ewmahle
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Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:24 am

Good eveing all. I just returned from PHL on US Flt. 1460 to RDU. In PHL our 737 was started at the gates using the air truck. I had seen this done once before on a UA737 but I have never been on a flight in which this has happened nor do I really understand why it is done.

Can anyone provide a resonable explanation as to why the pilot, or the ground crew, would decide to start the engines this way and what exactly happens when they do it? I am not looking for a technical answer, just general resoning.

Thanks
 
zanl188
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:32 am

The APU is probably inop. The engines need hi pressure air to run the starters, which the apu would normally provide.
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phxpilot
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:33 am

Air carrier size jet engines are started using compressed air. This air can come from the APU or a ground source. The compressed air turns a miniature turbine which is connected to the high pressure compressor. To start the engine the high pressure compressor is driven to a given percentage of rotation by the starter through the use of this compressed air. Fuel is then introduced along with a spark. Once lightoff occurs, the engine is accelerated through a combination of the starter plus the expanding exhaust gasses. Upon reaching a given percentage of rotation, the starter cuts out and the engine becomes self-sustaining.

The reason you would need an external source of compressed air on a 737 is if the APU was inoperative.

(ZANL188 beat me to it by 1 minute)

[Edited 2008-01-28 16:34:56]
 
PHLapproach
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:39 am

UGHHH, my ears are bleeding just thinking about my companies air start trucks. One little I would like to add, A&P's use to do air starts. But now it's fleet service that does them.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:40 am

Those things can get LOUD! Huffers as we ramp rats call them is used quite often. Sad, but at ASA, I used one atleast once a day to start of an RJ with an INOP APU.
What gets measured gets done.
 
ewmahle
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:01 am

Thanks for your quick responses. So an In-Op APU is presumably not of any immediate concern to the well-being of the Airliner, so then when will they take the time to fix or replace the APU? Is it something they could do at the end of the day and have running again by the next morning or will US simply wait until the plane can be taken out of service and put in to MX?
 
roseflyer
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:53 am



Quoting Ewmahle (Reply 5):
So an In-Op APU is presumably not of any immediate concern to the well-being of the Airliner, so then when will they take the time to fix or replace the APU? Is it something they could do at the end of the day and have running again by the next morning or will US simply wait until the plane can be taken out of service and put in to MX?

It really depends on the airline. A 737 can fly without an APU, but it is something that should be fixed in a relatively short manner. RJs often will go longer periods of time without an APU, but on the 737, the APU is an important thing to have. It is an ETOPS requirement since it is the only source of power should there be a duel engine failure. Also not all stations have the ability to perform a ground cart air start on a 737, so the APU would likely be replaced in short order.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
flymatt2bermud
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 2:12 am

I heard a DC8 crew in the Middle East actually convinced a fire rescue vehicle to spray high pressure water through an outboard engine to get it turning enough to start the engine. The ground huffer and aircraft APU were both inop. It was not an approved procedure and the word was the captain was disciplined, but he made his schedule so his punishment wasn't too severe. I have put in a call to the guy who gave me the story, perhaps he can elaborate.
"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward" Leonardo Da Vinci
 
fr8mech
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:30 am



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 1):
hi pressure air to run the starters

I hate to nitpick, but I will...the aircraft starter uses a high volume of relatively low pressure air (35-45 psi).

Quoting Ewmahle (Reply 5):
Is it something they could do at the end of the day and have running again by the next morning or will US simply wait until the plane can be taken out of service and put in to MX?

An APU is normally a catergory C MEL item. That means it can go 10 days until it must be fixed, with an extremely few exceptions.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:38 am



Quoting Ewmahle (Thread starter):
Can anyone provide a resonable explanation as to why the pilot, or the ground crew, would decide to start the engines this way and what exactly happens when they do it

B737 Powerplant uses an Air starter,which needs compressed air to start from either the APU,other Engine or Ground pneumatic cart.
In this case the APU was u/s or APU pneumatics was u/s hence the use of the ground cart.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:51 am



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
It is an ETOPS requirement since it is the only source of power should there be a duel engine failure.

ETOPS does not cater for dual engine failure!
On some aircraft the APU is required for ETOPS, like B737, but on aircraft that are designed for ETOPS the APU is not required.
On B777 the APU can be inop for an ETOPS departure. Each main engine has a Back up generator which is there to cater for engine failure in the cruise.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:16 pm

Some cool air starter stuff in this article (my favorite a.nut article): http://www.airliners.net/articles/read.main?id=52
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
roseflyer
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:40 pm



Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 10):
ETOPS does not cater for dual engine failure!

Yes that is correct. I think I worded my statement incorrectly. On airplanes without a RAT, the APU is usually required for ETOPS. Should there be an engine failure and an IDG failure on the other engine, the plane would be dead if it didn't have an operable APU. I wasn't referring to the case of both engines failing, but rather electrical or hydraulic failures.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 3:43 pm



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 12):
On airplanes without a RAT, the APU is usually required for ETOPS.

The B757 has a RAT & ETOPS would need a serviceable APU.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
pilotpip
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:04 pm



Quoting FlyMatt2Bermud (Reply 7):
I heard a DC8 crew in the Middle East actually convinced a fire rescue vehicle to spray high pressure water through an outboard engine to get it turning enough to start the engine. The ground huffer and aircraft APU were both inop.

I know that a few existed, but most DC-8s don't have APU's. The ones that did had all kinds of issues.

EMB-145s have very unreliable APUs. For passengers the most discomfort will be caused by the inability to have the packs heating/cooling the cabin during a turn.
DMI
 
A10WARTHOG
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:13 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 14):
EMB-145s have very unreliable APUs. For passengers the most discomfort will be caused by the inability to have the packs heating/cooling the cabin during a turn.

What model APU do you have the C-11 or C-14? The C-14 is alot better then the earlier C-11. They still fail, but not as much and in two years of working on them they have gotten a lot better. Once Sundstrand figure out they had a FADEC problem, the solder joints on the boards where breaking. This was only found in service and not a test bench until they started opening them up.
 
777wt
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:54 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 14):
EMB-145s have very unreliable APUs. For passengers the most discomfort will be caused by the inability to have the packs heating/cooling the cabin during a turn.

I would say the CRJ-200 APU are the worst of all! and that includes the APU intake door!
 
Dalmd88
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:51 pm



Quoting Ewmahle (Reply 5):
Thanks for your quick responses. So an In-Op APU is presumably not of any immediate concern to the well-being of the Airliner, so then when will they take the time to fix or replace the APU? Is it something they could do at the end of the day and have running again by the next morning or will US simply wait until the plane can be taken out of service and put in to MX?

Most operators will try to get an inop apu fixed as quick as possible. They would most likely reroute the aircraft so it can overnight at a capable mtc station within a day or two. This gives you a few times to troubleshoot and line up any parts before the MEL runs out. Operationally an inop apu air source is a bit of a pain for ramp. It is a possible cause for delays. You now have to round up a start cart and hope that it works.
 
777wt
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:57 pm



Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 18):
Most operators will try to get an inop apu fixed as quick as possible. They would most likely reroute the aircraft so it can overnight at a capable mtc station within a day or two. This gives you a few times to troubleshoot and line up any parts before the MEL runs out. Operationally an inop apu air source is a bit of a pain for ramp. It is a possible cause for delays. You now have to round up a start cart and hope that it works.

One time there was a a/c that had problems accepting GPU...they deferred the GPU and had to use the APU for the time...until they went to BUF...then the APU spitted out a fireball then parts was shooting out of the tail while at the gate.

They sent a road trip...attempted to fix the GPU system, attempted to start the plane by powerng it up on batteries then airstart it...this set off a engine exceedence message which was a no go...resetting it while the engines was running didn't work.

So back to fixing the GPU, they didn't figure it out until a few days later someone crossed the wires installing the GPU socket in the plane.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:07 pm



Quoting DALMD88 (Reply 18):
You now have to round up a start cart and hope that it works.

Why hope.Even GSEs have a Fixed Mx schedule.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
2H4
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Tod

Wed Jan 30, 2008 9:15 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
Why hope.

Involved in another bet already, Mel?  eyebrow 

2H4
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lowrider
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Wed Jan 30, 2008 10:33 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 20):
Why hope

Because the time you find out that a huffer or a GPU is inop is usually the same time you need it most.

Quoting 777WT (Reply 16):
I would say the CRJ-200 APU are the worst of all!

My experience with them was quite good. Just don't start them above FL250.

Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 17):
I noticed quite a few recently that were just SCREAMING,

This is part of how the ERJ earned the WSCOD nickname.
Proud OOTSK member
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:45 am



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 21):
Involved in another bet already, Mel?

Bad habit .... heres compensation ???
 wink 

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 22):
Because the time you find out that a huffer or a GPU is inop is usually the same time you need it most

Not really.If mantained as per approved scheduled & tested daily,the chances are less.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
greasespot
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Thu Jan 31, 2008 11:08 pm

We called it giving the plane a blowjob in the hangar......Imagine the explaining i had to do when I radioed out that I would be there in 10 mins go give the plane a blowjob.....oops....but it was funny as hell after all appologies to ground freq for my slip up...

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
ReidYYZ
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:27 am

At one of my former employers, they had a length of hose with a coupling at each end. One coupling had a fork protruding that would hold open the split flapper check valve open. The aircraft with the U/S apu got the regular coupling hooked up. The a/c with the servicable apu was hooked up with the forked coupling, with the apu off or maybe bleed off (not sure, been too many years). Starting the apu, with the flappers held open, you could get a cross bleed start from the one aircraft to the other, no jet starter required. I saw it work once with a pair of B727's.
 
BritPilot777
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:39 am

Am I right in thinking that (basic step by step), the air start would blow air into the engine, thus turning N1 and the following rotors / stators compressing the air further into the compression chamber where once the required N1 is met, the fuel is added and ignited? Or am I missing a step?

BritPilot777
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Tod

Fri Feb 01, 2008 1:59 am



Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 26):
Am I right in thinking that (basic step by step), the air start would blow air into the engine, thus turning N1 and the following rotors / stators compressing the air further into the compression chamber where once the required N1 is met, the fuel is added and ignited? Or am I missing a step?

BritPilot777

No. You blow the air into a starter, which is a miniature turbine running at very high speed (around 100.000 rpm). This roation is reduced in the starter by a planetary gear (at the same time increasing the torque) and transfered via a free wheeling mechanism and a centrifugal force clutch to an input shaft on the main accessory gearbox. This in turn will turn the N2 shaft. N1 moves solely by air blown through it's turbine by the N2 compressor.

There existed some older engines (1950s vintage), where the start air was blown directly onto the engine turbine through a small nozzle.

Jan
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Airgypsy
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Fri Feb 01, 2008 3:56 am

The 727 was designed without an APU. (Initially it was design with only two engines. This is why the APU is in the RH wheel well. No CG margin left for a tail installation after the third engine #2 was installed.)

USAir (now US Airways) has procedures for Buddy Starts - using a hose between two aircraft to transfer air from a running aircraft to the one with out an on-board air source. Used for getting a stranded aircraft off an airport that has no GPU.

The US Navy F-4 used impingement starting (100 psi through a nozzle onto the HPT (High Pressure Turbine) from an external source).

Some aircraft (I believe the 727 was among them) were equipped with cartridge starters that used black powder as the gas source to turn the turbine starter. Most 50s-60s military aircraft were equipped to use this as a primary or alternate starting air source. It was a breech adapter on the side of the starter turbine inlet. Air hose or cartridge. This facilitated the 8 engine simultaneous start on the B-52.

On High Bypass engines, the fan can be tied off and the core engine (N2) (referred to as a gas generator) may be started to idle for inspection of the engine without the fan turning. The fan may be turning backwards during start with no affect on the starting of the engine (it will stop, then commence correct rotation).

Small turbine engines and APUs use electric starters. Some are starter/generators.

No APU No ETOPS. The Garret 331 based APU can be started at altitudes up to 40K ft (767).

The air systems in airliners is a constant pressure type with the volume regulated by the size of the duct. Engine start ducts are BIG. This is why the air-conditioning is shut off during starts. And you thought is was so you could listen to the symphony of howling gears as the gearbox is reverse loaded to turn the HP section (N2)! A fine whining to start any day.
Airgypsy
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Fri Feb 01, 2008 6:05 am



Quoting Airgypsy (Reply 28):
No APU No ETOPS

I wish you guys would stop saying this. Maybe no APU no ETOPS on your aircraft.

Our B767 requires APU for 180min ETOPS, but with 138min ETOPS APU can be INOP.
Our B777 APU can be inop for 180min ETOPS.

Quoting Airgypsy (Reply 28):
Small turbine engines and APUs use electric starters.

The APU on the B777 has an air starter.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:01 am



Quoting Airgypsy (Reply 28):
The 727 was designed without an APU. (Initially it was design with only two engines. This is why the APU is in the RH wheel well.

Apparently those could sometimes blow a huge tongue of flame around the wing. Must have made for several brown trouser moments among the pax.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Fri Feb 01, 2008 10:17 am

I always found High volume "Ideal" Three hoses for starting a B757 with RB211-535 Engines very disapointing.
although We do it with Two,thanks to the lower OAT at BOM compared to other places in the country.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
wirelock
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:19 am

hey all,

the apu engine start cxan be inop for a number of reasons.. not just APU INOP. it could be something as simple as the apu bleed pushbutton switch. the apu run ok but the air bleed valve might not open for different reasons. the apu generator would not be affected.
i think also that this would affect ETOPS to a lesser extent as in having the apu generator operative.
 
atct
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:56 pm

Yea,
We did the airstarts at DL (ramp rats).

Clint
Nothing like the sound of a 30 yr old airstart starting up the 5:30AM Md-80 to ATL  Smile That'll wake everyone up in a 5 mile radius lol.
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ReidYYZ
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:26 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 27):
This in turn will turn the N2 shaft.

Just to add to it, the starter turns the N3 rotor on RR. This is of course not for you, MD11, it's for those who don't know.

Quoting Airgypsy (Reply 28):
The fan may be turning backwards during start with no affect on the starting of the engine (it will stop, then commence correct rotation).

In engine run procedures for mtce runs, for the Tristar RB211's, you had to have max motor speed (24-25%) and have positive N1 rotation prior fuel on. For the A310 GE CF6's, at least 15% N2 rotation. I usually wait for the max motor (max, if you waited for it was 23-24%ish) as it is only about there that you actually get positive N1. Flight crew just do the min. 15% and the gas comes on. On windy days the N1 fan is still spinning backwards with fuel and ignition on. It is allowed, but I can't imagine it is good for it, that's why i personally wait for the max. It is maybe another 30 seconds, and well within starter duty limits.

Yet for the A330, you have the no-brainer auto start. I like to manually start it. It is much more involved, and the flight crew don't use it. There could be a problem that nobody is aware of until the auto start gets MEL'ed and manual hasn't been used in some time.
 
rfdramp
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:38 pm



Quoting ATCT (Reply 33):
Nothing like the sound of a 30 yr old airstart starting up the 5:30AM Md-80 to ATL

I have no idea how anyone near RFD can sleep during December. UPS usually has at least 5 airstarts running from 1AM-3AM. Combine that with all the APU equipped aircraft having their APUs running and it gets to be a loud ramp.
 
pilotpip
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:35 am



Quoting EssentialPowr (Reply 36):

Hey 20 something year old new guy $18 an hour erj FO...there are a lot of rampers that were doing the job while you were still in high school chess club, before 9/11, during strikes... A Navy E3 on the flight deck of CVN-72 probably ends up making less than that due to the hours they work, but I'd bet 5 paychecks that you couldn't hack that job with your attitude and background, and further that you've never been in the military. Why is that?

Allow me to provide a leadership (just 1) lesson, and one in which a lot of "dudes" of your caliber need desperately:

One's hourly wage doesn't correlate to capability, intelligence, dedication or professionalism. Heads up rampers and flight deck guys have prevented numerous incidents because of attention to detail.

Best of luck in your career-

[Edited 2008-02-01 21:05:46]

One's hourly wage correlates directly. When that hourly wage is so low that turnover is rampant, and people are not adequately trained they don't do the job right nor do they care if it's done right. Go take a look at a contract ramp facility once in a while. Compare it to mainline employees who are well compensated and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. My captain had to stop all flight ops out of our hub a month ago because the deice crew was spraying type IV prior to deicing.

I guess the six years (the last two of which I was a supervisor and had to deal with the above problems first-hand) I did this job while going to college and instructing would prove you wrong. It's a very difficult job, and requires long hours in a dangerous environment where the equipment isn't the only thing that can kill you.

Lesson number two: You should never stereotype.
DMI
 
cancidas
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:23 am



Quoting PHLapproach (Reply 3):
UGHHH, my ears are bleeding just thinking about my companies air start trucks. One little I would like to add, A&P's use to do air starts. But now it's fleet service that does them.

which trucks do you guys have? we've had the old stewart & stevenson huffer carts forever in LGA, they work better than the new ones that keep breaking down. we've got a huge old hobart 400hz gpu that i used each and every time we har a CR2 with no power on the ramp. every time some heard that start up they knew it was me and what i was doing. =D

Quoting FlyMatt2Bermud (Reply 7):
I heard a DC8 crew in the Middle East actually convinced a fire rescue vehicle to spray high pressure water through an outboard engine to get it turning enough to start the engine. The ground huffer and aircraft APU were both inop. It was not an approved procedure and the word was the captain was disciplined, but he made his schedule so his punishment wasn't too severe. I have put in a call to the guy who gave me the story, perhaps he can elaborate.

please! i'd love to hear more about that one...

Quoting Airgypsy (Reply 27):
USAir (now US Airways) has procedures for Buddy Starts - using a hose between two aircraft to transfer air from a running aircraft to the one with out an on-board air source. Used for getting a stranded aircraft off an airport that has no GPU.

this is the first that i've heard about this one. can you elaborate? is it in the GOM?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:26 pm



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 35):

Lesson number two: You should never stereotype.



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 35):
One's hourly wage correlates directly.

A stereotype?

Apparently your 1st post about a "$6/hr ramper" has been deleted, so I believe my point has been made.
 
N231YE
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Sat Feb 02, 2008 4:12 pm

Could it also be that the APU was not running in the first place, to save fuel? I know at CLE, YV (operating as UA Express) almost always started their CRJs using an air truck, and I do not recall their APUs being run often while on the ramp.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:04 pm



Quoting Cancidas (Reply 36):
this is the first that i've heard about this one. can you elaborate? is it in the GOM?

Interesting term "Buddy starts"  Smile I think I'll use it often.
Out here we call it Aircraft to Aircraft pneumatic starts.
Very usefull if there is no Air start cart around but a serviceable aircraft,the only hitch is to have the length of hose needed.

regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
JayDub
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:23 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 39):
Out here we call it Aircraft to Aircraft pneumatic starts.

We just called it "giving the plane a blow job".
"Travel is only glamorous in retrospect." - Paul Theroux
 
wilco737
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:24 pm



Quoting JayDub (Reply 40):
We just called it "giving the plane a blow job".

 rotfl   rotfl 

Very nice Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
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474218
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:37 pm



Quoting JayDub (Reply 40):
We just called it "giving the plane a blow job".

In the USAF the air start cart part number was as the "MA1A".

Just outside Kadena AFB, Okinawa was a street called MA1A Alley. Its where you when to get your air start.
 
777wt
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:57 am



Quoting ReidYYZ (Reply 24):
At one of my former employers, they had a length of hose with a coupling at each end. One coupling had a fork protruding that would hold open the split flapper check valve open. The aircraft with the U/S apu got the regular coupling hooked up. The a/c with the servicable apu was hooked up with the forked coupling, with the apu off or maybe bleed off (not sure, been too many years). Starting the apu, with the flappers held open, you could get a cross bleed start from the one aircraft to the other, no jet starter required. I saw it work once with a pair of B727's.



Quoting Airgypsy (Reply 27):
USAir (now US Airways) has procedures for Buddy Starts - using a hose between two aircraft to transfer air from a running aircraft to the one with out an on-board air source. Used for getting a stranded aircraft off an airport that has no GPU.

Isn't there a check valve in the air start system that prevents the air from coming out the air start connection? I thought there was another one higher up in the ductwork leading to the ATS (Air Turbine Starter), ie a real one and not a thin flapper one that leaks a lil air.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:52 am



Quoting 777WT (Reply 43):
Isn't there a check valve in the air start system that prevents the air from coming out the air start connection? I thought there was another one higher up in the ductwork leading to the ATS (Air Turbine Starter), ie a real one and not a thin flapper one that leaks a lil air.

Thats true on both B737 & B757s.
The Check valve is on top.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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seabosdca
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:28 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 42):
air start cart part

Hmm.... fixing broken cart... fart start cart art?  boggled 
 
lowrider
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:11 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 42):
Its where you when to get your air start.

What would the implications of a hung start be in this scenario?
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777wt
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Wed Feb 06, 2008 12:53 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 44):
hats true on both B737 & B757s.
The Check valve is on top.
regds
MEL

That said, so there would be no loss of air during a crossbleed start via the air start connection nozzle. I don't see how this can work ie if you want to air start a 757 from a 737 or the same.

US airways must have removed the check valve and put a manual operated valve in place in order for it to airstart another plane.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Wed Feb 06, 2008 9:10 am



Quoting 777WT (Reply 47):
That said, so there would be no loss of air during a crossbleed start via the air start connection nozzle

There is an Adapter available that manually pushes the Checkvalve open in such cases for aircraft to Aircraft starts.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Using The Air Truck To Start My 737 Flight Today

Wed Feb 06, 2008 10:54 am



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 48):
Quoting 777WT (Reply 47):
That said, so there would be no loss of air during a crossbleed start via the air start connection nozzle

There is an Adapter available that manually pushes the Checkvalve open in such cases for aircraft to Aircraft starts.
regds
MEL

We regularly do pack heat exchanger washes during our A-checks on the 737NG (cleaning the heat exchangers in the ram air ducts). This is done by opening the inspection panels in the ram air ducts and attaching a special spray nozzle in their place. This nozzle uses compressed air (which we take from the ground air start connector) to atomise water with a detergent to wash the dirt out off the heat exchangers, while the pack is running. To keep the butterfly flapper valve open, we use a tool, which looks like a simple fork made out of sheet aluminium. It gets held in position by the hose connector. The dirty water gets ejected through the ram air outlet and caught in big tubs (to prevent a mess in the hangar). Afterwards the heat exchangers are being rinsed with clear water.

Jan
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