jasp25
Topic Author
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:44 am

### Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

Hello guys!

Just out of curiosity, on a typical UA 1 flight from ORD-HNL with a typical load factor, how much fuel does UA carry? -- how many pounds? (or percent of its fuel tank capacity?)

Also, how do the crews measure the weight of the aircraft? Does every aircraft has a device that tells them the weight and/or calculates it?

-jasp
-peace and chicken grease!

wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Jasp25 (Thread starter):Also, how do the crews measure the weight of the aircraft? Does every aircraft has a device that tells them the weight and/or calculates it?

Take the aircrafts empty weight, add the passenger weight, add the cargo and baggage weight, add the fuel weight and you have your take off weight. During flight: take off weight minus used fuel equals the actual weight.

WILCO737 (MD11F)

David L
Posts: 8550
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

Presumably the weight of the passengers and their hand baggage is the only factor that is estimated, rather than accurately known?

wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting David L (Reply 2):Presumably the weight of the passengers and their hand baggage is the only factor that is estimated, rather than accurately known?

Yes, it is a fixed weight which is used for each passenger.

WILCO737 (MD11F)

doug_or
Posts: 3184
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting David L (Reply 2):Presumably the weight of the passengers and their hand baggage is the only factor that is estimated, rather than accurately known?

Checked baggage is usually estimated as well.
When in doubt, one B pump off

Max Q
Posts: 5902
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

Since you did not get an answer to your first question I can tell you that on a EWR-HNL flight
on the 767-400 we carry between 140-160000 pounds of fuel.

(160000 lbs is full tanks)
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.

jasp25
Topic Author
Posts: 377
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:44 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):Since you did not get an answer to your first question I can tell you that on a EWR-HNL flight on the 767-400 we carry between 140-160000 pounds of fuel.

Wow that's a lot of fuel!

I appreciate the information, Captain!

 Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 3):Yes, it is a fixed weight which is used for each passenger.

you made me more curious, Wilco.... and how much pounds is that??

-jasp
-peace and chicken grease!

Boston92
Posts: 2555
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:56 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

Which would be roughly 22,000 gallons. I think.

wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Jasp25 (Reply 6):you made me more curious, Wilco.... and how much pounds is that??

As we don't use pounds here I can only tell you in kgs. It's 75kgs per passenger, his luggage 17kgs and 9 kgs of hand luggage. makes a total of 100kgs per passenger which is roughly 220 pounds.

WILCO737 (MD11F)

QANTAS747-438
Posts: 1713
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2001 7:01 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Jasp25 (Reply 6):you made me more curious, Wilco.... and how much pounds is that??

At Southwest Airlines, we determine pax weight as 199 lbs from MAY 1 - OCT and 201 lbs from OCT thru MAY. Those numbers take in to account trim units for the aircraft's weight and balance along with the fact that in the winter people will be travelling with more clothing due to the weather.
My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.

A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 8):As we don't use pounds here I can only tell you in kgs. It's 75kgs per passenger, his luggage 17kgs and 9 kgs of hand luggage. makes a total of 100kgs per passenger which is roughly 220 pounds.

But why is baggage weight estimated? Everything is weighed, so you have precise numbers.
Exceptions confirm the rule.

YWG747
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:19 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 8):As we don't use pounds here I can only tell you in kgs. It's 75kgs per passenger, his luggage 17kgs and 9 kgs of hand luggage. makes a total of 100kgs per passenger which is roughly 220 pounds.

For some reason I am thinking this could be a little on the light side.
Has there been any talk about raising this number?

wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting A342 (Reply 10):But why is baggage weight estimated? Everything is weighed, so you have precise numbers.

I don't know why. Maybe they changed it. I am not flying passengers anymore, so I am not into that anymore...

 Quoting YWG747 (Reply 11):For some reason I am thinking this could be a little on the light side. Has there been any talk about raising this number?

I guess so. It used to be the average passenger weight. It is for sure not up to date anymore. So for my take off calculation I always put a slightly higher weight in the calculation, just to be on the safe side... Now at Cargo: everything is 100% corect. We exactly know how much kgs we have on board. EXCEPT when it is raining and the loaders refuse to remove the water from the pallets or put some cover over it. Then we are easily a lot heavier than we thought we were. So just add a bit of weight to the calculated take off weight and you are safe

WILCO737 (MD11F)

doug_or
Posts: 3184
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting A342 (Reply 10):But why is baggage weight estimated? Everything is weighed, so you have precise numbers.

Everythign is weighed so you COULD have precise numbers. The weight does not go "with" your bag. They see if you need to be charged extra and move on. At least at airlines with scanner equipment they could keep track of this data and give you a precise number

 Quoting YWG747 (Reply 11):For some reason I am thinking this could be a little on the light side. Has there been any talk about raising this number?

The numbers have been raised periodically over time. In addition they vary by airline (I believe there is a standard weight [in the US] but airlines can come up with their own through audits of actual weights). My current is 195/190 for the passenger with cabin bags and 30 for old hold bags (including gate checks) except heavies (60 lbs). At my last airline the passenger weights were a few lbs lower and the gate checks were 20lbs. My last airline didn't serve the midwestern US.
When in doubt, one B pump off

pianos101
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:33 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting YWG747 (Reply 11):For some reason I am thinking this could be a little on the light side. Has there been any talk about raising this number?

Here's the official FAA word on estimating passenger weights:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory...nDocument&Highlight=weight,balance

This brings up a good point, though. Since the FAA tells airlines: take an average male to weight 200 lbs with luggage, shouldn't the airlines allow us FOR FREE to bring that much weight onboard???? I know it's still an "average" but hey since the FAA says so....

wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 14):This brings up a good point, though. Since the FAA tells airlines: take an average male to weight 200 lbs with luggage, shouldn't the airlines allow us FOR FREE to bring that much weight onboard???? I know it's still an "average" but hey since the FAA says so....

You should try that. But on the other hand: what about the people who are heavier than 200lbs? Even if it is just 230lbs or so. Do they have to pay for overweight then? That would be kind of unfair no?

WILCO737 (MD11F)

pianos101
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:33 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 15):Do they have to pay for overweight then? That would be kind of unfair no?

I know we've discussed this here ad nauseam so maybe we shouldn't get into it again... I know the 200lbs is an average but in the end i would rather pay less to carry less and more to carry more (including my own body weight). You need more fuel to carry more weight and more fuel to carry that extra weight, and more fuel to carry THAT extra weight (i.e., the weight spiral). If airlines are charging for (every) pound that we bring on, shouldn't some *standard* (e.g., what the FAA tells us) weight be taken as our limit including one's person, and have the airlines charge over that limit?? Yes I know that's not PC and most overweight people do not choose to be overweight, but isn't that the most fair solution, PC aside?

BACK to the topic: Max Q: on CO15, how often do you need to make a fuel stop before crossing the pacific? I know on some hot and humid days here in the northeast you're probably struggling just to get off the ground with such a large fuel load...

wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 16): I know we've discussed this here ad nauseam so maybe we shouldn't get into it again...

So we better not start with it   I guess there is never a 100% fair solution... So we have to deal with what the airlines will come up...

WILCO737 (MD11F)

KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Doug_Or (Reply 4):Checked baggage is usually estimated as well.

If so, what's the point of weighing it at check-in? Just so they can slap you with an overweight bag fee if you went over your alloted weight?

I thought all carriers now know the weight of the baggage, minus gate checks...
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)

doug_or
Posts: 3184
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting KELPkid (Reply 18):If so, what's the point of weighing it at check-in? Just so they can slap you with an overweight bag fee if you went over your alloted weight?

yes. see above.
When in doubt, one B pump off

Max Q
Posts: 5902
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

CO15 does not have to stop very often, if temperature is very high, we will just carry less freight

What is more of a problem is strong winter headwinds, which, on rare occasions will force a stop in Lax or Sfo.

I did log 12 hours and 36 minutes once though which was a long day in a -400 !
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.

pianos101
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:33 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Max Q (Reply 20):CO15 does not have to stop very often, if temperature is very high, we will just carry less freight in order to allow an adequate fuel load.

Interesting... I thought i read on here a while back that sometimes during the summer CO15'll stop in lax/sfo to pick up some fuel... Makes sense about the winter headwinds though..

That's such a great flight though, especially in businessfirst! what a great product to go to hawaii on.... When I was on it last month we went all the up to PDX before heading out to sea; i know it depends on winds aloft, but does going that far north affect the load beforehand, or does the favorable winds cancel out the extra mileage?

And 12 hours in a 67?? i mean it's better than a 57, but still! Kudos to you guys; especially during these tough times...

CoolGuy
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:13 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):Since you did not get an answer to your first question I can tell you that on a EWR-HNL flight on the 767-400 we carry between 140-160000 pounds of fuel. (160000 lbs is full tanks)

I took CO15 & CO14. Some of the best flights ever, and my first time in a 767 (I got to visit the cockpit! It was the first officer's first landing in a 767 too---maybe that was you Max Q? appx June 1, 2007). It was also the longest takeoff rolls I've ever experienced, which means full-length at EWR.

Does all that fuel on a 767 change its angle of attack between the first hour and the last hour of cruise?

pianos101
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:33 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel

 Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 22): Does all that fuel on a 767 change its angle of attack between the first hour and the last hour of cruise?

Do you mean "angle of attack" or "body pitch angle?" Those are two different things... Assuming you actually meant "angle of attack," then that will change throughout the cruise. As the aircraft gets lighter it needs less lift, and as it needs less lift it will climb to higher altitudes (theoretically) to optimize the thrust given by the engines. If the angle of attack didn't change then as the aircraft got lighter it would climb on its own, due to the fact that the lift will stay the same so then L > W...

[Edited 2008-06-24 12:09:11]

CoolGuy
Posts: 366
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 8:13 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Pianos101 (Reply 23):Do you mean "angle of attack" or "body pitch angle?" Those are two different things... Assuming you actually meant "angle of attack," then will change throughout the cruise. As the aircraft gets lighter it needs less lift, and as it needs less lift it will climb to higher altitudes (theoretically) to optimize the thrust given by the engines. If the angle of attack didn't change then as the aircraft got lighter it would climb, due to the fact that the lift will stay the same so then L > W...

I wonder how large that change is?

What's the difference between the two? How would you express the angle of the floor in the passenger cabin (although I don't know its angle while on the ground).

pianos101
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:33 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel

 Quoting CoolGuy (Reply 24):What's the difference between the two? How would you express the angle of the floor in the passenger cabin (although I don't know its angle while on the ground).

Well "angle of attack" is the angle between the wing chord plane and the incoming airstream. This angle is what determines lift, and when the wing will stall. It is an aerodynamic quantity and used for all aerodynamic calculations. It isn't directly related to the body angle (i.e., the angle of the floor with respect to the horizon), save the fact that the wing is mounted to the fuselage at some angle...

Airplanes have many coordinate systems, all used to make certain calculations easier during design. So the angle of the cabin floor is called the "deck" angle (makes sense...). This angle is what you actually "feel" while flying (e.g., on takeoff it's usually about 15 degrees). During cruise the body is usually pitched up a few degrees to compensate for the fact that the wing is not mounted exactly parallel to the fuselage (called the angle of incidence).

The "deck angle" won't usually change that much during level cruise (pilots, correct me if i'm wrong). Since there is a set angle, though, between the fuselage and the wing chord, both will change if the winds change or while climbing (obviously). So if one changes the other does change; but neither change that much during level cruise. I just wanted to be clear that deck angle and angle of attack are two different things (as commonly misrepresented here on a.net).

Wikipedia has a lot of useful information on all of this stuff: angle of attack, incidence angle, etc.

Max Q
Posts: 5902
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

You have an excellent explanation of AOA (angle of attack) versus pitch attitude 'CoolGuy'
from P101.

It sounds like you met the First Officer last June and it certainly would have been a long take-off
I have been flying as Captain on the 757/767 for a few years now, hope we get to meet sometime.

Cheers..
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.

pianos101
Posts: 80
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:33 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Max Q (Reply 26):You have an excellent explanation of AOA (angle of attack) versus pitch attitude 'CoolGuy' from P101.

WHEW thanks Captain! I guess four years and \$160k worth of engineering training didn't go to waste!

Do you usually fly long hauls, or does it really depend? I'm guessing you're based out of EWR since you do CO15/14? I'll also have to see where you are the next time i'm on CO out of EWR...

trex8
Posts: 4838
Joined: Sat Nov 02, 2002 9:04 am

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

http://www.icao.int

go to their Co2 emissions calculator, its a little clunky but it tells you what the average fuel is for all the aircraft types flying a particular route, very interesting stuff.

Max Q
Posts: 5902
Joined: Wed May 09, 2001 12:40 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

Mostly fly long haul out of Ewr where I am based yes P101.

I do an occasional transcon to add a few hours once in a while.

Cheers
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.

AirframeAS
Posts: 9811
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

### RE: Flight ORD-HNL On A Typical Day: How Much Fuel?

 Quoting Jasp25 (Reply 6):how much pounds is that??

The F.A.A. considers one pax to be equal to 180lbs.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.

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