1/-Yes, the EU is difficult (they even have problems cross-licensing their own pilots, for Crissakes !) and unless you're hired by a US airline based in the EU, it is very difficult unless you'd go to the whole rigmarole of re-sitting some of the subjects - CAA case -.
On the other hand, as soon as you forget the EU, doors open wide.
2/-My experience is to the contrary, especially in the Middle East. Some require an NOC - non-objection certificate - from the Ministry of Interior that could take some time ( up to 3 months ) but that's about the max. If you pass their screening, they'll sponsor you. They can't otherwise.
3/-It is true that for some, the promotion of Nationals takes over an expat's seniority. A well established airline would do away with that, not forgetting that the market is very much in our favour and there is no way local recruitment will be sufficient for their growth needs. The problem, I have been told has been solved in the likes of EK...
4/- Family and kids education...Big problem to consider and one needs to get one's priorities right...
First you have to be sure that you're going to be worked to much higher levels than at home and if you're long hauling, home time will be reduced. less so on medium-haul routes.
My experience tells me that past primary school, there are fewer local possibilities than one would think..that enquiry should be made with the Foreign services of your country.
Basically, everybody either offers a number of reduced-fare tickets on their network or a return ticket for each on-duty period. Once again, that should be addressed at the interview level.
But if your kids are young enough to allow their education in the country, expat life is really worth living....problem is when you return home, the re=adjustment takes some time...Enough said.
First take a look at the FlightGlobal site, click on Jobs and make up your own mind.
Or if you have more questions, pm me or others on A.net.
Contrail designer
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:03 pm



Quoting Pihero (Reply 11):
You'll find out that the F/O market is also buoyant. Basically the demand - at this time - far exceeds the output of the flying schools.

Interesting...more for me to think about.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):

Thanks for the post, you bring out some really good information.

The thought of flying outside the United States for a career has crossed my mind much, thankfully I am a college student who will not have to worry about this for another 2 years (3 to 4 if I pursue an instructor position at my university). For one, I have zero-trust in the US airline industry. But, the thought of become a citizen of another country has always been a hold-back. I guess only time will tell.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:03 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):
I won't rule out going expat. If I found the right job I would apply tomorrow. However, if I can obtain halfway decent work within the US, is it worth it to go abroad? Right now the cost of it doesn't justify it.

What I like about your post is that you actually researched the situation, then decided not to go expat at this time. That's rational. But I suspect lots of Americans just don't do it.

I spoke to my neighbor yesterday. She's from California. Her cousin is a pilot. He used to work for CO and now works for EK. He's loving every minute. Makes more, has more time with his family, flies bigger and newer planes, has more job security. I asked her why she thought more Americans didn't move and she said that she thinks it's a deeply cultural thing (actually she said "Americans are too provincial"). She told me that when they told their friends they were moving to Hong Kong many looked at them as if they had said they were moving to the Moon.

Quoting N231YE (Reply 15):
But, the thought of become a citizen of another country has always been a hold-back.

I think you have a misconception about the difference between citizenship and residence.

If you moved abroad, you would most likely not become a citizen of another country (unless you wanted to and were willing to wait a few years) and you would retain your US citizenship. So no problems there. I've lived in California, Connecticut, London and Hong Kong and I'm still a Swedish citizen.

My daughters are dual US/Swedish citizens (born in the US to Swedish parents) and if we move back to the US my wife and I will go down the US citizenship route as well. But that's our choice. We could remain permanent residents for life if we wanted.

[Edited 2008-01-22 16:25:05]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:35 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 7):
What I don't understand is why more US pilots don't migrate overseas. I understand not everyone wants to or can do it, but it seems to me as if there should be more working abroad, especially among the younger ones.



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 13):
Some will only hire citizens. There are many countries I would be happy to consider, but getting permission to live and work there is a formidable barrier.

What's involved with gaining permission to work for an indefinite period of time in, say, the UK or Australia? I've briefly considered jobs in both of those countries, but don't understand what is required to live and work there long-term.

I understand visas are involved, but that's about as far as I've gotten. How difficult is it to acquire one? How frequently do they typically have to be renewed?

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:45 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 17):
What's involved with gaining permission to work for an indefinite period of time in, say, the UK or Australia?

Not sure about Australia, but I know for the UK you have to apply for a right to live/work visa (I can't remember the official name right now). If you have a job offer, they will probably will grant it. If not, then your claimed field will be considered. If it is an area where there is a great deal of demand and a short supply, then it will be granted. If a certain field is critically short, there is an expedited process, but otherwise it takes a few months. I think they are valid for 5 years and renewal is automatic so long as you stay employed and on the right side of the law.
Proud OOTSK member
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:51 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 17):
What's involved with gaining permission to work for an indefinite period of time in, say, the UK or Australia? I've briefly considered jobs in both of those countries, but don't understand what is required to live and work there long-term.

I understand visas are involved, but that's about as far as I've gotten. How difficult is it to acquire one? How frequently do they typically have to be renewed?

Immigration law is among the most arcane human artifacts ever invented, so I am not an expert. The following is my understanding. I hope someone local has better info.
- Australia. You can be sponsored by an employer. There is also a points system in which you are assigned points for various things. The younger you are, the more points. But more importantly, certain jobs get lots of points. If you are a physical therapist or doctor or (I think) pilot it's easier to get a working visa.
- UK. I don't know much about the UK system. As an EU citizen I can work and live there with no paperwork. But as far as I know it's easier to get into the UK than the US.

I would also add that if you want a piloting job, it might be easier to try and go to Dubai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan or somewhere like that than the UK and Australia. Said countries are much more expat friendly and the pilot shortage may be greater. Here in HK, I think there are about 350 000 expats, which is quite a lot considering the total population is about 7 million. The system is set up to receive skilled labor from abroad in a way you won't find in the UK.

Being an expat can be very frustrating, but it can also be very rewarding if you enter the experience with an open mind. You will also notice that many expats extend stays or go to new expat assignments instead of returning home. That should tell you something.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:03 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
I would also add that if you want a piloting job, it might be easier to try and go to Dubai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan or somewhere like that than the UK and Australia. Said countries are much more expat friendly and the pilot shortage may be greater. Here in HK, I think there are about 350 000 expats, which is quite a lot considering the total population is about 7 million. The system is set up to receive skilled labor from abroad in a way you won't find in the UK.

Being an expat can be very frustrating, but it can also be very rewarding if you enter the experience with an open mind. You will also notice that many expats extend stays or go to new expat assignments instead of returning home. That should tell you something.

Gee ! You stole my words as I was just about to post them !
Seriously, I agree with EVERYTHING Satarlionbleu has said.
For Lowrider, I might add that the countries he mentioned (except Dubai) won't pose an education problem. As far as I know, in Dubai, it's a British curriculum...but I may be wrong.
pm follows...soon.

PS ; the British have two systems : the *right of abode* for citizens born abroad (it's a bit more complicated but that's enough) and a residence permit (for foreigners).
Contrail designer
 
N231YE
Posts: 2620
Joined: Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:24 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:17 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 16):

Thanks for the response. At least it lightens things up a bit.
 
DC8FriendShip
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 7:35 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:43 am



Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 8):
I guess they have finally seen the error of their ways and maybe ditching turo-props for the glits of an "all jet fleet".

It now appears that thwe Dash-8 and ATR will outlast the baby jets. But watch for more 70-100 seat regionals- they are the next big wave in short range airliners. so there will be plenty of pilot jobs out there.
Come fly the Friendly Skies of United
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:53 am



Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
For Lowrider, I might add that the countries he mentioned (except Dubai) won't pose an education problem. As far as I know, in Dubai, it's a British curriculum...but I may be wrong.

Oh yeah. In HK and Singapore there are Canadian Schools, several American/International schools, French schools, German schools, Japanese schools. Take your pick.

BTW a good expat package will pay at least some school expenses.

I will also repeat my recommendation for cross cultural training. Very important.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:58 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 18):



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):

Good stuff, guys. Thanks for the input.

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Thu Jan 24, 2008 7:29 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
You will also notice that many expats extend stays or go to new expat assignments instead of returning home.

Out here Expats are offered very frequent vacation packages to visit their families.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:00 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 25):

Out here Expats are offered very frequent vacation packages to visit their families.

Just one of the common perks. Others include paid housing and schooling, professional management of your house "at home" if you rent it out, healthcare/dental/vision for the whole family, utilities paid for, relocation compensation lump sums...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:20 pm

As one can see from the above posts, one of the main advantages of an expat life is that there is -as a matter of fact - no misunderstanding : Your technisity is needed and they would like you to provide it. The rest is taken care of, to the point of being spoilt, especially in the Gulf : no tax form, no bills apart from telephone and electricity, facilities everywhere (laundry f.i)...they want you to be free and available to provide that technology services they require...which in turn leaves you free on your rest periods to explore and educate yourself.
What a deal !
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:23 am

Another "perk" is the possibility of hiring staff.

While Domestic Helpers in HK are typically not paid by your company, local wages are such that most expats in HK can and do have a helper. This is a live in (apartments tend to have "maid's quarters) or live out housekeeper/nanny who cooks/cleans/takes care of kids/runs errands/washes the car/waters plants/does laundry... She works six days a week, twelve hours a day, a typically HK work week for that sort of employment.

In the US or the UK, we could never have afforded a housekeeper of this kind. Here we have a gourmet cook who also takes wonderful care of our kids and runs the house. We can spend our free time not worrying about all that, so we have time to do other stuff and our kids get more quality time.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:31 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 28):
Another "perk" is the possibility of hiring staff.

I will be sure to mention that one to Mrs. Lowrider. I know she hates being stuck with certain chores when I am on the road. How hard is it to stay continuously employed? Are you scrambling at the end of a contract to find another job, or is there usually sufficent demand that you can make a fairly quick transition?
Proud OOTSK member
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:51 am



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 29):
I will be sure to mention that one to Mrs. Lowrider. I know she hates being stuck with certain chores when I am on the road.

Hehe yeah. I mean it's not like we mind, say, cooking. In fact we enjoy it. But now we can focus on that instead of cleaning and washing and doing dishes. You know, the boring stuff. Even buying groceries can be fun if you don't have the quest to clean the house hanging over you.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 29):
How hard is it to stay continuously employed? Are you scrambling at the end of a contract to find another job, or is there usually sufficent demand that you can make a fairly quick transition?

My wife is not a pilot. She works in the financial industry. So the following may not all be relevant. I would observe that:
- Staying employed doesn't seem to be an issue.
- Demand for skilled "Western labor" is not abating, nor does it show any signs of doing so.
- Contracts are very frequently extended. Employers who see a good employee want to keep said employee. And any decent employer will not wait until the last minute. If nothing else, residence paperwork takes time to sort out.
- There is competition for Westerners, at least in the financial markets. And it is advantageous to already have expat experience when it comes to getting a new job. If a company wants to hire an expat, they'd rather hire someone who is already local or at least is already an expat, since that someone has already gone through most or all of the inevitable transition issues.
- Even if you "go home", by choice or not, having expat experience makes you more attractive.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 28, 2008 2:22 pm



Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):



Quoting Cloudy (Thread starter):
IF they make the major leagues. A mainline airline pilot, however, is rewarded only with the first reasonable wages in his entire working life. Plus, he has to travel all the time and has little job security.

Cold war trained pilots will have to retire eventually. Every year there is less glamour in flying, especially commercial flying. Someday the industry will have to pay what other industries pay for people with very high responsibility and skill requirements - yet labor costs are a big burden to airlines even as they are. Where in the heck will the airline industry get the qualified pilots it needs 20-30 years from now?

There is glamor in flying just not airline flying. Cargo, private jet operators are making more and more money and have better benefits than even some legacy airlines here in the states. The reason is because they operate like normal business they can charge $10 for something that costs $1 while airlines are basically paying $10 for you to fly for $1. Mostly it has to do with the recent LCC mentality of passengers and I don't blame them they could probably care less that they're taking away from the CAs 200K salary as long as they save a few dollars on their tickets. Point is that at this rate there's no hope for the airlines and as to the topic the pilot shortage, the only way the shortage will be lessened is if airlines up the pay like it was pre-9/11 and that is pretty much the LAST thing they will do because they can't afford it. Airlines have to start charging what they should and pax have to be willing to pay. But with 20+ airlines out there with so much compettion it's going to be doubtful.

Do be fair it's bad in the States, aviation around the world I'd say is blooming.
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:10 pm



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 31):
The reason is because they operate like normal business they can charge $10 for something that costs $1 while airlines are basically paying $10 for you to fly for $1.

 rotfl  Well put!

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 31):
Airlines have to start charging what they should and pax have to be willing to pay.

Agreed. However if the airlines "hide behind" Chapter 11 on a regular basis and investors keep pumping in money on an equally regular basis I don't see much hope of common sense arriving on the scene anytime soon.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:00 pm



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 31):
he reason is because they operate like normal business they can charge $10 for something that costs $1 while airlines are basically paying $10 for you to fly for $1.

Wow I never really thought of it like that. Such a simple explanation. Thank you
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
Max Q
Posts: 5644
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:14 am

Well, age 65 will certainly slow down Airline hiring plans and help alleviate any pilot shortage.....unfortunately.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:31 am



Quoting Max Q (Reply 34):



Well, age 65 will certainly slow down Airline hiring plans and help alleviate any pilot shortage.....unfortunately.

With more stringint medical requirements for these seniors.There would be preference for freshers given the choice by Airlines,unless the requirement cannot be met.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:47 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 35):
With more stringint medical requirements for these seniors.

No, the same medical standards apply, at least in the US.
Proud OOTSK member
 
AirWillie6475
Posts: 2372
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:45 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:41 pm



Quoting Max Q (Reply 34):
Well, age 65 will certainly slow down Airline hiring plans and help alleviate any pilot shortage.....unfortunately

That's true but the problem is that the application pool will dry out. I think pro flying is one of those professions that is kept alive only because of the pay, it's hard, there's a lot of stress and not to mention that you'll have to be away from family days at a time. There probably isn't a person with common sense that would pay for college, and flight training at a cost of 100K or more in many cases just to be able to sit reserve making 21K initially.
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:07 pm



Quoting Lowrider (Reply 36):
No, the same medical standards apply, at least in the US.

Im surprised,Out here Pilots >60 are subject to more stringent & more frequent medicals than younger pilots,for obvious reasons.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:49 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 34):
Well, age 65 will certainly slow down Airline hiring plans and help alleviate any pilot shortage.....unfortunately.

It's a complete falsehood. just look at AF : reduced growth due to pilot shortage that the cadet scheme can't solve...more jobs to Transavia and God knows who else in the near future...
And that's not your problem either. You might be delayed, but that's the US sole situation. And these old geezers, they launch the fast growing lines of ME and Asian air carriers.
And I'm pretty sure that you will be glad to have a few more years in an airplane when you reach 60.
Otherwise, you are in the wrong line of job.

Regards.

PS : In life, there are games and choices. The games are for everyone, with rules that people before us have set. You accept them - seniority and its attached liabilities and perks, unstable family and social life, fatigue -...Nothing is hidden if one looks for details. The game has to be played until the rules change / evolve... Can't play it otherwise. Just like a contract : you see it , you read it, you sign it and you are ethically bound by your signature. Amendments only come from your bosses' good heart (another word for *profitable solution* ) or negociations.
Choices ? By definition, they are personal, they are the visibble sign of our freedom...until they are made and then we play the game.
No whining, no whinging. We're free. We're winners...unless we made a bad choice (but that's another story ).

[Edited 2008-01-30 15:03:41]
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:07 am



Quoting Pihero (Reply 39):
No whining, no whinging. We're free. We're winners...unless we made a bad choice (but that's another story ).

And even then most choices aren't irrevocable.

Be prepared. "Luck is when preparation meets opportunity."
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Max Q
Posts: 5644
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Thu Jan 31, 2008 7:15 am

What a bunch of c**p.

Not sure how long you have been in this game 'pihero' but obviously you have not learned that much.

I have worked for my current airline for 21 years and it was 15 years before I could hold the left seat on our smallest aircraft.

Myself and my peers now face utter stagnation in career progress due to age 65 along with the reduced earnings that brings.

I never wanted age 65 to got through and always planned on leaving at 60, that is old enough, I like this job but enough is enough, there are other things in life, you show your ignorance by not realizing this and in your lack of knowledge of the tremendous sacrifices required and decades of dedication required as an airline pilot in this country.

The contract I signed was to work to 60 and that has not changed.I will not 'be glad to have a few extra years in the aircraft'

I will be gone, after 40 + years of aviation there are other things. Try educating yourself a little, it can really open your mind..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:07 am



Quoting Max Q (Reply 41):
I have worked for my current airline for 21 years and it was 15 years before I could hold the left seat on our smallest aircraft.

Once again, you are in the US. Period. Your situation has NO equivalent just about anywhere else in the world. The trend on *major* airlines in Europe is at the moment 9 years fast going down from entry to command.
Naturally, it's a lot faster on smaller outfits (but they hire generally more experienced people, from regionals f.i)

Quoting Max Q (Reply 41):
I never wanted age 65 to got through and always planned on leaving at 60,

And just twiddle your thumbs for the odd twenty years after your retirement.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 41):
your lack of knowledge of the tremendous sacrifices required and decades of dedication required as an airline pilot in this country

See above. If they are too much for you, you should have invested in another trade.
If, as you say "there are other things", by all means, get out there and do them. Nobody has forced you.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 41):
Try educating yourself a little, it can really open your mind..

Funny you say that. Read Starlion's and Hawk21's posts. I think they are pretty educational in their wider view and scope of the world. There is a whole planet outside the US of America.
And I dare say that in terms of education, view of the world we could very interestingly compare our experiences.
You bet ?
Contrail designer
 
Max Q
Posts: 5644
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:42 pm

Interesting you should mention there is another planet outside of the US.

Since I came from that 'other planet' I am reasonably familiar with it !

I am English by birth and spent half of my youth there and the rest in Asia, I have friends and family all over the world and see a good portion of it in my job.

You assume, once again in your ignorance that only a European (French perhaps) could be as worldwise as yourself.

I have been to France many times, it is one of my favourite countries, and, actually have found the majority of the French to be a pleasure to deal with, there are of course, the stereotypical arrogant examples that Americans and the rest of the world seem to find most familiar.

I don't know if you are a pilot, I find it unlikely or you would have an understanding of what it means to work in this business for a long period of time, I would suggest your youth and inexperience work against you in that regard.

If you are starting out in this field you have a lot to learn, if you have been doing it for a while and have this attitude, good luck, you will need it !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Pihero
Posts: 4206
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:29 pm



Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):
I am English by birth and spent half of my youth there and the rest in Asia, I have friends and family all over the world and see a good portion of it in my job.

You should then qualify for one of these offers instead of whingeing about your situation over there in the united States.
As I said before, it's a matter of choices. You don't like it, go do something else and leave the flying for those who want it.

As YOU might have noticed, so far my posts have been quite civil : I gave an opinion on a global situation in which for reasons we won't mention, the US are quite an exception.
You chose to be confrontational with it ...Sorry, I'm not playing your game.
You keep your bitterness, I keep my love of flying, very probably until international regs won't allow it any more. (The ICAO is already, on the basis on new medical evidence to propose a 67 years limit ).

Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):
don't know if you are a pilot, I find it unlikely or you would have an understanding of what it means to work in this business for a long period of time

Yeah ! When after nearly 15 years of long haul - seven of them as a Captain - I felt that the fatigue of night flights and jet lags were getting in the way of my enjoyment, I transferred to medium haul...Another choice which I am happy I made.
As for experience, if you didn't diddle your profile, what sort of arrogance makes you think I fiddled mine ?
At least a few members know who I am, some even flew on my flight deck jumpseats, others with colleagues of mine !
I dare say that's something you can't match.

So long...

I have a long flight to-morrow - 4 hours - and I'm going to enjoy every minute of it.
Don't bother to answer, you are now among those I never respond to.
Contrail designer
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17117
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:23 am



Quoting Max Q (Reply 41):
What a bunch of c**p.

Not sure how long you have been in this game 'pihero' but obviously you have not learned that much.

I don't understand what you're arguing about. Did you even read Pihero's posts? You cite US experience, and IMHO he's not arguing that in the US things are like you say. The point is that there are other places you could work or have worked.

I must also say that your attitude could be more civil. You come off as a grumpy old man who has suffered his entire career and now wants out. In any case if you don't agree with a poster you don't need to be all condescending about it.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Fri Feb 01, 2008 12:38 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 45):
I must also say that your attitude could be more civil. You come off as a grumpy old man who has suffered his entire career and now wants out. In any case if you don't agree with a poster you don't need to be all condescending about it.

Agreed. It's beyond me how someone can voluntarily interact with others in an attempt to educate them, and then allow themselves to come across in such a bad-tempered, negative manner.

It's not an isolated incident, either. It seems to be an ongoing trend. What do you have against posting in a friendly, respectful manner, Max?  eyebrow 

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3217
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:29 am

Im no pro here, nor do I have to be, but...

I think Max Q is a regional (read CoEx) pilot for CO..

No 777/762/764 crewmember would complain about a horrible life or sacrifice if you ask me....

Quoting Max Q (Reply 43):
If you are starting out in this field you have a lot to learn, if you have been doing it for a while and have this attitude, good luck, you will need it !

I actually agree with him (Pinero). As a Luso-American (Portuguese-American for those that dont understand), many aspects of life abroad are easier. Likewise many are more difficult but in the flying world, opportunities are far better abroad. Do a google search or even a search on a.net and you will see.

Thank god I took the management route...the way some of you speak of flying made me happy I got only my instrument and then left for something more profitable...
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
lowrider
Posts: 2542
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 am

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:04 am

Quoting AirPortugal310 (Reply 47):
No 777/762/764 crewmember would complain about a horrible life or sacrifice if you ask me....

I don't know if I would strictly agree with that. Every position comes with some sort of sacrifice. Be it time at home, money, or where you live. Some of those are more onerous than others. How bad each is depends on the person. For some people, living outside their home country is too much to ask. For others, spending more than a few days away from family is a deal breaker. I do think Max unloaded on Pihero a little too quickly, but Age 65 has had a very immediate impact on some people's careers. I know some very upset guys who had their upgrade canceled. Financially that is a big deal. I am trying to take a big picture perspective. I thought it would happen eventually, and, once again, I will have to adapt accordingly.

[Edited 2008-02-01 19:05:11]
Proud OOTSK member
 
PhilSquares
Posts: 3371
Joined: Sun Mar 28, 2004 6:06 pm

RE: Long Term Pilot Shortage

Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:28 am



Quoting Max Q (Reply 34):
Well, age 65 will certainly slow down Airline hiring plans and help alleviate any pilot shortage.....unfortunately.

After reading the posts and the bantering going on I thought I'd add my 2 cents worth for what ever that matters.

With respect to the implementation of the age 65 rule, tough! I left a 121 carrier in the mid 90s and I have never looked back. There is/was no guarantee of ever moving to the left seat and you were hired as a pilot, not a Captain or a FO, but a pilot. Now if you look at the expansion plans (in the US) of all the majors, the over 60 rule change isn't going to make that much of a difference. Even if every single one of those pilots stay on, there will still be upward movement. So, I don't quite see how anyone could complain.

As far as the market forces in the US vs. the rest of the world, it's much different. In the rest of the world, you have airlines which have cadet programs so these individuals bypass the common path that's used in the US, which is commuters. Please note, I am not saying the process in Europe and the rest of the world completely bypasses the commuter or military path, but quite a few pilots in the rest of the world do come from abinitio programs run/sponsored by various airlines.

One has to look on the pilot shortage from a global perspective. There is a major shortage of EXPERIENCED pilots in the world. The change in the retirement age had already happened in most countries a few years ago, so the impact in the rest of the world will be minimal. And, that shortage is going to get much worse before it gets better. However, if someone in the US wants to get a fairly decent job outside of the US, there are more opportunities than one can shake a stick at. But, you have to want to do that. For me personally, it was the best move I ever made and I haven't looked back once. If someone is a regional jet pilot/captain in the US there are scores of jobs outside of the US. For the first time that I can remember, you have airlines looking for expat pilots without a type rating on that aircraft, read, KE, EK, EY, GF, CX, SQ....the list goes on and on.

The US aviation industry can be very insular. If you don't open your eyes and force yourself to look and see what's out side the borders you get a very myoptic view of the aviation industry. I would urge all to do just that.
Fly fast, live slow

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: JAAlbert and 11 guests