AirWillie6475
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MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:50 am

I just flew the MD80! I could definitely see how it's regarded as a sweet airplane however why did they have to place the engines right next to the cabin? Further did MD engineers do any tests on the effect of having the engine right next to the windows? This was a standby ticket and unfortunately I got the very last row window, right next to the engine. I couldn't even see anything outside.

I have never experience engine noise as bad as this and the worst part was that it was louder even on idle then the midrange thrust, high thrust was the loudest. My flight was only 40 minutes but they actually use this airplane for 3+ hour flights, that would probably qualify for hearing damage. I was going to ask the F/As how they stand it but thought better of it. I will NEVER get on an MD80 from now on unless I can find better seats.
 
tdscanuck
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:17 am



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
why did they have to place the engines right next to the cabin?

They didn't have too (the 737 and E-jets don't). However, once you choose tail-mounted engines you're pretty much stuck with being next to the cabin on an aircraft that size.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
Further did MD engineers do any tests on the effect of having the engine right next to the windows?

What sort of effect? They certainly did all the normal flight test stuff, which would have included proving flights, noise measurements, etc.

Tom.
 
AA737-823
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:16 am



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
why did they have to place the engines right next to the cabin?

There are several advantages to having the engines NOT screwed to the wings. First of all, it allows you to have an aerodynamically 'clean' wing.
And really, what other place is there? Aside from Honeywell's (PWC maybe??) 707 with test engines mounted on the nose, nothing but the tail is really appropriate.

Also keep in mind that when the MD-80 made its debut, it was quieter back there than the former DC-9 variants and also the Boeing 727s.

The 717 (also a DC-9 variant) and Fokker 70/100 also put engines right there, but due to their having GREAT engines, it's actually perfectly pleasant.

You'll NEVER fly an MD-80 in back again? That's a shame; oh well, more seats for me.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:41 am



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
I have never experience engine noise as bad as this and the worst part was that it was louder even on idle then the midrange thrust, high thrust was the loudest. My flight was only 40 minutes but they actually use this airplane for 3+ hour flights, that would probably qualify for hearing damage. I was going to ask the F/As how they stand it but thought better of it. I will NEVER get on an MD80 from now on unless I can find better seats.

When I commuted to work in an MD-8x I liked the last row. It was the first flight of the morning and the drone put me right back to sleep for a nice 40 minute nap. As for hearing damage, it isn't THAT bad.

F/As tend to like the MD-8x because it's perceived as more stable in flight than a 737.

BTW the Mad Dog is remarkably quiet once you get forward of the middle.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
why did they have to place the engines right next to the cabin? F

Once you've chosen rear mounted engines they're right next to the fuse. No other place for them.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:55 pm

I seem to not have been clear with my question. There are plenty of rear mounted engines but the DC series seemed to have put the engines so that a good portion of it covers the last few rows windows. Not that bad? Hm...Have you heard an MD80 takeoff? Now imagine being a foot away from those engines for a few hours. I mean my whole seat was literally a massage chair from the vibrations. After we arrived our FA who was traveling with us commented how he'd thought the flight would never end. I definitely felt safe in the airplane though, for an old airplane it felt solid.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:24 pm



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
last row window, right next to the engine

Yeah, those "shrapnel seats" can be pretty loud.
I have a set of Bose headphones to cancel out the noise. Foam ear-plugs are also good, so I always fly with one or the other.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
roseflyer
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jun 30, 2008 2:35 pm

Rear mounted engines definitely have some weight and aero advantages. The 737 was originally studied to have rear mounted engines as well. However the original engines were not conducive to being tail mounted due to their size.

Tail mounted engines do make it louder in the back, but quieter in the front. And afterall, who does they airline care about giving a more comfortable ride to: the standby passenger in the back like someone paying the dirt cheap fare, or the first class passenger who flies weekly on last minute tickets?
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:17 am



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 4):
There are plenty of rear mounted engines but the DC series seemed to have put the engines so that a good portion of it covers the last few rows windows.

On a CRJ or ERJ, there is no belly hold so luggage goes in the back. On a Mad Dog, there is a belly hold so there is space for seats between the engines. From an operator point of view one can understand how they don't want to waste the space.

Yes it is noisy but certainly survivable. As I said I never really found it that unpleasant.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 4):
I definitely felt safe in the airplane though, for an old airplane it felt solid.

"for an old plane". If you have been on a.nut forums for a while, you should know that it's not the age that counts. It's the maintenance.  Smile
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
PGNCS
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:36 am



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
I could definitely see how it's regarded as a sweet airplane however why did they have to place the engines right next to the cabin?

Well, if they didn't want to put them on the wings for the very valid reasons that others have pointed out, where would you put them? Certainly the airlines and the manufacturer were going to use the cabin volume to seat as many people as possible in the aircraft and avoid wasted space.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
Further did MD engineers do any tests on the effect of having the engine right next to the windows?

What kind of tests?

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
This was a standby ticket and unfortunately I got the very last row window, right next to the engine.

Which is where standby passengers are frequently boarded on the MD-80 series, as most companies and agents won't assign those seats unless the remainder of the cabin is full. I guess the agent could have refused to let you on. You're a pilot, right? Didn't you bring earplugs? You never know when those things will be handy...

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
high thrust was the loudest.

It normally is.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 4):
Now imagine being a foot away from those engines for a few hours. I mean my whole seat was literally a massage chair from the vibrations. After we arrived our FA who was traveling with us commented how he'd thought the flight would never end. I definitely felt safe in the airplane though, for an old airplane it felt solid.

Most of us have been in that spot, and given the choice we would also choose other seats as well. I don't know anyone personally who would not sit back there when you wanted to get on, though.

I'm glad that you felt safe: you were.

Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
Tail mounted engines do make it louder in the back, but quieter in the front. And afterall, who does they airline care about giving a more comfortable ride to: the standby passenger in the back like someone paying the dirt cheap fare, or the first class passenger who flies weekly on last minute tickets?

The JT-8 powered 737's are horrendously noisy behind the wings, too. Like I have said many, many times, every airplane is a compromise and none are perfect in every area, though some come closer than others.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
I will NEVER get on an MD80 from now on unless I can find better seats.

Oh well, more standby seats for the rest of us...
 
pilotpip
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:28 am

Earplugs do wonders when you're sitting in the back of of anything with tail mounted engines.
DMI
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Tue Jul 01, 2008 4:46 am



Quoting Pilotpip (Reply 9):
Earplugs do wonders when you're sitting in the back of of anything with tail mounted engines.

I can recommend Etymotic Research plugs/headphones or Shure headphones. Better and cheaper than active noise cancellation.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
josekmlb
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:03 am



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
I will NEVER get on an MD80 from now on unless I can find better seats.

Say you are a NR and thats the only seat left lets just say 36A or E, I bet you would take it because you have to get to where you are going and if thats the only seat you will just have to deal with it.
 
PGNCS
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:31 pm



Quoting JoseKMLB (Reply 11):


Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
I will NEVER get on an MD80 from now on unless I can find better seats.

Say you are a NR and thats the only seat left lets just say 36A or E, I bet you would take it because you have to get to where you are going and if thats the only seat you will just have to deal with it.

 checkmark 
 
Max777geek
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:47 pm



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
I just flew the MD80! I could definitely see how it's regarded as a sweet airplane however why did they have to place the engines right next to the cabin?

To fly the airplane, my best guess.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
Further did MD engineers do any tests on the effect of having the engine right next to the windows? This was a standby ticket and unfortunately I got the very last row window, right next to the engine. I couldn't even see anything outside.

Apply for a boeing or airbus next. That's very unlikely you'd get one of those wing seats. Cheap, but how loudly, my dear.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
I have never experience engine noise as bad as this and the worst part was that it was louder even on idle then the midrange thrust, high thrust was the loudest.

Trust EPR working properly.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
My flight was only 40 minutes but they actually use this airplane for 3+ hour flights, that would probably qualify for hearing damage.

That would probably be the first time in md80 history.

Quoting AirWillie6475 (Thread starter):
I was going to ask the F/As how they stand it but thought better of it. I will NEVER get on an MD80 from now on unless I can find better seats.

MD80 fans will be very sorry of this.
 
KELPkid
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:29 pm

Anyone ever sat between the engines? If ever there was a bird that could use engine synchronizers, it was the DC-9's/MD-80's. To this day, I still have the sound of slightly out-of-synch engines in my head...WAAAAAAWWWWWWAAAWWWAAWWWWWAAAAAAHHHHHH  hypnotized 
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
AirWillie6475
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:45 pm



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 14):
Anyone ever sat between the engines? If ever there was a bird that could use engine synchronizers, it was the DC-9's/MD-80's. To this day, I still have the sound of slightly out-of-synch engines in my head...WAAAAAAWWWWWWAAAWWWAAWWWWWAAAAAAHHHHHH hypnotized

See I'm not crazy....
 
KELPkid
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:55 pm



Quoting AirWillie6475 (Reply 15):
See I'm not crazy....

The 727 solved the problem by not having seats between the engines  Wink
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
TSS
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:09 am



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 14):
Anyone ever sat between the engines? If ever there was a bird that could use engine synchronizers, it was the DC-9's/MD-80's. To this day, I still have the sound of slightly out-of-synch engines in my head...WAAAAAAWWWWWWAAAWWWAAWWWWWAAAAAAHHHHHH  hypnotized   

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
I have sat between the engines on an MD-80, and I know exactly what you mean!
Thanks for giving me my best laugh today!  bigthumbsup 
Able to kill active threads stone dead with a single post!
 
LMP737
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:31 am



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 14):
Anyone ever sat between the engines? If ever there was a bird that could use engine synchronizers, it was the DC-9's/MD-80's.

The MD-80 has N1/N2 sync.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
ex52tech
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:39 am



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 14):
Anyone ever sat between the engines?

I always sat in the back when my kids were little, that WA WA WA WA WA put them right to sleep, and most flight attendants go gaga over the little ones.
"Saddest thing I ever witnessed....an airplane being scrapped"
 
Viscount724
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:54 am



Quoting PGNCS (Reply 8):
The JT-8 powered 737's are horrendously noisy behind the wings, too. Like I have said many, many times, every airplane is a compromise and none are perfect in every area, though some come closer than others.

I agree. I always found the last few rows on all the types I've flown on with rear-mounted engines (DC-9, MD-80, 727, Fokker 28/70/100, Caravelle, BAC-111, VC-10) to be quieter than the last few rows of the 732, 707 and DC-8 where you got the effect of the jet blast. They were especially loud on takeoff.
 
KELPkid
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:07 am



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 18):


The MD-80 has N1/N2 sync.

I have a feeling that you can dispatch with the synchronizer inop then, as I have experienced non-synchronized engines in the Mad Dog  Smile
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
Max Q
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:17 am

The -80 has N1 / N2 synch but it takes a little care by the Pilots to operate properly, in cruise flight, first you synchronize the N1's, then turn on the synch, you must have the synchronization
exact before you activate the switch.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
LMP737
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:56 pm



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 21):
I have a feeling that you can dispatch with the synchronizer inop then, as I have experienced non-synchronized engines in the Mad Dog

Yes, it's an MEL item. Maybe that's AirWillie expereinced.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
jetstar
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:48 pm



Quoting RoseFlyer (Reply 6):
Rear mounted engines definitely have some weight and aero advantages. The 737 was originally studied to have rear mounted engines as well. However the original engines were not conducive to being tail mounted due to their size.

The B-727 uses the same engines as the B-737 100/200 series, the P&W JT8 engines so there would not have been any problem with the size of the engine, also both airplanes basically share the same diameter fuselage.

The only possibility I can think of that Boeing in deciding not to go with the T tail configuration in the B-737 then ran into problems with the engines in a rear mounted configuration would have affected the airflow over the conventionally mounted horizontal stabilizer so they went with the wing mounted engine .


I believe in today’s FAR Part 25 Air Transport Category certification requirements, you can not place the engines rotor burst area next to the passenger compartment or any pressurized area, that’s why the CRJ and ERJ engines are farther aft. This also applies to biz jets are well as long as they are certified under FAR 25.

All the MD series airplanes are certified under amendments to the original DC-9 type certificate, so they are not required to conform with the new requirements.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:29 am



Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 20):
last few rows of the 732, 707 and DC-8 where you got the effect of the jet blast

Funny you should mention that because I find the same situation exists on the 764 especially if the aircraft is very heavy (which they usually are these days). The cruise thrust settings are such that there is a noticible roar aft of the wing during cruise. I always revert to my headphones, but a long flight without them would not seem plesant to me.

As soon as power is reduced for descent it becomes very noticible how much roar exists.

As mentioned, the 731/732 has a lot of roar aft of the wings, but I don't recall that being an issue on the 707's or DC-8's while in cruise. I just remember it during take-off. The window panes would rattle in the last row of seats on a -61 or -63 at take-off power settings!
I much preferred sitting in front of the wing so I could hear those Pratts "singing" instead!

 bigthumbsup 
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:42 am



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 24):
All the MD series airplanes are certified under amendments to the original DC-9 type certificate, so they are not required to conform with the new requirements.

Indeed. The MD-81 to MD-87 are in fact DC-9-81, DC-9-82, DC-9-83 and DC-9-87. The later variants are MD-88, MD-90-30 (I think it is 30) and 717 but as you say grandfathered in.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
AA757MIA
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:21 am

I love those seats and the WAAAWAAAWAAAWAAWAAAH!!!  Smile
 
Viscount724
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:47 am



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 24):
The only possibility I can think of that Boeing in deciding not to go with the T tail configuration in the B-737 then ran into problems with the engines in a rear mounted configuration would have affected the airflow over the conventionally mounted horizontal stabilizer so they went with the wing mounted engine .

The T-tail and rear-mounted engine layout also results in a longer aircraft which may have implications for airport gate and hangar space etc. The shortest DC-9-10 is over 4 ft. longer than the 737-200 but the 737 accommodates several more rows of seats. The 727-200 is also a few inches longer than the 707-320. The 722 is also 15 ft. longer overall than the 737-900 but the 739 has a slightly longer passenger cabin.
 
PGNCS
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:04 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
The T-tail and rear-mounted engine layout also results in a longer aircraft which may have implications for airport gate and hangar space etc.
Yes, and the 737 has a taller tail, which won't fit in all the hangars the DC-9 will fit in...

You make an excellent point that every design has pros and cons, some of which are not obvious to anyone but industry professionals.

Again, every design is a compromise.

[Edited 2008-07-04 08:06:51]
 
PGNCS
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:11 pm



Quoting KELPkid (Reply 21):
The MD-80 has N1/N2 sync.

I have a feeling that you can dispatch with the synchronizer inop then, as I have experienced non-synchronized engines in the Mad Dog

Yes it does; some DC-9's have a sync indicator to aid in adjusting the throttles as well. The MD-80 synchronization system is generally good, but is frequently aided by turning the autothrottles off in cruise, which some people don't like to do. The system is not required for flight.
 
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TZTriStar500
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:03 pm



Quoting Jetstar (Reply 24):
I believe in today’s FAR Part 25 Air Transport Category certification requirements, you can not place the engines rotor burst area next to the passenger compartment or any pressurized area, that’s why the CRJ and ERJ engines are farther aft. This also applies to biz jets are well as long as they are certified under FAR 25.

All the MD series airplanes are certified under amendments to the original DC-9 type certificate, so they are not required to conform with the new requirements.

This is not correct. From FAR 25.903:

(d) Turbine engine installations. For turbine engine installations--
(1) Design precautions must be taken to minimize the hazards to the airplane in the event of an engine rotor failure or of a fire originating within the engine which burns through the engine case.
(2) The powerplant systems associated with engine control devices, systems, and instrumentation, must be designed to give reasonable assurance that those engine operating limitations that adversely affect turbine rotor structural integrity will not be exceeded in service.

Also, it is not entirely correct to say that the MD series is certified under an amendment to the DC-9 type certificate. Yes, they are all covered under the same type certificate A6WE, but the certification basis for the DC-9 series was certified under CAR 4b and the MD-80 and 717 is under FAR 25. Also, each model was required to comply with certain FAR 25 amendment levels effective at the time they were certified.
35 years of American Trans Air/ATA Airlines, 1973-2008. A great little airline that will not be soon forgotten.
 
SXDFC
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:29 am

Hey I remember seeing a "Fokker F-100NG" on the forms not to long ago, I wonder how quiet it will be sitting in the back of one of those  Wink.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
josekmlb
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Sat Jul 05, 2008 8:09 pm

I love the noise on the ramp but the most thing I liked is when we had to do an airstart with the air bottle not the huffer. Start number 1 or 2 with the bottle then crossbleed to get the other one started, thats when airstarts were fun and loud.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:10 am

My favorite seats are the ones as far forward as you can get.

When you go for T/O you can't even hear the engines. It feels like an invisible hand is shoving you down the runway.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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ebs757
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:03 am

I've sat next to the engines a few times non-reving on the S80... its certainly not fun but nothing really to complain about and least your getting there. The forward seats are remarkably quite on the S80 though, had 2A a few weeks ago
Viva la Vida
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:26 am



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
When you go for T/O you can't even hear the engines. It feels like an invisible hand is shoving you down the runway.

The invisible hand of either Mr. Pratt or Mr. Whitney. Big grin
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
ANITIX87
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Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2005 4:52 am

RE: MD80 Engine Placement

Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:25 pm



Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 25):
Funny you should mention that because I find the same situation exists on the 764 especially if the aircraft is very heavy (which they usually are these days). The cruise thrust settings are such that there is a noticible roar aft of the wing during cruise. I always revert to my headphones, but a long flight without them would not seem plesant to me.

I was, admittedly, right on the wing, but I went to the rear of the plane to use the lav and didn't notice any huge difference flying EWR-ZRH on the 764 a few weeks ago.

I thought the plane was loud wherever you were in the aircraft.

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