Transpac787
Topic Author
Posts: 1349
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 12:47 pm

Cockpit Upgrade On 757/767

Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:52 am

Hey all,

It seems one of the new re-modernization packages available for the 757/767 fleet these days is a cockpit modification. Not really sure the extent of the changes or technicalities involved, but my question is a simple one: why???

Both the 757 and 767 are CAT-IIIB aircraft, so why the need for any variety of upgrade at all?? I mean, the next step is CAT-IIIC, of which only the 787 and Gulfstream 550 will be able to be certified to, IIRC.

So, why the need or desire to pay for any sort of upgrade to a plane that doesn't really need one in the first place?? I guess I'm just stuck on the principle of "don't fix something if it isn't broken", haha.


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ShyFlyer
Posts: 4698
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:38 pm

RE: Cockpit Upgrade On 757/767

Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:02 am



Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
So, why the need or desire to pay for any sort of upgrade to a plane that doesn't really need one in the first place??

Well, according to the supplier of that modification, Innovative Solutions & Support, that upgrade has the following benefits (among others):

• Enhanced Readability
• Component Count Reduced by 70%
• Improved Dispatch Reliability
• Significant Weight and Heat Savings
• Adaptable to Future Requirements

http://www.innovative-ss.com/product...l.asp?ProductTypeID=4&ProductID=11
I lift things up and put them down.
 
fr8mech
Posts: 6601
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: Cockpit Upgrade On 757/767

Mon Jun 16, 2008 5:17 pm

Without reading into the modification, I would assume:

-LCD displays, more reliable and cooler (tempwise, not wow, that's cool) than CRT.
-Upgrade to a newer standard databus. ARINC 429 was the standard, I believe a new standard exists.
-Consolidation of components. Reduced maintenance costs and spare carrying costs.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
pilotboi
Posts: 711
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 8:16 am

RE: Cockpit Upgrade On 757/767

Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:22 pm

Some of my own comments:

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 1):
• Enhanced Readability

The display can be changed to show exactly what is needed, when it's needed.

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 1):
• Component Count Reduced by 70%

It's an LCD screen, and a few circuit boards. Compared to multiple moving parts and CRT screens.

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 1):
• Significant Weight and Heat Savings

Same as above.

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 1):
• Adaptable to Future Requirements

Definately something that is necessary in today's fast pace changing world.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 2):
Reduced maintenance costs and spare carrying costs.

Less chances of a problem, and when there is, much easier to fix it.
 
AAH732UAL
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:41 pm

RE: Cockpit Upgrade On 757/767

Mon Jun 16, 2008 8:33 pm

http://www.airliners.net/photo/ABX-Air/Boeing-767-232(BDSF)/1067871/M/

And if you see.... all those planes are decked out with all of the following.
1)GPS MMR(multi mode reciever)
2)Better RNP(required nav performance)
3)RNAV approach able
4)Possibility of further WAAS(Wide area augmentation system)/LPV(loc precision w/ vertical guidance) and LAAS(local area augmentation system) upgrades.

5)ASD-B(Automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast)

Another is adding Pegasus FMCs w/ GPS MMR making them capable of RNP and RNAV(GPS) and SAAAR(special aircraft and aircrew authorization required) (RNP) approaches.

I got a feeling most stuff is around the FMC and adding GPS and maybe WAAS if the airline has the money for WAAS GPS. (Look at my profile pic) Its a 777 Pegasus FMC, but that is the new model that can support everything except for WASS/LPV. (787 FMC has WAAS/LPV and RNP.1)

The 757/767 is old technology..... this is just to bring the planes into the NEW FAA . The FAAs new idea is to.... make new things(enroute, terminal, etc.) that can be used by most current avionics with some small upgrades.

BTW.......
the 757/767 could do 0/0 if it wanted if it could park on the runway.

The CATs are more airline dependent and what the airline can tain for the flight crews..... not just airplane dependent.

As I said, the NEW FAA w/ all their HAR(high alt redesign) and starting to dump NDBs, VORs, and ILS instead for FMC performance based things.

The upgrades have nothing to do with ILS..... it has to do with next Gen RNAV and that fact that the 757/767 has many good years left, but not if there is no ground based things for the plane to fly off of.

757/767 is from the late 70s early 80s and besides upgrades to the FMC(like this new one) has not changed much.

WAAS/LPV w/ proper lighting can be as good as a CATI ILS. There is also workings for the future for an actual GPS/GNSS landing system.

Right now its mostly GA with RNP approaches showing up in commercial aviation...... but these airlines are gearing for the future.

I called ABX one day and they have RNAV(GPS) and maybe (RNP) approach approval right now with those new panels on some of their 762s.

Hope I helped.

[Edited 2008-06-16 13:57:23]
DME/DME RNP0.3 NA -Escalators don't break---- they just become stairs!
 
donniecs
Posts: 56
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 1:20 pm

RE: Cockpit Upgrade On 757/767

Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:10 pm



Quoting Transpac787 (Thread starter):
the next step is CAT-IIIC, of which only the 787 and Gulfstream 550 will be able to be certified to, IIRC

All Gulfstreams are only CAT-I with an STC for a CAT-II (at least GIII through G550). If you outfit it with the HUD/EVS, your allowed to go 100' below minimums so it's an easy work around for Gulfstream CAT1 operators. Gulfstreams are behind on all the GPS approach technology also, we can only do LAV/NAV in the G550 with no plans to upgrade it that I'm aware of.

Gulfstreams GV and G550's only have 2 autopilots and I believe that you need 3 for CAT-III (not 100% sure on that fact).
Charlie - Gulfstream flight mechanic
 
AAH732UAL
Posts: 242
Joined: Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:41 pm

RE: Cockpit Upgrade On 757/767

Mon Jun 16, 2008 10:19 pm

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 5):
of which only the 787

Just thought of it as well.

The 787 is not certified for anything yet

[Edited 2008-06-16 15:20:29]
DME/DME RNP0.3 NA -Escalators don't break---- they just become stairs!
 
Max Q
Posts: 5629
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

RE: Cockpit Upgrade On 757/767

Mon Jun 16, 2008 11:55 pm

Well Cat3c is 0 vis and ceiling.

The aircraft doesnt care what the visibilty is, I have landed with minimum reported vis of 75 metres and 0 ceiling, not seeing a thing at Alert height of 100 feet (nor are we required to as long as we have no warning lights or flags and 'Land 3' annunciated)

Could only just see the centreline lights on roll-out, no matter though, the 75/67 steers itself down the runway on roll out following the localizer signal, and stops itself with autobrakes.

As Captain I just apply reverse, ensure the spoilers auto deploy and make sure all the other automatic functions work correctly.

The issue with going to cat3c is not aircraft capability but fire fighting.'

With 0 visibilty and a fire on landing the CFR department woul not be able to find you..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
DeltaGuy
Posts: 3965
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:25 am

RE: Cockpit Upgrade On 757/767

Tue Jun 17, 2008 12:41 am



Quoting Donniecs (Reply 5):
If you outfit it with the HUD/EVS, your allowed to go 100' below minimums so it's an easy work around for Gulfstream CAT1 operators.

It allows you to descend below your DA of 200', say, and descend another 100 using the EVS, at which point you must have spotted the field with the Mk1 Mod0 eyeball.

Quoting Donniecs (Reply 5):
Gulfstreams GV and G550's only have 2 autopilots and I believe that you need 3 for CAT-III (not 100% sure on that fact).

Yes, two A/P's, but you can't engage them both at once, just the L or R at any one time. Also, no autoland capability, though the HUD will give you a runway symbol, pitch up, and throttle retard commands.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
stratosphere
Posts: 1060
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 12:45 pm

RE: Cockpit Upgrade On 757/767

Sat Jun 21, 2008 1:16 am



Quoting Donniecs (Reply 5):
Gulfstreams GV and G550's only have 2 autopilots and I believe that you need 3 for CAT-III (not 100% sure on that fact).

I do not know about Gulfstreams but you do not need 3 a/p's to be certified for cat 3. The A320 only has 2 and it is a cat 3 capable

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