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UltimateDelta
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Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:12 pm

Hi, everybody. In a sort of response to the thread about taking off on a conveyor belt, I began wondering whether you could land on one. I'd think you probably could, provided that the belt and the airplane slow down at the same rate. By doing this, you could pretty much land a plane in one spot and have no need for a runway. I'm not suggesting airports do this, but I'd certainly like to know whether it would be possible. Thanks for any input you have on this topic.
UltimateDelta
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Fly2HMO
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:26 pm

Alright, I'll say it:



 duck 

[Edited 2008-06-07 13:27:33]
 
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:37 pm



Quoting UltimateDelta (Thread starter):
you could pretty much land a plane in one spot and have no need for a runway.

You could also use the same belt to deliver the customers' luggage, and to get people from security to the gate, so it would be a big saving on infrastructure for the airports too.

Good plan !
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sat Jun 07, 2008 9:25 pm



Quoting UltimateDelta (Thread starter):

I disagree for largely the same reasons as why you can take off from a conveyor belt. The belt will not hold the aircraft in place since the primary application of force to move the plane is through the engines. However as you got to idle thrust I would expect the belt to slow the airplane down as friction takes effect. At best it would be a shorter landing distance.

Anyways, I know this is a sensitive and passionate topic, so I'm donning my flamesuit.

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vikkyvik
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:08 pm



Quoting UltimateDelta (Thread starter):
By doing this, you could pretty much land a plane in one spot and have no need for a runway.

Nope, for the same reason you can't take off with the belt in one spot. The wings need to be moving through the AIR to generate lift. They could care less what the ground is doing (except for ground effect).

You can't bring an airplane moving through the air at 150 kts to a stop in one spot. It's a physical impossibility.
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askr
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:35 pm



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 5):
You can't bring an airplane moving through the air at 150 kts to a stop in one spot. It's a physical impossibility.

Actualy it's quite possible... Thugh more populary known as a crash...
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:44 pm



Quoting Askr (Reply 6):

Actualy it's quite possible... Thugh more populary known as a crash...

Hah, I did in fact think of that after I had written the post.

But I'm assuming you want to stop it so that the energy is absorbed in some way that won't kill people.

Next thread: "Could you crash a plane on a conveyor belt...."
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:53 pm



Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 1):
Alright, I'll say it:

For the sake of humanity, will someone take a wodden stake and drive it through the heart of this thread and kill it dead? Please?
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tdscanuck
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:25 am



Quoting UltimateDelta (Thread starter):
I began wondering whether you could land on one

Yes.

Quoting UltimateDelta (Thread starter):
By doing this, you could pretty much land a plane in one spot and have no need for a runway.

No. Unless you want to turn the passengers to jell-o in an extremely high-g stop.

Tom.
 
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:28 am

Uh, as a matter of fact... if your runway had a conveyer belt on it, you would save on tyre wear  Smile But I don't think michelin or goodyear would like the idea hehe...

Seriously though, all this conveyer belt stuff is nonsense because many centuries ago, some smart alec invented the....

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stratosphere
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:30 am

Please let this conveyor belt thread die already...I hated the first one and can't believe it had like 800+ posts.
 
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:55 am



Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 11):
Please let this conveyor belt thread die already...I hated the first one and can't believe it had like 800+ posts.

I actually find it funny to read how people can believe that you can take a 600 ton jet, put it on a convoyer belt, an d it then begins to fly without air moving over the wings  banghead   sarcastic   rotfl   duck 
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NWADC9
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:00 am

The wheels have nothing to do with motion for the plane. They just sit there and help the plane roll along on the ground. It's the engines that provide propulsion, and they're pushing on the air; the ground is irrelevant.
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787atPAE
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:21 am

Sounds like some folks need to go to college and take this course called DYNAMICS. It's one of the first actual engineering courses I enrolled in. It's been 15 yrs since I've taken this course, and I still shake my head at topics like this...

In this course, the topic of relative motion is discussed. I'm not talking about Einsteinian relativity, but rigid body motion.

If the knowledge of relative motion is applied to an airplane and airflow (and maybe a little bit of common sense aerodynamics), many things will become apparent.

For example:

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 5):
wings need to be moving through the AIR to generate lift.

 bigthumbsup 
 
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:38 am



Quoting Larshjort (Reply 12):
I actually find it funny to read how people can believe that you can take a 600 ton jet, put it on a convoyer belt, an d it then begins to fly without air moving over the wings



Quoting 787atPAE (Reply 14):

Take an R/C car and put it on a treadmill. Run the car on the treadmill with the belt moving against the car. Now, run the treadmill, but with your hand, push the car. The car moves forward. That's becaue the force is applied at a different location instead of the wheels.

Cars move due to wheel friction.

Airplanes move due to thrust from the engine. Thus the airplane will move forward regardless of the conveyor belt/landing gear interaction...free stream velocity will move over the wings, and the aircraft will lift off.

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SlamClick
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:12 am



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 15):
Airplanes move due to thrust from the engine.

Give it up.

He apparently believes in the "magic" version of the conveyor belt. The one that can stop an airplane by spinning its wheels.
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:16 am



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 16):
Give it up.

He apparently believes in the "magic" version of the conveyor belt. The one that can stop an airplane by spinning its wheels.

There's hope for him.  Wink

The worst the conveyor belt will do is cause the tires to disintigrate. If it were true the wheel friction alone would prevent the airplane from taking off, then I can think of a lot of fixed gear GA planes that would have problems as the free stream acts on their wheels.  Smile

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kalvado
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:55 am



Quoting Wingscrubber (Reply 10):
Uh, as a matter of fact... if your runway had a conveyer belt on it, you would save on tyre wear Smile But I don't think michelin or goodyear would like the idea hehe...

I'm sure they would start supplying conveyor belts to make up for used profit!

And to add some more fun to the thread:
is it possible to land a plane into a wind tunnel? Say we fly a plane into 150 knots (or whatever landing speed is) stream of air. Then, wings still have enough lift, but the plane is stopped with respect to tarmac while still floating above ground.
apply chokes and turn off wind tunnel..
 
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:04 am



Quoting Kalvado (Reply 18):
Then, wings still have enough lift, but the plane is stopped with respect to tarmac while still floating above ground.

Sure. In fact Popular Mechanics (cue laughter) had this picture of a hovercraft aircraft carrier a few decades ago. No need for catapults since the carrier would go so fast that there would be very significant lift generated for the planes.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:36 am



Quoting Kalvado (Reply 18):
And to add some more fun to the thread:
is it possible to land a plane into a wind tunnel? Say we fly a plane into 150 knots (or whatever landing speed is) stream of air. Then, wings still have enough lift, but the plane is stopped with respect to tarmac while still floating above ground.

On this forum, I've read posts by people who've flown Cessnas into strong headwinds - so much so that the airplane was stationary relative to the ground....or even moving backwards.

It's why airplanes take off and land into headwinds. Less ground speed required when you're on the runway for the same amount of lift.

Also why windshear is so dangerous on landing. If you're flying into a 10 knot headwind, and it suddenly turns into a 20 knot tailwind, that's 30 knots of airspeed, and the equivalent amount of lift, that you suddenly just lost.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
kalvado
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:55 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 19):
Sure. In fact Popular Mechanics (cue laughter) had this picture of a hovercraft aircraft carrier a few decades ago.



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 20):

On this forum, I've read posts by people who've flown Cessnas into strong headwinds

That was partially to illustrate earlier post

Quoting 787atPAE (Reply 14):
In this (DYNAMICS ) course, the topic of relative motion is discussed.


Still, now I have to discard popcorn I got ready expecting some show  Sad
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:39 am

The "Return of the conveyor belt thread" Part II I guess.

Provided the Belt runs in the opposite direction & at the speed required  Smile

regds
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askr
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:22 pm



Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 22):
Provided the Belt runs in the opposite direction & at the speed required Smile

But what if the belt runs in the same direction as the plane is landing... Oh gosh, the wheels will be sationary while the plane will be movig foreward... How come will this be possible?
Or worse case - the belt will be running faster than the plane...

Okok, I'm shutting up!
But I do warn you all, I have an extinguisher under my desk ;d;d
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HAWK21M
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:35 pm



Quoting Askr (Reply 23):
But what if the belt runs in the same direction as the plane is landing

Depends on What speed.

Quoting Askr (Reply 23):
But I do warn you all, I have an extinguisher under my desk ;d;d

capapult fears no Extinguisher  wink 

regds
MEL
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flexo
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:39 pm

Actually, if the belt was to move in the same direction as the landing aircraft and would exactly match its speed, you wouldn't even need wheels and brakes any more. That would mean some great weight savings!

Then, on top of that great advantage, you could connect a generator to the belt to generate electricity from braking the landing aircraft.

I don't see any cons do you?  Wink
 
David L
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:56 pm

Well, I've been beaten to the juicy answers but...

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 7):
Next thread: "Could you crash a plane on a conveyor belt...."

Me? Of course I could but no-one will let me demonstrate.  grumpy 

Quoting Wingscrubber (Reply 10):
Seriously though, all this conveyer belt stuff is nonsense because many centuries ago, some smart alec invented the....

Yes, the patented Conveyor Belt Isolating Device.

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 12):
I actually find it funny to read how people can believe that you can take a 600 ton jet, put it on a convoyer belt, an d it then begins to fly without air moving over the wings

I really hope that was a joke.

Quoting Stratosphere (Reply 11):
Please let this conveyor belt thread die already...I hated the first one and can't believe it had like 800+ posts.

Then why bother posting? Perhaps people don't like exactly the same things you do. A wild thought, I know.
 
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:17 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 26):
Well, I've been beaten to the juicy answers but...

I'm sure 2H4 might come up with something....

Scooter01  duck 
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askr
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:02 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 26):
Quoting Larshjort (Reply 12):
I actually find it funny to read how people can believe that you can take a 600 ton jet, put it on a convoyer belt, an d it then begins to fly without air moving over the wings

I really hope that was a joke.

Check out the original thread... fair bit of magic, the Force, Schwartz, Bermuda-riangle-type forces there... ;>
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David L
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:58 pm



Quoting Askr (Reply 27):
Check out the original thread... fair bit of magic, the Force, Schwartz, Bermuda-riangle-type forces there... ;>

I know, I even classified the variations. However, no-one ever suggested an aircraft would fly with no air flowing over the wings. The problem was that some seemed to believe a conveyor belt would somehow prevent airflow over the wings, even in the "classic" version, no matter how well it was explained.  Smile
 
grandtheftaero
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:28 pm

BRILLIANT!!!









[Edited 2008-06-09 09:28:19]
 
bond007
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:54 pm



Quoting GrandTheftAero (Reply 29):
BRILLIANT!!!

Well, #1 can't possibly take off... if the speed of the conveyor matches the speed of the wheels ... because the wings will hit the posts.

#2 is a whole different animal of course. Really no comparison with the fixed wing example  Wink
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:04 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 28):
However, no-one ever suggested an aircraft would fly with no air flowing over the wings.

Actually they do all the time. The air doesn't go much of anything. It just gets lifted out of the way for a moment.

We fly because the wings cut through stationary air and impart some small amount of motion vector to it.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:25 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
Actually they do all the time. The air doesn't go much of anything. It just gets lifted out of the way for a moment.

We fly because the wings cut through stationary air and impart some small amount of motion vector to it.

It doesn't matter what's stationary and what's moving, though. The air could just as well be moving, and the airplane stationary. Hence wind tunnels.

All depends on your point of reference.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
2H4
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:28 pm



Quoting Flexo (Reply 24):
Actually, if the belt was to move in the same direction as the landing aircraft and would exactly match its speed, you wouldn't even need wheels and brakes any more.

There's already a version in operation. It allows very fast jets to land in several hundred feet, and has allowed Cessna O-1s to hover in place before chopping the throttle and lightly bouncing down with zero ground roll.

It's called an aircraft carrier!

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
David L
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:13 pm



Quoting SlamClick (Reply 31):
Actually they do all the time.

Well, yeah... OK.  grumpy 

 biggrin 

Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 32):
All depends on your point of reference.

And that means air only flows over the wings of the aircraft I'm flying in. Tough luck for everyone else.  Smile
 
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:15 pm

Suggested to the mods to lock or delete this thread. This is getting ridiculous.  banghead 
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flyf15
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:35 pm

What I really want to know is if you put a treadmill in a plane and took off... would you be able to run on it?
 
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:52 pm



Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 35):
Suggested to the mods to lock or delete this thread. This is getting ridiculous.

It's not as though people are being forced to open the thread....  Smile

2H4
Intentionally Left Blank
 
roseflyer
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:44 pm

As an aircraft design engineer who specializes in brakes/wheels/tires among other things, I will weigh in.

You really have no benefit using a conveyor belt instead of brakes to stop a plane. A conveyer belt would still have to slow down a plane. The limiting factor is not the method of stopping, but rather the friction between the tire and the pavement. Even in a performance stop, unless you are in the perfect conditions, the airplane never uses all 3000PSI of available brake pressure. The antiskid system doesn't allow it since all that would happen is that the wheels would skid. So you can have a tire spinning with a brake slowing it down, or you can have a conveyor belt have a brake on it and slowing it down. Essentially your stopping distance is the same. Brakes are heavy, but the best way to do it.

Case close, ask me any questions you want since I know the best and the brightest engineers who work on brakes, and think that the idea is ridiculous.

For all of those who shoot threads like this down, I hope you never go on to be an engineer designing airplanes. There is nothing wrong with a crazy idea. Yes this one is quite far out there, but crazy ideas spur thought and imagination which can be formulated into good ideas. The true mark of intelligence is knowing how to take multiple ideas regardless of how absurd they may sound and formulate a good idea from it.
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RussianJet
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:45 pm

I think that the words 'conveyer belt' should be banned from all fora on airliners.net  Smile
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dragon6172
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:17 pm

If we just built conveyor belts between all destinations we would not need to worry about whether the plane took off and landed.
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askr
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:58 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 40):
If we just built conveyor belts between all destinations we would not need to worry about whether the plane took off and landed.

That is true, but now we would have to work ut a way of keeping a plane on the conveyor while it accelarates or decelerates.

Now we could use brakes but this is just sooo 20 th century.
After all we are now using conveyors.

We need to know the reaction to increasing thrust during acceleration, and than spoiler and reverse thrust use during deceleration.

Since we don't want to fly (but still use aeroplanes), some sort of lift-dumping device will be needed, maybe a sort of blown-wing but blowing the other way. We obviously can't remove the wings (it woulfd not be an aeroplane) and can't make them un-aerodynamic - we have to keep a tab on Conveyor fuel usage (remember $140/barell!)

And think of all the NIMBY-s all around!
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tdscanuck
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:34 am



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 38):
You really have no benefit using a conveyor belt instead of brakes to stop a plane. A conveyer belt would still have to slow down a plane.

Not having to pack the weight of the brakes around seems like a pretty huge benefit to me. Plus, if the brake is on the conveyor belt, you lose most of your space constraints, can implement a nice cooling system, all kinds of other fun stuff.

Tom.
 
kalvado
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Tue Jun 10, 2008 3:31 am



Quoting RussianJet (Reply 39):


I think that the words 'conveyer belt' should be banned from all fora on airliners.net

Then you would have to ban word "treadmill" as well. and then we'll anll miss a horror story about someone who tried to bring a full-size treadmill as a carry-on for a CRJ flight...
 
flyf15
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:22 am



Quoting Kalvado (Reply 43):

Then you would have to ban word "treadmill" as well. and then we'll anll miss a horror story about someone who tried to bring a full-size treadmill as a carry-on for a CRJ flight...

Who, me?  Smile
 
metroliner
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:18 am

What if a conveyor belt landed on a plane? Could the plane take off?

Quoting GrandTheftAero (Reply 29):
BRILLIANT!!!

Pure genius Big grin Is this how Airbus are getting the A320NG to shed a few pounds...?

Toni.
Set the controls for the heart of the Sun
 
David L
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:24 am



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 38):
For all of those who shoot threads like this down, I hope you never go on to be an engineer designing airplanes. There is nothing wrong with a crazy idea. Yes this one is quite far out there, but crazy ideas spur thought and imagination which can be formulated into good ideas. The true mark of intelligence is knowing how to take multiple ideas regardless of how absurd they may sound and formulate a good idea from it.

Well said. Even if no "good idea" comes of it, some people enjoy the theoretical discussion. If others don't like it that's tough luck. I'd be happy if 90% of the threads in Civil Aviation were canned but I don't feel the need to butt in to each of them to say so.

Quoting Tdscanuck (Reply 42):
Not having to pack the weight of the brakes around seems like a pretty huge benefit to me. Plus, if the brake is on the conveyor belt, you lose most of your space constraints, can implement a nice cooling system, all kinds of other fun stuff.

I guess you'd need to weigh that againt the hammering the belt would take from being used for every landing aircraft, though.  scratchchin 
 
aogdesk
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Tue Jun 10, 2008 4:02 pm

Not to stir things up too much, but now that I've spent countless seconds pondering this question, I bring up this issue:

Could a conveyor belt take off from atop an airplane? Suppose you placed a conveyor belt on top of the airplane, and then started the airplanes engines. If the landing gear weren't rotating, how fast would the top of the airplane have to go to give the conveyor belt Vr and what would the minimum stall speed of the belt be?

 Wink
 
David L
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RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:22 pm



Quoting Aogdesk (Reply 47):
If the landing gear weren't rotating, how fast would the top of the airplane have to go to give the conveyor belt Vr and what would the minimum stall speed of the belt be?

Whoa! You want the top of the aircraft to move without the landing gear rotating? Are you going to arrange a conveyor belt under the aircraft, too, or are you calling on Stretch Armstrong to build the aircraft?  Smile
 
aogdesk
Posts: 748
Joined: Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 am

RE: Now, If You Landed On A Conveyor Belt...

Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:26 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 48):
Whoa! You want the top of the aircraft to move without the landing gear rotating?

Purely a hypothetical. Ok, perhaps a drug induced hypothetical....but....

j/k.....that other thread got sooooo way out of hand that I figured I'd test the waters...lol

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