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jetjack74
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Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:44 am

With DL buying up the 757-231/2Q8's from the AA/TW era, can the original -232's be used on Transatlantic flights or do they lack the provisions to be modified?
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FlagshipAZ
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 3:49 am

I believe the aircraft can be fitted with extra tanks. AA did this with a few of their own -223s,
and called them 757-223 (ET). Of course, I would think you have to sacrifice some payload
revenue for the added weight.
This is a tech question, best left to the experts over in the tech forum.
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iflyatldl
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:11 am

Good question, I wonder if TW had theirs modified or if the package was available, or what morphed into ETOPS. I'd never heard of 757's doing Trans-Atlantic until TW.
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:30 am

It can be done, but it's expensive. All the parts on the plane have to be brought up to ETOPS standards as well as the maintenance facilies and mechanics. Then the plane has to be flown for several months on long flights that simulate ETOPS conditions. A friend of mine who is a retired pilot for America West said America West spent millions of dollars getting ETOPS ratiings for a subfleet of their existing 757's that is now used for flights from Phoenix to Hawaii.

It would only make sense to upgrade high MTOW 757's to ETOPS, so many of the earliest build 757's aren't worth upgrading, because the engines aren't powerful enough. That's why US Airways had to buy some ex-ATA ETOPS 757's for their ETOPS fleet. The US Airways fleet has some of the oldest 757's including many that were originally delivered to the launch customer Eastern Airlines. That's also why BA is buying used 757's for its new OpenSkies airline. Most of the original lower MTOW BA 757's have been sold off to other passenger airlines or DHL for conversion to freighters.

[Edited 2008-02-15 20:31:20]
 
worldtraveler
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:40 am

I am not a tech expert but I believe that there are a couple errors in what has been said.

1. The fuel capacity of original and ETOPS 757s is the same, approx 75,000 pounds. I do not believe there are any extra tanks on long range 757s

2. Higher thrust engines are not needed in order for the 757 to be used for long-range flights. The original 2037 is suitable for long-range flights and I believe the ex-TW/AA 757s are 2037 powered.

---

3. The prime determinant of whether the 757s can operate on long-haul (8 plus hour flights) is the takeoff weight, which is dependent primarily on the wing structure, which was strengthened later in the 757 production run. Max TOW on the 757 is about 255K pounds; I believe DL's original 757s are in the 232K range.

4. ETOPS and long-range flight are not the same thing. The lower weight 757s can obtain ETOPS certification; they have the range to be able to operate 6 hr plus routes which could trigger the need for 180 minute ETOPS.
 
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jetjack74
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:44 am



Quoting Iflyatldl (Reply 2):
Good question, I wonder if TW had theirs modified or if the package was available, or what morphed into ETOPS. I'd never heard of 757's doing Trans-Atlantic until TW.

BA flew 757's between BHX and JFK in the 1990's

Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 3):
It can be done, but it's expensive.

I'm told that the 757-5500 series in our fleet cannot be, or runs along the lines of it being too expensive.
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gigneil
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:44 am



Quoting FlagshipAZ (Reply 1):
I believe the aircraft can be fitted with extra tanks. AA did this with a few of their own -223s,
and called them 757-223 (ET).

That just isn't true. The ET stands for ETOPS, not Extra Tank.

Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
2. Higher thrust engines are not needed in order for the 757 to be used for long-range flights.

Really depends. UA uses 2040s on their ETOPS fleet.

It all has to do with runway capabilities and your desired uplift. I doubt a 2037 can get a plane up at MTOW in all cases and weather.

NS
 
mark5388916
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:46 am



Quoting WorldTraveler (Reply 4):
I do not believe there are any extra tanks on long range 757s

I do nto know of any civilian/commercial airlines with extra tanks but I know the USAF C-32 (aka Air Force 2) has them.

Mark
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iflyatldl
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:50 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Reply 5):
Quoting Iflyatldl (Reply 2):
Good question, I wonder if TW had theirs modified or if the package was available, or what morphed into ETOPS. I'd never heard of 757's doing Trans-Atlantic until TW.

BA flew 757's between BHX and JFK in the 1990's

That''s just it, I'd never heard of 757's doing Trans-Atlantic until TW and then BA not much later-mid 90's. I just wonder how it evolved. TW just sticks in my mind as the first.
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worldtraveler
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:51 am



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Really depends. UA uses 2040s on their ETOPS fleet.

I believe UA went with higher thrust engines because they are used from Hawaii which has a number of airports with short runways.

Boeing's website shows performance statistics for the 757 at 255K max TOW with 2037 engines. 2040s are not needed for 255K MTOW. The 757 is one of the best powered commercial aircraft available. Even the lowest thrust 757 is better powered than many other aircraft.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 4:53 am



Quoting Gigneil (Reply 6):
Really depends. UA uses 2040s on their ETOPS fleet.

I think I found the PR when TWA ordered these birds.
http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/1996/news.release.960212.html

note If this is the right PR then they are 2037s
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ikramerica
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For Etop

Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:12 am

People are confusing ETOPS with TATL. There is no requirement that an ETOPS 757 can reach the USA from Europe. 737NG are ETOPS capable but the standard passenger configurations can't reach across the Atlantic.

So if the question being asked is: can the original DL 757s be modified for TATL, the answer is it would cost too much.
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:36 am



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 11):
People are confusing ETOPS with TATL. There is no requirement that an ETOPS 757 can reach the USA from Europe.

No, but why go to all the expense of converting a non ETOPS 757 to ETOPS if not for routes of transatlantic range. It's possible to buy brand new 737's with an ETOPS 180 certification directly from the factory for routes that don't require that much range. According to what I heard, it took America West almost a year per plane to get ETOPS certificates.
 
SXDFC
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:19 am

Can someone clarify please what the numbers 2040 5500 mean ? I am guessing engine types?
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DL_Mech
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:29 am



Quoting SXDFC (Reply 13):
Can someone clarify please what the numbers 2040 5500 mean ?

5500 is a NWA ship series IIRC.

The 2040 is a Pratt and Whitney engine.

2XXX is a series 2000 engine

X0XX is for a Boeing (1=Airbus,2=Illyushin,3=Not used, 4=MDC)

XX40 is 40K lbs of thrust
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kc135topboom
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:02 am

All ETOPS is an operations for an airplane with only two engines more than 103, 120, 137, 180, 210, or 240 minutes from a suitable landing airport for that airplane type. This does not exclusively mean over water operations. It can also cover ice covered areas (Syberia, Antarticia, parts of Canada or Alaska), and large mountainous areas (Canada, Alaska, China, Tibet, Afghanistan, etc.).

ETOPS has nothing to do with the original airplane range, as long as it can fly at least 103 minutes, or more from a suitable alternate airport.

ETOPS is mostly an airplane maintenance and reliability requirement, with some additional requirements for the crew.

If an airline elected to, they could obtain an ETOPS for a B-737-200 or a DC-9. It is just not economical enough to get ETOPS for those types.

So, to answer the original question in this thread, yes, the original DL B-757-232s (with the 232,000lb MTOW) can obtain an ETOPS qualification. But, it will cost DL a lot of money to do it.

Extra fuel tanks are a seperate question. Yes, they can be installed, but the same MTOW still must be applied unless there isdditional modifications made to the airplane. The USAF C-32A/Bs are all 255,000lb MTOW and have additional fuel tanks, carrying up to 100,000lbs of fuel, total. But these airplanes do not fly with 255 passengers and 20 tonnes of cargo.
 
flynavy
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:18 am



Quoting Jetjack74 (Thread starter):

Why would DL need to modify their own 757s when they can just wait for the batch of ex-NW birds to arrive?  Big grin

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EMBQA
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 5:19 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):

SPOT ON......!!!! ETOPS has NOTHING to do with life jackets, rafts and fuel takes....It has to do with the way the plane is maintained and what systems are installed on the plane. You can not take any old 757 and make it ETOPS.. it must first meet the basic requirments.
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dl757md
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:25 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):
ETOPS has nothing to do with the original airplane range, as long as it can fly at least 103 minutes, or more from a suitable alternate airport.

ETOPS is anything over 60 minutes at one engine out cruise speed from the nearest suitable alernate airport.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:27 pm

Whats this talk about extra tanks on a B752.Never heard of them on the B752 atleast.If present where would it be in the Aft bulk hold?

ETOPS require certain Equipment to be present & serviceable in adequate numbers.
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movingtin
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sun Feb 17, 2008 1:12 am



Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 12):
According to what I heard, it took America West almost a year per plane to get ETOPS certificates

Etops is a program, It took AW a year to get ETOPS certified, Not a certificate for each plane. If an airline does not have sufficiant experiance with an Equipment type, they must prove over time that they can operate it safely.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sun Feb 17, 2008 6:43 am



Quoting FlyingClrs727 (Reply 3):
That's also why BA is buying used 757's for its new OpenSkies airline. Most of the original lower MTOW BA 757's have been sold off to other passenger airlines or DHL for conversion to freighters.

BA is going to use B757 that are currently in BA service for OpenSkies. They are ETOPS built aircraft. They will have winglets fitted.
All the original BA B757 have left the fleet and been converted to freighters by Boeing. They were never ETOPS aircraft.
 
stratosphere
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:31 am



Quoting Movingtin (Reply 20):
Etops is a program, It took AW a year to get ETOPS certified, Not a certificate for each plane

You are exactly right...FedEx is heavy into the ETOPS program for the 777 but it seems to me they are trying to reinvent the wheel instead of picking from several airlines who operate an ETOPS program and have been through it and getting the best from their individual programs.
 
777wt
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:08 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 17):
SPOT ON......!!!! ETOPS has NOTHING to do with life jackets, rafts and fuel takes....It has to do with the way the plane is maintained and what systems are installed on the plane. You can not take any old 757 and make it ETOPS.. it must first meet the basic requirments.

That is what ETOPS is about.

ie one mechanic may service the oil on one engine but may NOT service the other engine oil, he/she can crosscheck the other engine and the same goes for the other mechanic.

On the other hand, a long time ago in aero college, I was told by a professor that if a mechanic replaced a part on a plane that's ETOPS certified and flown on a ETOPS route, and the part fails...the mechainc gets the axe from the job.
Is that true?
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sun Feb 17, 2008 7:13 pm



Quoting 777WT (Reply 23):
On the other hand, a long time ago in aero college, I was told by a professor that if a mechanic replaced a part on a plane that's ETOPS certified and flown on a ETOPS route, and the part fails...the mechainc gets the axe from the job.
Is that true?

Well it can't be, I am still working.
Seriously how can a mechanic stop a part failing in the future? It would mean that for every component changed that you had to fire someone! You wouldn't have anyone left after a few months.
 
EMBQA
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Sun Feb 17, 2008 8:29 pm



Quoting 777WT (Reply 23):

The duel engine work part is true...but as far as parts failure, I doubt that.
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HAWK21M
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RE: Can The Original DL 757's Be Modified For ETOPs?

Mon Feb 18, 2008 6:38 am



Quoting 777WT (Reply 23):
On the other hand, a long time ago in aero college, I was told by a professor that if a mechanic replaced a part on a plane that's ETOPS certified and flown on a ETOPS route, and the part fails...the mechainc gets the axe from the job.
Is that true?

Unless proven to be deliberate.So No.
regds
MEL
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