2H4
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:19 am

This is an F-16 on a visual landing to Aspen, Colorado at night.

The right half of the view is the pilot's normal visual path to the runway during darkness - in other words totally black.

The left side of the screen is the Forward Looking Infrared which paints the heat signature of the outside terrain for pilots so they can see at night as though it were daytime.



My question - based upon the apparent altitude (AGL) at the start of the video, is that rate of descent abnormally high?

2H4

[Edited 2008-02-14 20:53:23]
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OPNLguy
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:59 am

Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
This is an F-16 on a visual landing to Aspen, Colorado at night.


It's actually from a Gulfstream belonging to one of the outfits that makes EVS/FLIR equipment...

Original video is here: http://www.gulfstream.com/gulfstreamevs/evs_window.cfm and there are also clips from low-viz approaches, plus flights near terrain in Idaho and near the Tetons. Impressive technology....

As for the altitude readout, I can't even make it out...

[Edited 2008-02-14 21:07:07]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
2H4
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:21 am

Thanks for the correction, OPNL. That'll teach me to trust email forwards....

2H4
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OPNLguy
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:50 am

No prob...

The low-viz clip is pretty good too... As they're going missed, they even see a bird on the EVS...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
YYZSaabGuy
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:45 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
My question - based upon the apparent altitude (AGL) at the start of the video, is that rate of descent abnormally high?

Cool video - thanks for posting!

To address your question: descending from the 1,000' callout to 10' AGL took 48 seconds more or less, so a descent rate of approximately 1250 feet per minute. Can't find data on this forum, but I seem to recall reading that airlines target descents of approx 700 feet per minute as being best to optimize passenger comfort. If that's correct, then the Aspen sink rate was quick. On the other hand, convention might be different for bizjets, particularly those with no passengers (I'm assuming this last, given that it was obviously a test flight). In any event, the approach didn't exceed, or probably even come near, the structural limits of the airframe.
 
gkyip
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Fri Feb 15, 2008 8:49 pm

That's nice, good video.

Would this eventually be certified to allow pilots to land purely with visual reference to the EVS or is this simply an aid to SA?

Gary
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DeltaGuy
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Fri Feb 15, 2008 11:26 pm



Quoting Gkyip (Reply 5):
Would this eventually be certified to allow pilots to land purely with visual reference to the EVS or is this simply an aid to SA?

Not right now, the system is considered a "Category 1 Visual System", allowing you to descend to 100' on a CAT I approach, then you must be able to make out the field visually. Gulfstreams (the ones Ive flown at least), are not equipped with an Autoland system like your average airliner is.

Quoting YYZSaabGuy (Reply 4):
On the other hand, convention might be different for bizjets, particularly those with no passengers (I'm assuming this last, given that it was obviously a test flight).

Indeed...plus Aspen has alot of different dynamics associated with it's approaches and go-arounds, RNP, things like that. I know the pilots who flew this approach. Aspen is constantly considered as the best test-site for EVS and SV-PFD (Synthetic Vision displayed on the PFD).

It's a really neat system, dig around and you may be able to find some videos from the new EVS II...lighter, smaller, and much more capable. Seeing it superimposed on the newest HUD to be flown on the 450/550 is even better.

DeltaGuy
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EssentialPowr
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:54 am



Quoting YYZSaabGuy (Reply 4):
but I seem to recall reading that airlines target descents of approx 700 feet per minute as being best to optimize passenger comfort

No, 700 - 750 fpm is the descent rate on a 3 degree glideslope in a zero wind condition. With a headwind, that value decreases and therefore increases with a tailwind.
 
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KLASM83
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:24 am

Quoting YYZSaabGuy (Reply 4):

Probably its to avoid the conveniently placed mountains along the approach. DME+OR+GPS-C" target="_blank">This shows that there is some interesting terrain on approach. It also indicates that from the 6 DME of DBL to 11 DME you go from 12200 to about the ASE airfield TPA, or something close to it.

Working every day here (esp at night) the planes-both the biz jets and the pax planes- seem just to drop in and at the last minute stabilizes to make a pretty good landing.

edited for error I saw

[Edited 2008-02-15 20:26:50]
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DeltaGuy
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Sun Feb 17, 2008 12:30 am

http://youtube.com/watch?v=MOCIikZ4tCU&feature=user

Here is an excellent video of the G450 HUD in use, with the EVS operating. This HUD appears in the PlaneView equipped G350/450/500/550.

DeltaGuy
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EMBQA
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:23 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 2):
That'll teach me to trust email forwards....

.......and you're an A.net Editor....??? What happened to checking your facts before posting.....??? I think the dead give away would be the two pilots talking about the pre-landing check list and which taxiway they wanted to take.  Smile

[Edited 2008-02-16 19:27:17]
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2H4
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Sun Feb 17, 2008 3:13 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 10):

Sorry, EMB. The version I was sent didn't have sound, and I don't typically make a point to learn HGS symbology unless I'm the one flying the approach.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 10):
What happened to checking your facts before posting.....???

I asked you the same thing when you claimed that the spoilers on "most aircraft" lift very slightly when the flaps are retracted. Still waiting for an explanation on that one...  Wink

2H4
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EMBQA
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:25 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):
Still waiting for an explanation on that one...

Who..? What...? Big grin Don't know to what you refer...?

Yea, that video is a few years old. I saw it first maybe 3 years ago. VERY cool system.
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HaveBlue
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Mon Feb 18, 2008 5:34 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
My question - based upon the apparent altitude (AGL) at the start of the video, is that rate of descent abnormally high?

They were on autopilot from the beginning of the video until just below 1,000', just an fyi.


Very cool video, thanks for sharing!
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sprout5199
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:20 pm



Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 6):
Not right now, the system is considered a "Category 1 Visual System", allowing you to descend to 100' on a CAT I approach, then you must be able to make out the field visually. Gulfstreams (the ones Ive flown at least),

DeltaGuy, have you flown with these systems? If yes, does the fact that the EVS is about 5 feet below you mess with you depth perception? In the video, the numbers go by first on the "normal" vision and then on the EVS. Seems to me that would be a little disorienting at first.

Dan in Jupiter
 
airfoilsguy
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Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Mon Feb 18, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 1):

It's actually from a Gulfstream belonging to one of the outfits that makes EVS/FLIR equipment..

That funny because throughout the entire video I was thinking "Why is a F-16 landing at Aspen?"  Silly
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dragon6172
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RE: F-16 Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Mon Feb 18, 2008 8:28 pm

Maybe we can get the thread title changed to something more appropriate? A good video and technology, watched it on the Gulfstream site a few weeks ago.
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donniecs
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RE: Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:39 am

The Gulfstream EVS system was a decent system but not perfect. The image it the HUD had a tendency to appear left or right of center when used with the HUD unless "sited" exactly on target (better than required per the CMP card). Also unless it was CAVOK outside the EVS image didn't quite live up to standard. The joke is the best that the EVS will work is in the simulator and most operators will say the system was nice but waste of money and they don't have a lot of faith in it.

On a few occasions the EVS has help us out as our fleet only hold Cat 1 certification. A HUD and EVS combination is a sort of easy way to maintain a quasi CAT 2 certification. On a HUD/EVS equipped Gulfstream during HUD/EVS operations, only the PF has to identify the runway environment at DH, then you’re allowed to decent another 100' not to exceed 100" AGL. After you descend another 100' below DH, the PNF has to have visual on the runway landing environment and the responsibility for the go-around call then lies on the PNF. So theoretically in laymen’s terms on a CAT 1 certified aircraft with the HUD/EVS system you can go to CAT II minima (even on a CAT 1 approach), that’s if you have faith in your EVS and it picks up the runway at 200'.

Gulfstream just released an ASC for a "generation II" system that is supposed to be quite a bit better than the first generation system, although I don't have any experience with it. Generation II has now been incorporated into production as an option but I don’t believe any operators have yet upgraded their pre generation II systems.

The video posted was of a generation 1 system without the HUD image. It has some HUD symbology in the video but is the image displayed on the cockpit (via CDU, Airshow display or on the Planeview system).

By the way this is my first meaningful airliner.net post after observing for quite some time, so I hope this is up to the appropriate technical standard and hello to all the .netters out there!
Charlie - Gulfstream flight mechanic
 
2H4
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RE: Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:44 am



Quoting DonnieCS (Reply 17):
this is my first meaningful airliner.net post after observing for quite some time

Welcome sir...great to have you aboard!

2H4
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apodino
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RE: Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Sat Mar 01, 2008 4:16 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Thread starter):
My question - based upon the apparent altitude (AGL) at the start of the video, is that rate of descent abnormally high?

Having dispatched planes into ASE, I can tell you what I know about the airport. The approach into ASE uses a descent angle of 9.69 Degrees (Source: Jepp 13-1 plate for ASE). Thats over three times the normal 3 degree descent rate. So yes, the rate of descent is a little high, but like LCY, this is normal procedure. The lowest minimums you will get in ASE will be 2 or 3 miles, depending on the approach category (Cat D ac not authorized to shoot the VOR/GPS C approach), with a decision height of 2380 AGL (or 10,200 MSL). Also, the MCA at the final approach fix is 12,200, which is 6.4 miles from the runway threshold. That means you have 6.4 miles to descent nearly 4,400 feet to land. Thats steep.

Air Wisconsin had a special procedure for ASE exclusive to them when they flew the 146's into there, which made the minimums a bit lower. But its still one tough airport to navigate. I still can't believe the FAA is letting Skywest fly RJ's into that place.
 
DashTrash
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RE: Gulfstream Flir Landing At Aspen (video)

Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:33 am

Only been to ASE in the sim, but it does take a higher rate of descent to make the field than most places. High altitude airport, so the true airspeed is going to be higher than at normal elevations. This is going to lead to higher groundspeeds necessitating a higher descent rate. I think you only have 6.5 miles or something like that to lose almost 5000 ft on the VOR approach.

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