jetset
Posts: 324
Joined: Thu Jun 21, 2001 3:24 am

NO Alternate IFR Operations

Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:32 pm

I have a question for the Flight Dispatchers out there.

On a typical average day with no significant weather to effect the flights or ATC
what is the percent of flights landing at your hubs are going No Alternate IFR.

Part 2 of the question

If operating under No Alternate IFR how much holding fuel do you add when landing at the hub at hub time.

Would like to hear from if possible the following
CO ref Ewr ops
DL ref ATL ops
UA ref ORD ops
NW ref MSP ops
US ref Phl ops
AA ref DFW ops


Rgds/Jetest
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:19 pm



Quoting JETSET (Thread starter):
On a typical average day with no significant weather to effect the flights or ATC
what is the percent of flights landing at your hubs are going No Alternate IFR.

If the forecast calls for 10 and clear all day, then 100% are going without alternates. The actual percentage depends on what the forecast calls for.

Quoting JETSET (Thread starter):
If operating under No Alternate IFR how much holding fuel do you add when landing at the hub at hub time.

If the airport is not over capacity for the time of arrival, why add fuel that's not required? However, if it is over capacity, then I will generally add 10-15 minutes' worth. They most likely won't use it, but it's there if they have to. Also, there's usually some amount of contingency fuel that they can burn into as well, and the reserve—if needed.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:34 pm

This month of the many flights I've flown, only two or three have required an alternate due to weather. One required a takeoff alternate due to low visibility and ceilings at the departure airport and the ones required destination alternates because the weather failed the 1-2-3 rule, but really wasn't that bad.

Checko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
DiscoverCSG
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:38 pm



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 2):
One required a takeoff alternate due to low visibility and ceilings at the departure airport

To this uninformed observer, the term "takeoff alternate" sounds a bit odd. It's not as if a plane can taxi up the interstate from BWI to PHL to take off if BWI is fogged in. What does this term mean?
 
thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Thu Apr 03, 2008 2:50 pm



Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 3):
To this uninformed observer, the term "takeoff alternate" sounds a bit odd. It's not as if a plane can taxi up the interstate from BWI to PHL to take off if BWI is fogged in. What does this term mean?

We are required to have a takeoff alternate in the event we have an engine failure on takeoff. In these situations, the weather at the departure airport is too low to successfully complete an instrument approach, but high enough that one can safely takeoff.

A takeoff alternate must be withing one hour flying time on a single engine.

Checko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:14 pm



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 4):
A takeoff alternate must be withing one hour flying time on a single engine.

Or two hours on aircraft with more than two engines.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
DiscoverCSG
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:36 pm



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 4):
We are required to have a takeoff alternate in the event we have an engine failure on takeoff. In these situations, the weather at the departure airport is too low to successfully complete an instrument approach, but high enough that one can safely takeoff.

A takeoff alternate must be withing one hour flying time on a single engine.

Checko



Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 5):
Or two hours on aircraft with more than two engines.

I see. So, theoretically, if a big storm hit the Hawaiian islands, for example, that was bad enough to close all airports for arrival, nobody could take off?
 
thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:00 am



Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 6):
I see. So, theoretically, if a big storm hit the Hawaiian islands, for example, that was bad enough to close all airports for arrival, nobody could take off?

Its a bit far fetched, however, yes, that would be true.
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:03 am



Quoting TheGreatChecko (Reply 7):
Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 6):
I see. So, theoretically, if a big storm hit the Hawaiian islands, for example, that was bad enough to close all airports for arrival, nobody could take off?

In this case, aircraft would be dispatched using island reserve.
Been there, done that, and yes it works quite well.
Must be used with caution however, least you be SOL.
 
thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:18 am



Quoting 411A (Reply 8):
In this case, aircraft would be dispatched using island reserve.
Been there, done that, and yes it works quite well.
Must be used with caution however, least you be SOL.

Does that apply to a destination alternate or a takeoff alternate.

Yes, it's far fetched to think that every airport in Hawaii would be below mins, but its an interesting academic exercise.
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
LAXintl
Posts: 20183
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 12:12 pm

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:01 am

As far as alternates, weather permitting idea is to operate as many flights a possible without listing one.

Carrying needless extra fuel is the equivalent of adding non revenue producing payload on a flight which only increases its overall fuel burn and cost.

Practically speaking, most the US is so densely populated with airports in case of the need for an unexpected diversion the fuel on board should safely allow finding a nearby suitable airport anyhow really.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
DiscoverCSG
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:22 am

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:06 pm



Quoting 411A (Reply 8):
In this case, aircraft would be dispatched using island reserve.
Been there, done that, and yes it works quite well.
Must be used with caution however, least you be SOL.

Okay, I'll bite.

What is island reserve?
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: NO Alternate IFR Operations

Sat Apr 05, 2008 4:07 am



Quoting DiscoverCSG (Reply 11):
What is island reserve?

Dispatch to a destination airport (such as a Pacific island) where no alternate is available.
Fuel requirements...

Normal trip fuel
Contingency fuel

plus

two hours fuel, at normal cruising altitude/speed.

Special destination weather conditions/forecast must prevail as well.
PanAmerican required 1000-3 for the entire period, as I recall.

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