flipdewaf
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New Large Freighter Aircraft

Thu May 22, 2008 10:58 pm

Some may remember that a few months ago I started a topic about a university project in which we had to design a freighter.
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/tech_ops/read.main/217201

Well the project is almost at an end and the aircraft is as defined as it is going to get with the reports all handed in now but we have a public (I think) design exhibition at the university on Wednesday and Thursday next week and so we have a model now in production which is due to be glassed tomorrow evening or Saturday morning.

Ok, well here is a link to the GA (I apologise for the dimensions being in mm, I'm sure you can work it out)
http://www.box.net/shared/vmc4xd4ow4

Here is a link to a data sheet (again sorry for the ridiculous number of sig. figs on some of the values).
http://www.box.net/shared/50mqi2ug4s

It is projected to have operating costs of 38.26c/t-nm. Can carry 20ft ISO shipping containers sideways in the main cabin and when packed using 118 inch high PMCs and with the projected 12lbs/ft^3 cargo density can carry a maximum of 187t of cargo but capable of 200t at higher densities and will transport 175t 5500nm.

It has an engine thrust of 90,860lb per engine, of which there is 4  Wink , a wing area of 869m^3 an MTOW of 590t and OWE of 230t.

The list price of the aircraft has been projected to be $320million.

Anyway here is a pretty pic
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/8854/greybackxq4.jpg

If you have any questions please ask as my team mates and I need to practice answering any questions for the large grilling we will get on it at the design exhibition.

thanks

Fred

P.S. I am well aware that it has a hump and so does a 747, look from the top and you'll see where 90% of the inspiration came from.
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larshjort
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Thu May 22, 2008 11:15 pm

It' looks good, I just think the nose looks a bit stubby.
How many 20 ft containers can fit in there?

/Lars
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flipdewaf
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Thu May 22, 2008 11:19 pm



Quoting Larshjort (Reply 1):
How many 20 ft containers can fit in there?

17 I think.
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flipdewaf
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Thu May 22, 2008 11:25 pm



Quoting Larshjort (Reply 1):
How many 20 ft containers can fit in there?

EDIT: 23 can fit in.

Fred
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vikkyvik
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Thu May 22, 2008 11:30 pm

Looks like the evil spawn of an A380 and a 747  Smile

Just had a cursory look at the specs table. Looks interesting - about all I can say after a brief look. What are the two drag coefficients (A and B)?

I'll be doing something similar next spring semester in my Aircraft Design class. Should be interesting (and a crapload of work).
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
flipdewaf
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Thu May 22, 2008 11:38 pm



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 4):
Just had a cursory look at the specs table. Looks interesting - about all I can say after a brief look. What are the two drag coefficients (A and B)?

The A part is the Lift independent drag and the B is the lift dependent drag (multiplied by Cl^2).

Fred
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Starlionblue
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Thu May 22, 2008 11:40 pm

That is large. Big grin

Also very expensive. What's your market outlook in a world where Antonov can presumably dish out an An-225 for half the price?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
KELPkid
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Thu May 22, 2008 11:40 pm



Quoting Flipdewaf (Thread starter):
P.S. I am well aware that it has a hump and so does a 747, look from the top and you'll see where 90% of the inspiration came from.

Space Shuttle solid rocket booster?  Silly
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
flipdewaf
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Thu May 22, 2008 11:51 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 6):

747-8F is at about $300million list price. The Direct operating costs of the aircraft are about 16% lower than that of the 748F with a market of around 40% of the large general freight market (252 aircraft from 2020-2035) and 90% of all time sensitive items moving from container ships to airfreight (hence the ISO capability). As for the antanov thing, with predicted $4/US-gallon by 2020 then the trip costs of the an-225 would be truly astronomical as anywhere near MTOW it cruises at very low altitude.

Fred
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Starlionblue
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Thu May 22, 2008 11:55 pm



Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 8):
747-8F is at about $300million list price. The Direct operating costs of the aircraft are about 16% lower than that of the 748F with a market of around 40% of the large general freight market (252 aircraft from 2020-2035) and 90% of all time sensitive items moving from container ships to airfreight (hence the ISO capability). As for the antanov thing, with predicted $4/US-gallon by 2020 then the trip costs of the an-225 would be truly astronomical as anywhere near MTOW it cruises at very low altitude.

Very good. Arent' you glad for the practice?  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
flipdewaf
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Fri May 23, 2008 12:02 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):

Very good. Arent' you glad for the practice? Wink

Yes, Jeff Jupp (ex technical director of Airbus) is coming to give us a grilling and he is the cleverest person I have ever spoken too, He knows everything! the more I (and the team, its a team mark) can prepare the better.

Fred
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rwessel
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Fri May 23, 2008 3:49 am

Given that you're designing a pure freighter:

Why low wing? It messes up the center of your cargo area (at least the lower deck). Second, you increase the height off the ground of the cargo doors. On the plus side, you do pick up ease of engine maintenance, and you get a better place to store some landing gear (although pods along the lower edges of the fuselage seem to work well too).

Why the emphasis on speed? M.85 for a freighter? Why not go with a much simpler straight wing optimized for M.70 or so? You'll save on high lift devices and get better short field performance to boot. The resulting thicker and straight wing will likely be structurally simpler, and weigh less to boot.

Please don't take this as criticism of your work, I'm just curious about some of your decisions.
 
point8six
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Fri May 23, 2008 8:44 am

Did you do the project on current (at the time) fuel prices or projected prices? (You quote 38.26 c/t nm.
Does the a/c have a nose-door for loading? Not all freight is loaded in containers due to unusual dimensions.
Mach 0.85 as a cruise speed (as opposed to M0.70) is because of the wing design and available engine thrust, however at the predicted MTOW, only those few airports that are "A380 compliant" would be available, due load bearing surfaces etc..
I'll bet you have has a lot of fun in this project and good luck for the rest of your course.
By the way, ask Jeff Jupp what he thinks the oil price will be in a years time! bigthumbsup 
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Fri May 23, 2008 11:03 am

Streamlining the Nose would help increase fuel efficiency in my opinion.
regds
MEL
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Starlionblue
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Fri May 23, 2008 12:59 pm

It definitely needs a better livery. Get some marketing person on the project now. I'm serious. Gray does not sell.  Wink

Or just ask your friendly polls and opinions crowd.  Wink
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
jetlife2
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Fri May 23, 2008 1:01 pm

What do you assume for engine sfc? Drives fuel burn and direct operating cost. I see your overall pressure ratio is 39 so that's lower than a GE90 (40). On this basis you could use off the shelf GE90-90B's and meet your goal. Let me know where you want the first ship set delivered, that'll be about $100M please, or less if you want to sign up for a few sets!
My views are not necessarily the views of the GE Company
 
flipdewaf
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RE: New Large Freighter Aircraft

Fri May 23, 2008 2:10 pm



Quoting Jetlife2 (Reply 15):
What do you assume for engine sfc? Drives fuel burn and direct operating cost. I see your overall pressure ratio is 39 so that's lower than a GE90 (40). On this basis you could use off the shelf GE90-90B's and meet your goal. Let me know where you want the first ship set delivered, that'll be about $100M please, or less if you want to sign up for a few sets!

Engine sfc is around 5% better than current but its too variable to give you an exact value in cruise. Pressure ratio isnt the only thing that determines efficiency although it will be predicted to be to around 50 by the time 2020 came around.

Quoting Point8six (Reply 12):
however at the predicted MTOW, only those few airports that are "A380 compliant"

The ACN number is 69 to give us better airport compatability than the A380.

Fred
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