Zuluaviator994
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Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Fri May 09, 2008 6:51 pm

Hey guys,
Just wondering, I did a search and couldn't find anything to exact on this subject, so I'm asking you.
I don't know if this is the correct forum, but I would believe so.
I'm doing this for a school project, so your information needs to be sited  devil 
Thanks, and please no biasness. I really need factual information with sites and sources
Rrgds
Barnes
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Starlionblue
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Fri May 09, 2008 11:09 pm

There is a lot of talk about how high altitude emissions might be affecting the atmosphere. Also there was the fact that during the days after 9/11 temperatures lowered a bit.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Zuluaviator994
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sat May 10, 2008 12:21 am

Ok, thanks.
But does anybody know what Global Warming is doing TO Aviation, not vise versa. Lol, very little I'm sure, but it has to be effecting the ticketing costs and such, any ideas?
Rgrds
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
 
georgiaame
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sat May 10, 2008 3:15 pm

Global warming greatly increases the price of jet fuel. Sweet crude is currently running at $126 per barrel as a direct result of the rise in planetary temperature. You can almost graph out the linear relationship between the two. Airlines are forced to merge and reduce capacity, again, a direct result of global warming. As your teachers/professors will tell you, temperatures are going up, read the newspapers, Delta now needs to merge with Northwest, USAir was bought out by a smaller company based in Arizona, not exactly the coolest state in the US, and now is in talks with United, a major, world wide carrier. Global warming reduces the efficiency of designing and building new aircraft types. It is no accident that the A380 is not in full production, nor that the 787 is a minimum of 15 months, or more, delayed. Global warming is most pronounced in Europe, as witnessed by the rapid melting of Swiss glaciers. Where is the A380 manufactured? Europe. Most Boeing aircraft used to be designed, manufactured, assembled in the cool Northwest state of Washington, before we were even aware of the Global Warming phenomenon. But not the new 787- sub systems and partial assembly is occurring world wide, with a major series of components being built in Europe. Global warming is obviously the most direct cause of this problem. Global warming will directly result in the need for greater military cargo airlift flights, if only for mercy supply missions. The globe gets hotter, hurricanes become more frequent and stronger (just look at the past 2 Atlantic seasons if you don't believe me!), more 3rd world countries are hit by the brunt of the storms, more relief flights, and more near stratospheric emissions dumping, more still more warming. You only have to look at the misery this past week in Myanmar if you don't believe me. Scientists and other experts like Nobel Winner Al Gore will tell you this is a direct result of Global Warming.

Morgan, before you were born, our country had a great President who loved to quote Russian proverbs to the dismay of his liberal friends, (who were themselves very strong supporters of the Soviet way of governing). My favorite was "Trust, but Verify". If they wish to retain their jobs, your teachers are forced by their bosses to spout politically correct platitudes, which have no bearing in fact. Global warming is the current big lie. It does not exist, but you run the risk of getting an F in your class if you refuse to go along with the myth. The logic I have given you can be spouted back, and will probably earn you a B. Quote Mr Gore in his totally discredited work of fiction "An Uncomfortable Truth" and you can earn an A. Trust me, but verify the facts for yourself. Global warming is a myth, and is being forced down the throats of a small, vocal, and very gullible segment of our society. The truth is, the reality is, that It has no effect on aviation, other than making it a little harder for an aircraft to lift off on a hot, dry airfield. And if the teacher does give you some flack should you quote this part of my explanation, your defense should be to ask him or her precisely WHAT temperature would you want the world to be? It stops them dead in their tracks each and every time, for obvious reasons. Best of luck to you. (Hint for real info: go to NASA web sites, and review shrinking icecaps on Mars, and increased storm frequency on Neptune during this past decade of Global Warming. Those facts should get you an F in no time!)
"Trust, but verify!" An old Russian proverb, quoted often by a modern American hero
 
avioniker
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sat May 10, 2008 4:51 pm

. . . What he said; WOW!
You want to see the effects? Just look out the window of your car driving by the unplanted fields today. All this warming has made it impossible to get an on-time flight out of the E. IA Airport unless it's on the overnight parked plane.
Gotta go with what Dr H. has to say. No effect other than to line someone else's pockets.
 

[Edited 2008-05-10 09:55:47]
One may educate the ignorance from the unknowing but stupid is forever. Boswell; ca: 1533
 
David L
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sat May 10, 2008 5:15 pm

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):

  

A+ for that!   

Edit: Oops, I thought this was in Civil Aviation so, on a more seious note, you might want to look at proposed taxes designed to penalise aviation's alleged contribution to global warming.

[Edited 2008-05-10 10:37:51]
 
Zuluaviator994
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sat May 10, 2008 7:47 pm

Thanks everybody, lol, you scared me a bit when u said my name dr. H, but oh well. And yeah, I know it's all a big myth, but it seems to be a favourite (I'm Aussie), but yeah, thanks for all the info, I'll probly quote you, thanks
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
 
Tornado82
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 2:47 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):


There is a lot of talk about how high altitude emissions might be affecting the atmosphere. Also there was the fact that during the days after 9/11 temperatures lowered a bit.

As a meteorologist/climo person, that research about the post-9/11 days was so flawed words cannot even describe.
 
ex52tech
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 4:09 am



Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):
Global warming is the current big lie. It does not exist,

AMEN brother !!!!!!!

Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):
Quote Mr Gore in his totally discredited work of fiction "An Uncomfortable Truth"

I think of it more as "A Convenient Lie". The only effect that so called "Global Warming" is having on the airline industry is it's destruction.

My friends university educated son told me just the other day, that gas needs to be $10 a gallon, just to offset it's effect on the environment. Totally and completely brain washed,............. I had to leave the room.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 5:55 am



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 8):
Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):
Global warming is the current big lie. It does not exist,

AMEN brother !!!!!!!

Apparently, you guys are completely unable to read a thermometer, or consult with anyone who does.

Global warming isn't in doubt...the global mean temperature is increasing, and has been for some time. Whether that's the fault of man, natural cycles, or some other cause is completely up in the air, but denying that the globe is actually warming has about the same scientific footing as denying that the tide is coming in while your shoes are getting wet.

Tom.
 
thegeek
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 6:29 am



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
As a meteorologist/climo person, that research about the post-9/11 days was so flawed words cannot even describe.

Interesting how you didn't comment either way. I've seen a lot of meteorologists who think that the globe is warming, and the probability is that it is caused by man. The causation link is established on the grounds that the warming is happening as the models have predicted. Could it be natural variability? Yes, but that's <5% chance.
 
ex52tech
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 6:41 am



Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 9):
Apparently, you guys are completely unable to read a thermometer, or consult with anyone who does.

My understanding is that the mean temperature has not gone up since 1998, that is why the people who would profit from global warming are screaming the loudest before we all figure out that we are being scammed. If there is no crisis then there is no need to funnel money into the study of it. I don't deny that the earth goes through cycles, but I don't believe that we have the effect on it that some would have you believe we do. Consensus is not science, in order to be considered science it has to be 100% proven fact, and some out there are trying to sell consensus as scientific fact.

Speaking of reading thermometers, have we been reading them long enough to determine what the temperature variances have been over a longer period of time than we have been recording said temperatures............once again.........consensus trying to be sold as scientific fact.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
thegeek
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 7:04 am



Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 11):
in order to be considered science it has to be 100% proven fact

Actually no. There isn't really any such thing as 100% proof, disproof is much easier. Newtonian mechanics was (and still is) pretty good, but it's not completely right with relativity and quantum theory.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 9:18 am



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 7):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 1):


There is a lot of talk about how high altitude emissions might be affecting the atmosphere. Also there was the fact that during the days after 9/11 temperatures lowered a bit.

As a meteorologist/climo person, that research about the post-9/11 days was so flawed words cannot even describe.

I don't have to be a meteorologist to see that!  Smile That's why I said "a lot of talk". The whole thing was quite unscientific.

Quoting Thegeek (Reply 12):
Quoting Ex52tech (Reply 11):
in order to be considered science it has to be 100% proven fact

Actually no. There isn't really any such thing as 100% proof, disproof is much easier. Newtonian mechanics was (and still is) pretty good, but it's not completely right with relativity and quantum theory.

Indeed. The results need to be repeatable, which is not quite the same as 100% correct.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
David L
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 10:02 am

Um, people... speaking as someone who occasionally gets involved in quite heated debates about the validity of MMGW in the Non-aviation forum, can I suggest we keep this one on topic and offer suggestions on how the whole thing might affect aviation, whether it's valid or not?

Just speaking from bitter experience.  fight 

 biggrin 

Punitive taxation is the only thing I can think of that will be a factor, whether the idea is valid or not. I'm sure others can offer more suggestions.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 3:21 pm

Pretty much the same effect the Bermuda Triangle has on flight operations in the Western Atlantic - and for exactly the same reason.

Now the global warming snakeoil that has allowed Al Gore to increase his personal net worth by something like a hundred million dollars in the past five or six years while using many times the fossil fuel the rest of us use WILL affect air transport. (Not actual aviation but the business of air transport, primarily in the form of regulatory kneejerks by uninformed politicians.

But that's just my opinion. Wouldn't want to get on a rant.

I defy anyone to prove one actual effect of climate change on flight operations. Note that I said "climate change" and not rule changes, price changes or widescale bankruptcies all of which are man-caused for certain. More to the point, when I say "climate" I do not mean political climate.
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thegeek
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 8:58 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
I defy anyone to prove one actual effect of climate change on flight operations.

Hotter temps causing lower thrust in certain hot and high locations.
 
bond007
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Sun May 11, 2008 9:22 pm



Quoting GeorgiaAME (Reply 3):
If they wish to retain their jobs, your teachers are forced by their bosses to spout politically correct platitudes, which have no bearing in fact.

Ah, just like 'intelligent design' also, ... now, I get it  Wink


Jimbo
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Zuluaviator994
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Mon May 12, 2008 12:43 am

Hmm...Interesting stuff guys, thanks...Wonder what my science teacher will say
lol
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SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Mon May 12, 2008 12:52 am



Quoting Thegeek (Reply 16):
Hotter temps causing lower thrust in certain hot and high locations.

No. That would be a hypothetical effect IF it could be demonstrated that temperatures actually were consistently hotter in [more than a few] "certain" hot and high locations.

We are all well aware that local hot weather at high elevation airports could result in reduced lift capacity out of those aiports. There is not ONE SHRED of evidence that this ACTUALLY IS affecting airline operations.

Believe me, if that was happening I am one of the people who would be dealing with the real-world effects. I am not. No one at my airline is.

Next.
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Tornado82
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Mon May 12, 2008 1:56 am



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):

We are all well aware that local hot weather at high elevation airports could result in reduced lift capacity out of those aiports. There is not ONE SHRED of evidence that this ACTUALLY IS affecting airline operations.

Considering the average increase of this so-called global warming has been to the degree of maybe 1°F per couple decades... these differences are negligible to the aircraft performance. A pilot isn't really going to notice a difference of just a couple degrees F., it's only going to be a couple hundred ft difference in density altitudes. The same differences that occur every hour of every day.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Mon May 12, 2008 3:58 am



Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 20):
these differences are negligible to the aircraft performance

Okay, so the o/p asked for "The Effect On Aviation" so if the differences were negligible I guess you could say

There is no effect


Which is pretty much what I said.

Quoting Tornado82 (Reply 20):
A pilot isn't really going to notice

And I am not answering as a pilot but as a person very much involved with flight operations and training. I'd know if there was some actual trend.

Now fuel price...
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David L
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Mon May 12, 2008 11:39 am



Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 18):
Wonder what my science teacher will say

Ah, it's a science project. It looks as though you're going to have to explain why nothing has changed, then.  Smile
 
Zuluaviator994
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Mon May 12, 2008 6:53 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 22):
David L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 6636 posts, RR: 20Reply 22, posted s_lt(1210592367, 'l F j Y H:i:s');Mon May 12 2008 06:39:27 your local time (7 hours 4 minutes 27 secs ago) and read 33 times:



Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 18):Wonder what my science teacher will say
Ah, it's a science project. It looks as though you're going to have to explain why nothing has changed, then.  

Yeah, It's somewhat hard. He doesn't like what all you guys say, "Biased and under sourced." Is what he basically said. I know there is no effect, but can you guys find a source? Book or something maybe? Because I can't. And yeah David, sure is a project.....Hard one at that
Rgrds
MBarnes
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SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Wed May 14, 2008 4:17 pm



Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 23):
He doesn't like what all you guys say, "Biased and under sourced."

I report to you what I observe myself and what is captured by our many data acquisition systems on our fleet of hundreds of airliners, each flying thousands of hours each year and he says it is biased and undersourced. I give you information based upon data acquired in the real world and analyzed by staffs of engineers whose job it is to modify our flight operations based on real-time conditions and trends. This data and the conclusions from it is used to tune policies and procedures that are being taught to pilots and dispatchers at (at least three) major airlines (to my knowledge) and it is "undersourced." Well, the actual data is proprietary and will not be released to a school science project but believe me if there were any actual effects we would be compelled to do something in response to them by both rigid economic constraints and public safety issues. We are not. Nothing has changed in airline flight operations due to "global warming."

Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 23):
I know there is no effect, but can you guys find a source?

If there is NO EFFECT, then you can't find a "source" for something that does not exist.
Are you telling me that the taxpayers of your municipality are paying the salary of a science teacher who asks his students to prove a negative?

Does he want a source? Here's a source. L. Ron Hubbard (you know - the founder of Scientology) wrote a science fiction novel with a story line about a guy who held the fresh air franchise for an entire planet. (I think it was "Ole Doc Methusaleh") He enslaved the entire population by controlling the air purifiers. What these machines actually did, however, was put pollen in the air causing breathing distress for masses of people and driving the need for his air purification. Brilliant scam.

Now I wouldn't go so far as to accuse Al Gore of being that tyrant. He might accuse the oil companies of promoting our very dependence on oil, but here is a fact, verifiable all over the internet and at libraries near you. In the few years since he started this global scare, Al Gore has increased his personal net worth by perhaps as much as a hundred million dollars. It might be fairly stated that Al Gore has a higher profit margin than the oil companies. All the while his personal energy use is ten times yours or mine - not including the Boeing 757 he uses to fly his one-man act around the world.
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Zuluaviator994
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Wed May 14, 2008 6:21 pm

Ok, Slamclick, I realize that all and I'm sorry if I came across like that, all I was doing was quoting, I know that airline information is confidential, and I respect that, and I know, you cannot prove a negative, because you use negatives to prove a positive, so I apologize
Rgrds
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SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Wed May 14, 2008 6:33 pm



Quoting Zuluaviator994 (Reply 25):
I'm sorry if I came across like that

Well, so am I. Any reproach I might feel or express is directed entirely at the science teacher in question and to the (for profit) global warming movement.

The original question was about "effects" and the consensus here, among those of us who get really specific guidance from our well-informed flight operations / performance gurus is that there is no effect. We have not been instructed to make even the smallest change in the way we plan and conduct flight operations and therefore must conclude that there is no effect. We, the personnel of airline flight operations do not have a professional bias in this matter, no matter what the personal opinions of some individuals (like me) may be. All the documentation required for this matter is OUR word. And our word is that no changes have had to be made.

I have a couple other observations but will have to wait a day or two to make them. I'm off to burn some fossil fuel myself.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
bond007
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Wed May 14, 2008 6:48 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 26):
We have not been instructed to make even the smallest change in the way we plan and conduct flight operations and therefore must conclude that there is no effect.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
No. That would be a hypothetical effect IF it could be demonstrated that temperatures actually were consistently hotter in [more than a few] "certain" hot and high locations.

We are all well aware that local hot weather at high elevation airports could result in reduced lift capacity out of those aiports. There is not ONE SHRED of evidence that this ACTUALLY IS affecting airline operations.

Well, let me ask this, and it's irrelevant whether you want to call it 'global warming' or just a normal cycle or whatever. Do you not agree that global temperatures ARE rising?

Probably a good unbiased (IMO anyway) source is NASA:

http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/

Now, if you DO believe this is true, then is it not a logical assumption that this will and does effect aircraft performance?

With all respect to your analysis - simply because you aren't changing procedures because you do not notice a trend, is not evidence against there being one. If the temperature at airport A was on average 75 degrees 30 years ago, and now it's 76 degrees ... there WILL be a difference in performance... however small, correct? And unless you were specifically analyzing a small subset of data, you would probably never see it. I'm sure your data isn't differentiating a takeoff which is 4000ft 20 years ago, vs one that is 4010ft today, and that difference being purely because of temperature, and that this temp is increasing very slightly each year. I'm sure a change in wind speed of 1 or 2 kts would also cause this kind of difference, and likewise, you're not going to change any parameters because of it ... but that doesn't mean it's not affecting performance.


Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
ALexeu
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Wed May 14, 2008 8:18 pm

The affect on global warming caused by aviation is an even bigger issue.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Wed May 14, 2008 11:16 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 27):
Do you not agree that global temperatures ARE rising?

That is not the question in the thread title. The opening question has been answered thoroughly here.

Your question is more suited to non/av.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 27):
Do you not agree that global temperatures ARE rising?

My personal belief or opinion: I don't know but I would expect it to be. After all, we are coming out of an ice age. It will probably continue to increase for several thousand more years, even if mankind dies out. Then the various cycles that operate on a scale so massive that all the combustible material on the planet is powerless to change them will eventually swing around and we will have 'global cooling' until we have another ice age.

And so on.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 27):
Probably a good unbiased (IMO anyway) source is NASA:

NASA (or ANY other government agency) is emphatically not "unbiased" They have a critical vested interest in the public perception of atmospheric problems that they should be funded to study.

In case you have been living on another planet, that is what goverment agencies do - they study problems. Not one government agency has ever actually solved a problem and, in fact many would argue that virtually every problem mankinds faces today is the direct, obvious and immediate result of unenlightened or even deliberate government bungling. It is a compelling argument. Ponder this: If both the Democrats and the Republicans want [balanced budget] [clean atmosphere] [election reform] [insert your favorite cause here] why don't we have these things? No, I do not accept NASA as either unbiased or even particularly authoritative on this subject.

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 27):
unless you were specifically analyzing a small subset of data, you would probably never see it.

Exactly my point. Small subsets can be (and are) used to create impressions that are simply not rooted in fact.
Proposed: Janis Joplin was an elitist snob.
Evidence: She once sang "my friends all drive Porsches"

Quoting Bond007 (Reply 27):
you're not going to change any parameters because of it ... but that doesn't mean it's not affecting performance.

In the real world? Roughly the same effect as if I wore brown shoes instead of black. You said it yourself - we are not changing the way we are doing anything, so where is the "effect" of which you speak?

Fact is fuel price escalation has driven aircraft design (and operational design too, but less so) to an infinitely greater degree. The 737 NG, for example, have almost 18 feet more wing span than the classics. The performance is so much greater that it utterly eclipses any overall increase in average temperatures. Thanks to greedy Ayrabs wanting to buy 777s for their children we now have airplanes that outperform earlier generations of jets by an order of magnitude.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
CosmicCruiser
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Wed May 14, 2008 11:44 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 29):

Well said, and I won't hop up on my soap box as if standing on speakers corner in Hyde Park.....but I could...
 
bond007
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 12:04 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 29):
That is not the question in the thread title. The opening question has been answered thoroughly here.

Your question is more suited to non/av.

LOL ....Not at all, it's directly related to the question about performance that you appeared to selectively miss  

Forget NASA, forget Al Gore .... there IS global warming. What causes this is a different debate and that IS non-av.

Now, if you agree, and you didn't clearly answer last time ... then it DOES affect aircraft performance of course.

Simply because you are not changing your operations because of that, doesn't automatically mean there is no effect as a whole. The question wasn't whether your company is changing their operations due to global warming, it was whether it effects 'aviation'.

I'm sure I'm being pedantic, but if the world is getting warmer, and it is by all credible (and most non-credible) accounts, then performance IS affected.

Is this effect tiny?... I'm sure it is... but it has nothing to do with how much Al Gore makes a year, how the government causes all our problems, or Janis Joplin, or Porsches. That IS non-av!!

It's really quite simple ... If you think there is global warming, then it most probably affects aviation. If you don't think there is - then obviously it doesn't.

Jimbo

[Edited 2008-05-14 17:09:36]
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 12:34 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 31):
the question about performance that you appeared to selectively miss

CRAP!

Read:

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
Pretty much the same effect the Bermuda Triangle has on flight operations in the Western Atlantic - and for exactly the same reason.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 15):
I defy anyone to prove one actual effect of climate change on flight operations.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
re is not ONE SHRED of evidence that this ACTUALLY IS affecting airline operations.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 19):
if that was happening I am one of the people who would be dealing with the real-world effects



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 21):
if the differences were negligible I guess you could say


There is no effect


Which is pretty much what I said.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 24):
if there were any actual effects we would be compelled to do something in response to them by both rigid economic constraints and public safety issues. We are not.



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 26):
We have not been instructed to make even the smallest change in the way we plan and conduct flight operations and therefore must conclude that there is no effect.

Now, is there any doubt in your mind as to my answer to the question: "Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?"

By the way, YOUR bias is becoming pretty obvious. You asked the question. You got the answers. If you only wanted answers that supported yours, or your alleged science teacher's opinions that is not science, it is politics or snake-oil sales.

Sell it over in non av.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
bond007
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 12:39 am

Isn't it amazing what otherwise seemingly educated folks turn into when they see the words "global warming" !

If the question had asked the effect a temperature change would have on aircraft performance, we would have had tons of great scientific answers on how it does or doesn't effect it.

Oh well .....

Back to you guys....
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
Zuluaviator994
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 1:12 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 33):
Isn't it amazing what otherwise seemingly educated folks turn into when they see the words "global warming" !

lol, yeah, specially teachers. I agree with Dr H and Slam Click, and mate, really, my science teacher is a dickhead Big grin
lol, but anyways, what about Aviation ON global warming instead of vise versa???
Rgrds
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
 
WPIAeroGuy
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 1:33 am

Sort of off topic- How does one go about calculating Earth's average temperature? A google search came up with some simple models using the energy received from the sun, but I can't imagine they are too accurate. I hope its not something like an average of all weather stations all over the globe, but you never know. I'm thinking that it might have something to do with infrared satellite imaging, but that doesn't explain how temps were calculated in the 1800's.
-WPIAeroGuy
 
2H4
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 1:53 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 33):
Isn't it amazing what otherwise seemingly educated folks turn into when they see the words "global warming" !

Nothing "seemingly" educated about the man. Frankly, I'm surprised that you would stoop to the level of criticizing another's level of education or understanding. Whether you agree or disagree, it takes a real lack of class to make such a comment about an individual who has so consistently and freely shared his considerable knowledge with others.

I'll chalk it up to a bad day or a global-warming-induced lapse of courtesy.  Wink

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 5:32 am



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 33):
asked the effect a temperature change would have on aircraft performance

Now we are onto something actually verifiable. I have hundreds of pages of performance charts for DC-8, DC-9, DC-10, MD-11, MD-80, F-28, B707, B727, B-737, B-747, BAe-146, L-1011, BAC-111, A-300, A-320 and A-330. They all demonstrate that increasing temperatures degrade aircraft performance, for both engine and wing. No question about it. In addition, my own emperical observations validate every bit of it. Anecdotal evidence from pilots and dispatcher for whom I have great respect validates it. Heat thins air and thin air doesn't carry sheetmetal very well.

Further, as has been asserted above, a trend of higher temperatures would have a generalized effect of reducing allowable payloads or range capacity from affected airports.

It must be true that there are few industries on earth that monitor their own daily datastream more vigilantly than air transport, owing mostly to ruinous fuel prices.

So with all that said, there is not one iota of evidence that a consistent pattern of payload capacity loss is being experienced. If there was it could simply be added to the debate on whether "global warming" is ONLY a potentially billion-dollar scam or whether it might have some validity and relevance that last depending on whether it is possible for man to affect it.

Now, just in case you think I've been unjustifiably rude, let me remind you that you posed as a person needing unbiased information. When the information you got did not conform to global warming dogma you debated it. Regardless of the source you disputed it. You found my truth inconvenient and with blissful ignorance of air carrier flight ops you rejected it.

Let me tell you in no uncertain terms: Science does not look for data to match a theory. It matches the theory to the data. You are guilty of bad science here. Accept the damn answers or go ask someone who does not know what they are talking about. And your science teacher (if there is such a person) is guilty of passing political indoctrination for science - an offense at least equal to teaching six days of creation as science.

Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 34):
what about Aviation ON global warming instead of vise versa???

If there is a consistent trend of global temperature increase and if man is responsible for some percentage of it, I'd reckon that airliners dumping heat, water and particulates into the stratosphere would certainly be a factor in that.

But I really don't know much about that.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
thegeek
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 7:23 am

SlamClick,
If Global Average temperatures go up by 0.5 degree C, would there be an effect on Aviation? Sure. Would the effect on aviation be verifiable or measurable? I wouldn't think so.

I can't see where your (and other's) problem with this statement lies.

[Edited 2008-05-15 00:29:26]
 
bond007
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 11:32 am



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 37):
When the information you got did not conform to global warming dogma you debated it. Regardless of the source you disputed it.

I simply asked that if one believes that temperatures are rising, then surely aircraft performance WILL be degraded, as you now correctly described and agreed.

To answer this question it's not necessary to mention politics, scams, science teachers, or Al Gore.

Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 2:37 pm



Quoting Thegeek (Reply 38):
would there be an effect on Aviation? Sure. Would the effect on aviation be verifiable or measurable? I wouldn't think so.

It lies with scientific principles. If it can't be verified or measured how in the pluperfect hell can you call it an effect?
Answer that.
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 3:05 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 39):
To answer this question it's not necessary to mention politics, scams, science teachers, or Al Gore.

Then be more honest in the way you ask the question.

The answers you demanded had to be rooted in global warming-as-fact. Yet the question you asked was simply for the effects; of which, there are none.

If you wanted only answers that support the premise, say so.

I mention your science teacher because I don't think I believe there ever was a science project. I think you were just fishing for some word or phrase for us to lend credence to a theory that, at least during the age of jet air transport has had no measurable effect.

I mention Al Gore because you should undertand that millions of dollars are being spent every year to make YOU believe in man-caused global warming. I've lived long enough to recognize propaganda when I see it. Not everything Himmler said was a lie you know. Just the conclusions he offered to his boss.

I will have some respect for the premise when its proponents acknowledge:

1. We are exiting an ice age. We are transitioning from an epoch when sheets of ice two miles thick covered most of the northern hemisphere to, probably an age when deserts cover most of the northern hemisphere.

2. Solar energy varies on a scale unimaginable to most of us, and in ways understood by no one.

3. "An Inconvenient Truth" may have been a not-for-profit venture but that is only a tax avoidance strategy. It makes profits comparable to the oil company profits without the expense of exploration, drilling, transporting and refining. I know I get a tank of gasoline for my oil money. What do I get from Al Gore and company?

Until they give as much publicity to these facts as they do their scare tactics they will continue to be snake oil salesmen.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 3:12 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 41):
I've lived long enough to recognize propaganda when I see it.

In the 20s and 30s, the big boogeyman was "racial purity", from which came the cure: "Eugenics". And it wasn't just our friends in Germany who were into this. Eugenics was accepted science in those days. Nowadays it is of course totally discredited. But it serves to illustrate the point.

BTW I totally stole that from Crichton's extremely boring "State of Fear".
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
bond007
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 3:35 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 41):
Then be more honest in the way you ask the question.

I asked the same question, never mentioned anything being 'man made' and mentioned nothing political except when directly replying to something already posted.

I asked that if temperatures are rising, then is it not correct that aircraft perfomance is affected. Negligible perhaps.

It would appear your main argument with me personally, is/was just my use of the term 'global warming'. In the context I use it, it means absolutely nothing political (IMO anyway), it means that global temps are rising ... at least for the past 100-200 years, arguably a lot longer. When I use the term 'global warming', the fact that some think it's man-made and others don't, is irrelevant - that isn't the discussion.

I really don't give a damn whether it's man-made or not.



Jimbo
I'd rather be on the ground wishing I was in the air, than in the air wishing I was on the ground!
 
ContnlEliteCMH
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 7:56 pm



Quoting Bond007 (Reply 33):
If the question had asked the effect a temperature change would have on aircraft performance, we would have had tons of great scientific answers on how it does or doesn't effect it.

No, we would have great answers on how much performance is affected. That temperature affects performance is not in doubt.

So the question you should have asked is, "What effect will a <1C increase in average air temperature have upon aircraft performance?" Since the purported temperature rise is within that range, your question would have been very accurate.

And the answer from SlamClick would still be, "The effect will be negligible." That's sensible. When you consider the use of derated takeoffs, planes flying routes that require less than maximum weight, etc. then you realize quickly that the *practical* effect is even less than the theoretical effect.
Christianity. Islam. Hinduism. Anthropogenic Global Warming. All are matters of faith!
 
Zuluaviator994
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 8:10 pm

Hey Slamclick, just so you know, it isnt me, Zuluaviator994, that your debating with.
lol
idk Bond007, but you both have some good arguments if i may so
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
 
thegeek
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Thu May 15, 2008 9:52 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 40):
Answer that.

I thought that was a rhetorical question until I read that. There are many effects which can't be measured, like Quantum Physics in many applications. It doesn't mean that it's not there. You might be able to measure an increase in average temperature, and infer an effect on aviation from that.

And I don't think that fuel burn records are kept to that level of detail. You'd need to know about weights, derated climbs etc. And aircraft get more efficient as technology improves, so over the decades which climate change is likely to apply, there is way to much noise to measure a fuel burn increase.
 
Zuluaviator994
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Fri May 16, 2008 1:19 am

Hey, just so you all know, I'm going to link this page into my presentation (Microsoft Powerpoint) lol, just so ya know
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Fri May 16, 2008 3:12 pm



Quoting ZuluAviator994 (Reply 45):
Hey Slamclick, just so you know, it isnt me, Zuluaviator994, that your debating with.
lol
idk Bond007, but you both have some good arguments if i may so

Sorry, I do tend to get lost mid-thread and forget to whom I'm responding to...whom. Did I mention I get pretty drifty after reading these forums for a few minutes?

* * *


One of the problems with debate or discourse today is that common words have been hijacked, usurped by groups with agendas not all of us can align with. For one example you may be happy but you would not call yourself gay anymore - unless you actually are gay. I think the original VW beetle was a brilliant piece of work but I would not refer to it as "intelligent design" lest you think I believe it was divinely inspired. And so it is with "global warming." Two of the most likely words to describe any widespread increase in atmospheric temperatures but the word has become irrevocably linked with Al Gore Inc. and it is probably unwise to use those two words together unless you want that association made.

In the case of the o/p I believe that the question has its roots in either the science teacher personally being a devotee of "An Inconvenient Truth" or in instructional materials actually being sent to schools by Mr. Gore's organization. Lots of organizations contribute packages of instructional material to public schools, most of it benign or even beneficial in nature. Teachers love it because there are whole lesson plans that they don't have to write, and slick training aids and so on. The problem can arise where there is an agenda. For example, how do you think your community would respond if it was learned that Exxon/Mobil was disseminating a 'burn more oil' message in your school?

Well make no mistake. The Global Warming (I'll use upper case to differentiate it from the traditional meanings of those words) organization is doing this for profit. Their motive is precisely the same as the oil company motive - money and political power. This is not a charitable activity. This is for profit - masked as not-for-profit for tax purposes. You can run a not-for-profit organization and pay your wife and children a million dollars a week for the work they do - all perfectly legal. Your balance sheet just cannot show a "profit" which is pure accountant wizardy. There is absolutely nothing altruistic about the Global Warming campaign. Remember you heard it from me when the bill is eventually presented.

I believe that Global Warming will be taught in college classes a thousand years from now as a scam of epic proportions.

It is just not possible to ask a question about atmospheric phenomenoids, using the phrase global warming without eliciting emotion-based response. That the response is emotional does not mean it lacks merit. It only means it may be more emphatic.

I would suggest that if you really want to know what affects the generalized increase in atmospheric temperatures might have on airline flight operations that you avoid using the character string 'global warming' as it carries inescapable baggage that will, that must affect the responses.

Now ZuluAviatior994 you have had your question asked and addressed if not answered. I have one for you. Will you tell us, one and all, was there a background assumption on your part,or on the part of your science teacher that "global warming" meant conditions as described in Mr. Gore's slideshow? Did this question have its genesis in that movement?
Happiness is not seeing another trite Ste. Maarten photo all week long.
 
Zuluaviator994
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2008 9:50 pm

RE: Global Warming And The Effect On Aviation?

Fri May 16, 2008 6:03 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 48):
Sorry, I do tend to get lost mid-thread and forget to whom I'm responding to...whom. Did I mention I get pretty drifty after reading these forums for a few minutes?

No Problem, happens to the best of us
If Speed is life, Altitude is life insurance. No one has ever collided with the sky.

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