2H4
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Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:24 am

....From http://ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20071231X02008&key=1:

(emphasis mine)

===============================================================
On December 26, 2007, at 1002 mountain standard time, a Piper PA-46-310P, N47BC, piloted by an Airline Transport Pilot, experienced an engine crankshaft failure and subsequent propeller separation, approximately 12.5 miles east of the Aspen/Pitkin County Airport (ASE), Aspen, Colorado.

The personal flight was being operated on an instrument flight rules flight plan from ASE to Denver, Colorado, under the provisions of Title 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 91. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed. The pilot and three passengers were not injured and the airplane sustained minor damage. The flight departed ASE approximately 0945.

The pilot said that on climb out passing 16,000 feet, he began to notice oil droplets forming on his windscreen. On seeing the oil, he contacted Aspen Approach, declared an emergency, and began a standard rate, 180-degree turn, back to the airport. He said the turn took about a minute.

Just as he'd completed the turn, he heard a "boom" felt a shutter, and then his whole windscreen was covered with oil. The pilot said he may have noted a pitch up with the bang, but he immediately got on the best glide speed, 90 knots, and began retracing his ground track back to the airport. The pilot said everything on the airplane continued to work. He had electrics, could navigate and got the gear down.

The pilot said because he knew the Aspen area well, he was able to navigate and set up for a dead stick landing. He said he could see the runway through the oil on his windscreen as a dark blur in the surrounding snow. He said he kept his speed up as he didn't want to land short.

Once he got close to the runway, he looked out the side windows to judge the flare and touchdown. He said he just wanted to keep the airplane in the center of the runway. He rolled out to the end of the runway and turned off on to the taxiway before stopping. The pilot said it was only when he was on the ground and one of the responding firemen informed him that he realized he didn't have a propeller.

An examination of the airplane showed minor damage to the front of the cowling. The engine showed the crankshaft fractured aft of the flange. The propeller and spinner, and the front part of the crankshaft were missing. No other damage to the airplane was found. The engine was retained for further examination.
===============================================================














This guy gets serious style points for thoughtfully vacating the runway after landing. Do you suppose his post-flight martini was shaken or stirred?

2H4
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flymatt2bermud
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:52 am

Nice report 2H4! I wonder if they found the prop?
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KELPkid
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:04 am

Double bonus points for being able to see out the front after the prop hub hemorraged oil Big grin

Does your glide distance go up? I'd imagine having no prop, windmilling or stopped, will significantly increase the glide distance...question is, does this change L/Dmax and your best rate of glide speed?  Wink

Also, anyone know how you get the gear down in a Malibu with no power-is it electric gear, or do you have to sit there pumping an emergency handle like there's no tomorrow once you're assured of a landing?
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Jetlagged
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:22 am

To be very pedantic, to have landed Hoover style he would have had to touch down on each main wheel singly, then both together before turning off.  mischievous 

For me, the most impressive thing was not the coasting turn at the end of the runway, but the fact that he flew the approach with almost nil forward visibility. I see the pilot was an ATP so he would have been used to flying without seeing where he was going.  Wink
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WrenchBender
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:06 am



Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
Do you suppose his post-flight martini was shaken or stirred?

I doubt if it mattered, but it was surely guzzled.

WrenchBender
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pilotpip
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:32 am

He's damn lucky the prop didn't take out the empennage on the way back. There was a 210 near CPS a few years ago that lost the prop and it took out the rudder. He didn't survive.
DMI
 
Ceph
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:35 am

Great job! Incredible incident! Imagine the pilot's reaction when the responding fireman told him: I think your propeller is missing...
 
levent
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:08 am

I hope no one got the propeller on his/her head...
 
avt007
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:47 pm

Aspen is a bad place for that kinda thing, the mountains are big, and very close to the runway. Good job!
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:11 pm

That aircraft has a pretty generous wingspan, so tons of wing to glide on coming home...worst airport I could think of to do that in, but he made it, so bravo-zulu!

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
hangarrat
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:39 pm



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 2):
Does your glide distance go up? I'd imagine having no prop, windmilling or stopped, will significantly increase the glide distance...question is, does this change L/Dmax and your best rate of glide speed?

Peter Garrison wrote a column about that in Flying a couple of months ago. He tested it, not so much by losing his prop, but by measuring the difference in drag with the prop windmilling and with the prop stopped and feathered.

The article's not online, unfortunately.
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SilverComet
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:19 pm

Something very similar happened to one of my friends (and now a colleague) during our CPL training in France. We were flying solo cross country along the same route, I was a few minutes behind him. We were both flying DA-40's. He did a touch and go at Amiens (LFAY) and on initial climb at ~1000' AGL he lost all power with the town of Amiens under him. He immediately turned on downwind and declared an emergency. Airport was not controlled at the time (it was a Sunday) and there were quite a few other aircraft in the pattern so he had to make sure everyone knew he was coming in to land no matter what.

The DA-40, with its wingspan of 11m, performs like a glider. So even with only about 1000' of air under him he managed to perform a by-the-book engine out pattern and land AND vacate the runway (by that time I had reached overhead and witnessed it all). I came in to land shortly after to see if he was okay and assess the damage. The whole underside of the engine cowling and front part of the fuselage was black with oil. Investgation carried out a few days later revealed the engine casing had cracked and he had lost all the engine oil.

He was acclaimed as almost a hero for having kept his cool and done what the school had taught him to do and landing safely.

All his glory went down the drain a few weeks later when he taxiied the wing of said DA-40 into a hangar. Damage: €3500.

There is no such thing as a free lunch, I guess.
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:25 pm



Quoting HangarRat (Reply 10):
Peter Garrison wrote a column about that in Flying a couple of months ago. He tested it, not so much by losing his prop, but by measuring the difference in drag with the prop windmilling and with the prop stopped and feathered.

The glide ratio will improve considerably without the propeller; the best glide speed will not change. I am curious as to whether or not this plane has had its crankshaft replaced; all big Lycomings had to have the cranks replaced a few years ago after a few incidents like this one and it was discovered that someone had changed the forging process and it resulted in weaker cranks. This was an AD and thus it would be illegal to fly an affected plane; was this one flying illegally or is there a new issue with Lycoming cranks?
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
hangarrat
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:35 pm



Quoting HangarRat (Reply 10):
measuring the difference in drag with the prop windmilling and with the prop stopped and feathered

Just to correct myself, I believe the test was the difference in glide ratio and speed with the prop in coarse pitch v. fine pitch.
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SEPilot
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:39 pm



Quoting HangarRat (Reply 13):
Just to correct myself, I believe the test was the difference in glide ratio and speed with the prop in coarse pitch v. fine pitch.

I have tried this on my 182; it makes a very dramatic difference. Note that for maximum glide the speed does not change; but the glide angle does. With no prop at all the difference will be even greater.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
BWI757
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:27 pm

For all those who will participate in the next 2H4 "Identify This" contest, take note  Smile
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KELPkid
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:34 pm



Quoting BWI757 (Reply 15):
For all those who will participate in the next 2H4 "Identify This" contest, take note

Uh-oh, so is this one a Malibu or a Mirage? Who's good at telling a Contintental big six from a Lycoming big six?  eyebrow 
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BAE146QT
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:27 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
On seeing the oil, he contacted Aspen Approach, declared an emergency,

The way the report describes it, I get the impression that it was just droplets, like light drizzle. If my inference is correct, then clearly we're talking about a pilot who didn't stop to ponder this new phenomenon - he acted for contingency.

I get to play with all sorts of heavy metal in my job and in my hobbies. Rule #1 - if it's doing something you've never seen before, don't ponder it. Plan your escape.

::EDIT:: I'll add to Rule #1 - ...and it's doing something that you've not trained for...

Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
The pilot said it was only when he was on the ground and one of the responding firemen informed him that he realized he didn't have a propeller.

I was going to call shenanegans on this, but I've seen the light. We've established that the lack of a (windmilling) prop would have a noticable effect on the glide. Obviously he knew his engine was out, so the question was going to be - "How was he able to calculate the glide, not knowing the performance of his suddenly-modified aircraft?" But reading the report again, he says he kept his speed up - so I assume decided to carry the energy until the last minute, not knowing how badly his bird was broken.

I've left this here for anyone else who is as stoofid as me and thinks to ask the same thing.


Either way, I'd love to know what direction the prop left the aircraft. from the pics I'm guessing over the right wing?

[Edited 2008-01-29 15:38:59]
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rfdramp
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:56 am

I think the engine is a Lycoming. I think I see the pushrod tubes on top, but I'm not totally sure. I've been away from school for too long so I can't tell for sure right now.
 
2H4
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:18 pm



Quoting Flymatt2bermud (Reply 1):
I wonder if they found the prop?

Yeah, just imagine taking the dog out for a leisurely stroll through the neighborhood and having a prop cartwheel down and impale itself in the ground a few feet away from poor Fido.

Or in the roof of your car. I wonder if my insurance would cover it.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 5):
He's damn lucky the prop didn't take out the empennage on the way back.

I was thinking the same thing. What a mess that would have been.

Quoting SilverComet (Reply 11):
He was acclaimed as almost a hero for having kept his cool and done what the school had taught him to do and landing safely.

All his glory went down the drain a few weeks later when he taxiied the wing of said DA-40 into a hangar. Damage: €3500.

Man, what a kick in the rear!

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 12):
I am curious as to whether or not this plane has had its crankshaft replaced; all big Lycomings had to have the cranks replaced a few years ago



Quoting Rfdramp (Reply 18):
I think the engine is a Lycoming.



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 16):
Who's good at telling a Contintental big six from a Lycoming big six?

I am! I think it's a Continental TSIO-520.  Wink

2H4
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2H4
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover St

Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:13 pm

Update....from The Aspen Times:


===============================================================================
Cox’s Piper Malibu dates back to 1988, but the Continental engine was a recently re-manufactured model with just 147 hours in the air.

Cox believes it was a metallurgical defect where the propeller meets the crank shaft in the nose of the plane that caused the problem, and said he hopes the repair will be covered in a warranty.

===============================================================================

2H4
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rfdramp
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:26 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20):

cheater... using sources and the such. if i would have looked at the ntsb report that question would have been a lot easier.
 
2H4
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:39 pm



Quoting Rfdramp (Reply 21):
cheater... using sources and the such. if i would have looked at the ntsb report that question would have been a lot easier.

All available resources, my friend.....all available resources.  biggrin 

At least I didn't try to pretend it was a simple matter of identifying engine casing bolts.  Wink

2H4
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N231YE
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:13 pm

See 2H4, the Piper made it back in almost one piece...now, had that have been a Cessna  eek 

 wink 
 
2H4
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:22 pm



Quoting N231YE (Reply 23):
now, had that have been a Cessna

....it would have been a much more comfortable experience for the folks at the airport.

2H4
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N231YE
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:39 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 24):
....it would have been a much more comfortable experience for the folks at the airport.

...to know that the Cessna would have provided a good landing. Only, in this case, the Piper provided a great landing (albeit, in need of a few repairs)  mischievous 
 
2H4
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:58 pm



Quoting N231YE (Reply 25):
...to know that the Cessna would have provided a good landing.

No, what I meant was that, had they been in a Cessna, the folks on the ground wouldn't have experienced such nausea upon seeing it.  biggrin 

2H4
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N231YE
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:05 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):
the folks on the ground wouldn't have experienced such nausea upon seeing it.   

Because there would have been nothing left  bigthumbsup 
 
2H4
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover St

Thu Jan 31, 2008 12:18 am



Quoting N231YE (Reply 27):
Because there would have been nothing left

Nothing left to see....yeah, you're right. It would have made it to the original destination in style and comfort.  mischievous 

2H4
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meister808
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Thu Jan 31, 2008 3:54 am

... and had it been a Cirrus, it would have been gently deposited to the side of a mountain, where the occupants would have surely frozen to death under their rather un-insulative parachute.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
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SEPilot
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover St

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:08 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 19):
I am! I think it's a Continental TSIO-520.

That is correct; later models have the Lycoming TIO-540, which I assumed it had. But looking at the pictures I see the alternator at right angles to the crank, which is only on the Continental. Also, there are no pushrod tubes on top, where they are on a Lycoming. Apologies for my earlier post where I just assumed it was a Lycoming.
The problem with making things foolproof is that fools are so doggone ingenious...Dan Keebler
 
Jawed
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:47 am

why do you say that?

Quoting Meister808 (Reply 29):
... and had it been a Cirrus, it would have been gently deposited to the side of a mountain, where the occupants would have surely frozen to death under their rather un-insulative parachute.

 
SilverComet
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Fri Feb 01, 2008 5:54 pm



Quoting Jawed (Reply 31):

Some Cirrus (Cirrii?) models have a parachute packed somewhere inside the fuselage, and it can be deployed in case of engine failure. So the plane floats back down. But that's the theory. I do not know if that feature has ever been used in a real engine failure situation.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:02 pm



Quoting SilverComet (Reply 32):
Some Cirrus (Cirrii?) models have a parachute packed somewhere inside the fuselage, and it can be deployed in case of engine failure.

Cirrus Airframe Parachute System™ (CAPS). Standard on all current Cirrii (I like that!).

Quoting SilverComet (Reply 32):
I do not know if that feature has ever been used in a real engine failure situation.

According to Cirrus it's saved "over 20 people", so they must have had a few uses.

Tom.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:17 pm



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 33):
Quoting SilverComet (Reply 32):
I do not know if that feature has ever been used in a real engine failure situation.

According to Cirrus it's saved "over 20 people", so they must have had a few uses.

Tom.

Unfortunately, however, the Cirrus fleet is still experiencing above-average fatality rates per 1000 hours of flying compared to the rest of the GA fleet  Sad I don't think it has anything to do with CAPS, unless pilots are making riskier decisions because they feel they can pop the 'chute if they get themselves into too much trouble.
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rfdramp
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:50 pm

does anyone know what altitude is needed for the CAPS to be effective?
 
pilotpip
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:12 pm

Most of the deployments have occured due to inadvertant flight into IMC. So yes, people are using it as a crutch. A vast majority of the fatalities have been the result of CFIT.
DMI
 
2H4
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:20 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 36):
So yes, people are using it as a crutch.

Do you think the relatively advanced avionics are similarly being used as a crutch?

I flew an SR20 with a guy once, and couldn't believe how much faith he placed in the (pseudo) TCAS. Even in the pattern, he'd glance at the screen, see that there was no traffic depicted, and then turn onto final without ever actually looking out the window for traffic.

I guess I've had way to many knuckleheads sneak into the pattern with a fast straight-in, so I've always made a point to visually check final before turning onto it.

Anyway, between the traffic and wx capabilities of the avionics package, I wonder if that's been a crutch and gotten pilots into trouble even more so than the chute.

2H4
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pilotpip
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:54 pm

All of the above. All of that stuff makes people forget that they're flying VFR and need to look outside. TAA aircraft are a prime example of technology only being a good thing if you know it's limitations as well as your own.
DMI
 
N231YE
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:02 am



Quoting Rfdramp (Reply 35):
does anyone know what altitude is needed for the CAPS to be effective?

At least one mistake high  wink 
 
BAE146QT
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RE: Slick Pilot Loses Entire Prop, Lands Hoover Style

Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:56 pm



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 34):
unless pilots are making riskier decisions because they feel they can pop the 'chute if they get themselves into too much trouble.

You probably know this but I'll put it here for those who might not;

Reliable parachutes were available during the first world war, (and in fact their ancestors were designed by Leonardo DaVinci). Despite this, the leaders of the RFC/RAF declined to include them in military aircraft during that conflict on the basis that the crew - when coming under fire - would use them to escape, thereby sacrificing a valuable asset - the aicraft.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 37):
I flew an SR20 with a guy once, and couldn't believe how much faith he placed in the (pseudo) TCAS. Even in the pattern, he'd glance at the screen, see that there was no traffic depicted, and then turn onto final without ever actually looking out the window for traffic.

I'm no professional pilot, as you may be aware, but I do work with technology. And that's why I know that relying on it utterly is utterly stupid.

I wouldn't wish an incident on anyone, but I do hope that this gentleman manages to learn from experience that what he is doing is wrong, without killing himself, his passengers, or some other hapless pilot.
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