manfredj
Posts: 76
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Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:04 pm

Here in the states, if you purchase an automobile and it has continuous problems which detract from the safety of the vehicle, the company is required to purchase it back. The "lemon law" is a consumer protection law.

I'm wondering if aircraft manufacturers are bound by some kind of law which required them to take back or replace an aircraft if it continuously breaks. What kind of warranty does a new aircraft come with?

Can anyone share a story about a particular airplane that has had continuous problems from delivery and what was done about it?
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smcmac32msn
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RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:15 pm

The only one that comes to mind for me is the Beechcraft Starship. Raetheon bought back all of them, and sent them all to the desert to be broken up. In return for giving up your Starship they gave you a Raetheon Premier, their newest plane at the time.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
manfredj
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:16 am

RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:46 pm



Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 1):
In return for giving up your Starship they gave you a Raetheon Premier, their newest plane at the time.

Did they ask for additional money PLUS the new aircraft or was it an even exchange? Are there any Starships that weren't broken up?
757: The last of the best
 
vfw614
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RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:53 pm

An airplane is a good. Why should there be specific rules on purchasing aircraft? If it comes with a fault, normal rules would apply unless the parties have modified these principles of contract law.
 
osiris30
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RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:01 pm



Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 1):
In return for giving up your Starship they gave you a Raetheon Premier, their newest plane at the time.

The Raytheon Premier has to be the fugliest biz jet in the universe. Having said that, do you have a source that Raytheon recalled Starships that were actually purchased and not just ones out on lease?
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fr8mech
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RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:03 pm

The aircraft will be worked by the airline's maintenance group. Parts and labor will be covered by the manufacturer. That statement is a very broad stroke of the brush...the actual terms will be dependant on the sales contract.
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EMBQA
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RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:15 pm



Quoting Smcmac32msn (Reply 1):
The only one that comes to mind for me is the Beechcraft Starship.

That had nothing to do with quality or 'Lemon Law' issues. Beech only made and sold 50 airframes and it was becoming an issue to offer fleet support for such a small number.


Quoting Manfredj (Reply 2):
Are there any Starships that weren't broken up?

Yes... one or two went on display....one is flown by a friend of the Rutans and was used during the Starship One trials
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474218
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RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:44 pm

To answer about a "Lemon Law" for airliners: McDonnell Douglas didn't take back the MD-11's.
 
cygnuschicago
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RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:55 pm

Airbus didn't take back AA's A300s....
 Wink
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manfredj
Posts: 76
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:16 am

RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:58 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 7):
McDonnell Douglas didn't take back the MD-11's.

Haha, I assume you are not an MD-11 fan. I forgot all about the reliability issues with them. Were compensations made to the individual airlines for performing under claimed efficiency? I can't help but to think Delta would still have theirs today if it (Md-11) performed the way it was supposed to.
757: The last of the best
 
Bravo1Six
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:03 pm

RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:14 pm



Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter):
Here in the states, if you purchase an automobile and it has continuous problems which detract from the safety of the vehicle, the company is required to purchase it back. The "lemon law" is a consumer protection law.

I'm wondering if aircraft manufacturers are bound by some kind of law which required them to take back or replace an aircraft if it continuously breaks. What kind of warranty does a new aircraft come with?

"Lemon laws" are typically only applicable to consumer transactions as you noted and thus wouldn't apply to a commercial transaction between a manufacturer and a customer. That said, some jurisdictions extend similar types of laws to all transactions (primarily civil law jurisdictions like France and Quebec). Those aren't really "lemon laws", but more in the nature of imposing liability on a seller of goods even for latent defects.

Aircraft warranties are stipulated in the purchase agreement and are a matter of contract. They are always time limited and generally only require the manufacturer to correct the problem at its cost. The customer has no right to return the aircraft to the manufacturer regardless of the problem.
 
crjfixer
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 5:15 am

RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:55 pm



Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 5):
The aircraft will be worked by the airline's maintenance group. Parts and labor will be covered by the manufacturer. That statement is a very broad stroke of the brush...the actual terms will be dependant on the sales contract.

This is correct, and if an airplane gives enough problems the manufacturer will normally send down a team to assist in repair/troubleshooting
 
tf39
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:43 am

RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:49 am

WRT non-broken up Starships:

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 6):
Yes... one or two went on display....one is flown by a friend of the Rutans and was used during the Starship One trials

I believe one is still hanging from the ceiling at the Evergreen Aviation museum in McMinnville Oregon. Been a couple of years since I've been there so I could be wrong.
 
wingscrubber
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RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Thu Jun 05, 2008 2:16 am

There's a starship at Kansas aviation museum in wichita...
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MD-90
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RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:26 am



Quoting Osiris30 (Reply 4):
Having said that, do you have a source that Raytheon recalled Starships that were actually purchased and not just ones out on lease?

Beech didn't actually recall them, but didn't renew the leases of the ones that were leased and made offers to the owners of the owned Starships. Most of them took Raytheon up on the offer except for a few.

53 Starships were built and it is my understanding that 4-5 are still flying.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:08 am



Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter):
I'm wondering if aircraft manufacturers are bound by some kind of law which required them to take back or replace an aircraft if it continuously breaks.

Generally, no.

Quoting Manfredj (Thread starter):
What kind of warranty does a new aircraft come with?

Typically, some number of years of coverage for faulty components and manufacturing defects. If it's really bad, the OEM will typically send their own team to take care of it but this is more often a business consideration than a warranty issue.

Tom.
 
arffdude
Posts: 90
Joined: Sat Aug 04, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting Manfredj (Reply 2):
Are there any Starships that weren't broken up?

There's at least one that's still flying somewhat regularly. I see it here at HPN from time to time.
 
474218
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 12:27 pm

RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:33 pm

Some of you may find this interesting:

http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/ww20040302.html
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:17 pm



Quoting CygnusChicago (Reply 8):
Airbus didn't take back AA's A300s....

You mean because they are efficient, haul more cargo than competing aircraft in the fleet, and are perfect for their Latin American routes?
 
PGNCS
Posts: 2249
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 5:07 am

RE: Lemon Law For Aircraft?

Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:22 pm



Quoting 474218 (Reply 17):
Some of you may find this interesting:

http://www.warrantyweek.com/archive/....html

That's a great article, thank you for posting it.

I have a friend who does warranty administration at NWA and it is an amazingly complex job. Talking to him about component and airframe OEM's is a very eye-opening experience. He definitely has strong opinions on which are the best and worst manufacturers to work with.

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