peh
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Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:21 am

A Qantas 747-300 was diverted to Adelaide this afternoon after a window in the business class section "popped". The airline says the diversion was just a precaution because the windows were 4 panes thick.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/...dair/2008/03/29/1206207484533.html

I remember seeing this photo and thinking it was serious but later learnt that it happens more often than I thought and that a diversion is not always required.



Was this diversion an over-reaction by the pilots?

[Edited 2008-03-29 01:41:53]

[Edited 2008-03-29 01:42:22]
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Zkpilot
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-200

Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:37 am



Quoting Peh (Thread starter):
A Qantas 747-200

Qantas doesn't have any 747-200!
QF does however have 4x 747-300 which operates MEL-PER-SYD-PER-MEL
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LHRlocal
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-200

Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:39 am

This must be a -300 or -400, Qantas dont have 200s anymore.
 
peh
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:42 am

You're right. My mistake. I just managed to squeeze in the correction before the time limit ran out. Thanks.
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TruemanQLD
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:50 am

Another incident for a QF 743. Time to scrap them QANTAS! Probably just done so it seems that they take safety very seriously
 
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EK413
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:57 am



Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 4):
Another incident for a QF 743. Time to scrap them QANTAS! Probably just done so it seems that they take safety very seriously

Not yet... The B743's will remain in the fleet until 2009...

EK413
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jetmech
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:03 am



Quoting Peh (Thread starter):
The airline says the diversion was just a precaution because the windows were 4 panes thick.

747 passenger windows are made of three layers. They are the outer pane, mid pane and scratch pane. The outer pane is the primary pane, and it is designed to take the pressurisation loads during normal operations. The mid pane can also withstand the pressurisation loads if the outer pane fails, but it is meant to be a back up only. The scratch pane is the one you can touch when you put you hand up to the window in the cabin. It is there to protect the two structural panes from damage. It cannot take the pressurisation loads.

Regards, JetMech
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tonystan
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:06 am

I was recently working a 767 flight to the states where the window panel to the right of the First Officer started to develop a crack about 45 minutes out from arrival. I will never forget the look on the poor FO's face....he looked terrified even though the captain was giggling away to herself! LOL!

But this was actually the third experience of such I have experienced in two years so it does actually occur more than you would realise!
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anstar
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:27 am



Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 4):
Another incident for a QF 743. Time to scrap them QANTAS! Probably just done so it seems that they take safety very seriously

It is becoming a very frequent occurance with these old birds and ouyt of a fleet of 200 aircraft it is always these 4 that seem to have the major issues.... swiss cheese...swiss cheese... or have I been watching to much Air Crasdh investigation
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:59 am



Quoting Peh (Thread starter):
The airline says the diversion was just a precaution because the windows were 4 panes thick.

There should be Two Main panes [outer & mid] & the inner decorative one. Not four.
regds
MEL
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slimshady
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:30 pm



Quoting JetMech (Reply 6):
747 passenger windows are made of three layers. They are the outer pane, mid pane and scratch pane. The outer pane is the primary pane, and it is designed to take the pressurisation loads during normal operations. The mid pane can also withstand the pressurisation loads if the outer pane fails, but it is meant to be a back up only. The scratch pane is the one you can touch when you put you hand up to the window in the cabin. It is there to protect the two structural panes from damage. It cannot take the pressurisation loads

Yep.

The outer and mid panes are both made of stretched acyrlic. If you put a cabin window in the oven @350 degrees, it will shrink to about 1/2 its size.

The outer and mid pane, are found in chapter 56 (windows). If you go looking for the inner pane, it is located in chapter 25, (interiors) the scratch pane (the one you can touch, is technincally part of the interior.
 
scarebus03
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:08 pm



Quoting Tonystan (Reply 7):
But this was actually the third experience of such I have experienced in two years so it does actually occur more than you would realise!

With cockpit windows it does happen quiet frequently but they are designed to contain the failures without compromising the structural integrity of the window.

It is however not common for pax windows to go pop. I have changed thousands of pax windows on the 747 series and this stinks of bad maintenance practice (which appears to be an ongoing saga for QF at the moment).

They made the right decision to divert.

Best Regards
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laxboeingman
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:32 pm

I do not think that that was an over reaction. I think that the windows were damaged just enough. I also thought, that they retired the 300.

laxboeingman
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Ditzyboy
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:32 pm



Quoting Laxboeingman (Reply 12):
I also thought, that they retired the 300.

Qantas operates four (4) 743s, as detailed on its website. Check out the pics and TRs on this very website and the multitude of anecdotal evidence, as seen above and in many other posts on this site.
 
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Ryan h
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:41 pm

747-338 VH-EBW was the aircraft involved in the incident. A problem like that could lead to worse things like the window giving way altogether, so the diversion was required.

747-338 VH-EBY came about three hours later to pick the pax up.

An interesting day for us Adelaide spotters.
South Australian Spotter www.ryanhothersall.net
 
YWG747
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:00 pm



Quoting Peh (Thread starter):
Was this diversion an over-reaction by the pilots?

When you are dealing with passenger and crew safety.... nothing is an over reaction...
if he doesn't divert... karma says the window blows out....
 
gearup
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:02 pm



Quoting SlimShady (Reply 10):
The outer and mid pane, are found in chapter 56 (windows). If you go looking for the inner pane, it is located in chapter 25, (interiors) the scratch pane (the one you can touch, is technincally part of the interior.

Is the inner pane used on combi's in cargo mode?
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xtoler
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:09 pm

Better safe than sorry, it's the PIC's call to divert. Dealing with an older aircraft, even if the mx is great, sometimes you don't really want to take the chance of flying it all the way on a long haul if you have a closer divert. I just wonder how much louder that section of the cabin got.

As airtight as aircraft are, you will have leaks. A hole in the fuselage or in a door seal will not cause catasrophic failure as the movies would show. I'll tell you one thing though, a bad door seal on a J41 in the winter time between CHW and PIT really sucks. A bad door seal on an EMB145 sucks even more no matter where you go. The aircaft still flies, until we can get some MX done on it. That's just a write up sometimes and we can slap an MRI sticker on it. The pax only have to deal with it for one leg. If we don't change aircraft we're stuck with it for up to 6 legs. Then you have to wonder why we talk so lound at the hotel bar at the end of the day.
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airnewzealand
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:59 pm

Better safe than sorry...Exactly, and we as crew at Qantas take safety very very seriously!
A reason for the diversion would also be due to the Great Australian Bite.
Someone correct me if im wrong, but their is no diversion airport after Adelaide, so another three hours or so until PER is reached and you are out over water.

All i can say is lets get rid of them. I could write a book on the problems i have encountered on them!!! Grrrr...

Quoting EK413 (Reply 5):
Not yet... The B743's will remain in the fleet until 2009...

Hey EK413,
Interesting you heard that. Last i heard 2 will be gone by the end of this year (They are staying this long so they can operate FCO flights), leaving 2 to operate SYD-PER sectors. Pilots have been offered other positions i hear.

Cheers
 
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jetmech
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:39 am



Quoting Peh (Thread starter):

The Sun Herald had a picture today that was supposedly of the window. It definitely looked like the outer pane had blown out.

Quoting SlimShady (Reply 10):
The outer and mid pane, are found in chapter 56 (windows). If you go looking for the inner pane, it is located in chapter 25, (interiors) the scratch pane (the one you can touch, is technincally part of the interior.

I see. That makes sense, as the outer and mid pane are definitely much more important than the scratch pane, hence their inclusion in chapter 56.

Quoting Scarebus03 (Reply 11):
I have changed thousands of pax windows on the 747 series and this stinks of bad maintenance practice (which appears to be an ongoing saga for QF at the moment).

Perhaps there was a pre-exisiting defect in the pane? I guess that the pane could have been heavily scratched or exposed to chemicals prior to fitment, but I'm not sure a LAME would sign off a pane with visible mechanical damage. We used to carefully clean the outer and mid pane to remove any hand prints from them, so I would say that an outer pane with evident pre-exisiting mechanical damage would have been rejected.

Quoting Gearup (Reply 16):
Is the inner pane used on combi's in cargo mode?

I'd say so, as a combi is usually purchased with the carriage of passengers in mind. On 747 BCF's, I think they may actually replace the windows with aluminium blanks to reduce the maintenance burden that comes with them.

Regards, JetMech
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Starlionblue
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:53 am



Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 4):
Another incident for a QF 743. Time to scrap them QANTAS! Probably just done so it seems that they take safety very seriously

Why scrap them? Plenty of older aircraft are safely flying every day. It's not age that's the problem if there is a problem. Age just makes maintenance more expensive, not operations more risky.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Window "Pops" On Qantas 747-300

Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:59 am



Quoting TruemanQLD (Reply 4):
Another incident for a QF 743. Time to scrap them QANTAS! Probably just done so it seems that they take safety very seriously

Age has nothing to do with safety IF Mx is carried out as per schedule.
regds
MEL
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