BAE146QT
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:58 am

Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:04 pm

I was reading one of the NTSB's AARs the other day*, and noted that a particular airframe had a number of cycles versus flight hours that would have given the aircraft an average flight duration of an hour or so. The bird was an MD-83.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but it was something like 17500 flight hours and 15000 cycles. That was for the fuselage, not the engines, (which in turn had some apparently really brief flights on them).

Does that seem reasonable for the type? If I looked up a 747, would I find that it might have 1000 cycles and 8000 flight hours for an average flight length of 8 hours?

Many thanks for any clarification on this.


* I'm not a ghoul, but you do learn so much from them about systems and practices.
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:08 pm



Quoting BAe146QT (Thread starter):

If you give me some minutes I'll check for some aircrafts on LH, some older 737s, some A300s and maybe some 744s or 343s...
Will be back soon with some info  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:23 pm

Ok, here we go.

Boeing 747-400: 101,730 hours and 13,424 cycles (older one)
Boeing 747-400: 35,067 hours and 4,196 cycles (newer one)

Boeing 737-300: 54,113 hours and 39,072 cycles
Boeing 737-300: 61,569 hours and 42,029 cycles

Airbus 340-300: 73,727 hours and 9,510 cycles (older one)
Airbus 340-300: 39,098 hours and 5,246 cycles (newer one)

Airbus 319-100: 37,984 hours and 23,724 cycles
Airbus 320-200: 54,394 hours and 36,856 cycles
Airbus 321-200: 1,717 hours and 875 cycles (newest one)

Airbus 300-600: 47,494 hours and 19,072 cycles

Airbus 340-600: 23,634 hours and 2,635 cycles (older one)
Airbus 340-600: 8,504 hours and 865 cycles (newer one)

I hope that gives you an idea.

I just picked random registrations to just pick an example.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
BAE146QT
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:58 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:35 pm

Indeed it does sir, and I am in your debt - I am always surprised at how people will go out of their way here to provide data. For what it's worth to you, welcome to my RU list.

So it looks like those MD-83s really do spend most of their time in short little shuttle flights, since the corresponding data for various-sized aircraft match the original observation, and the expectation of their mission. Huh. Maybe this could be used to prove that Americans aren't so cavalier with their oil. After all, imagine all of those 300-or-so mile journeys done in Buicks.

[Edited 2008-07-01 10:37:46]
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:36 pm



Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 3):
Indeed it does sir, and I am in your debt - I am always surprised at how people will go out of their way here to provide data. For what it's worth to you, welcome to my RR list.

I'm glad that I could help  Wink

Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 3):
So it looks like those MD-83s really do spend most of their time in short little shuttle flights,

Yupp, looks like, but they are short haul aircrafts and still spend a lot of time in the air. Our MD11Fs are about 14- 15 hours a day in the air. Which isn't too bad... During our high demand season (christmas etc) we reach nearly 17 hours in the air a day... busy bitch Big grin

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
BAE146QT
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:58 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:50 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 4):
I'm glad that I could help Wink

Well, you went out of your way for me and I appreciate that.

Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 4):

Yupp, looks like, but they are short haul aircrafts and still spend a lot of time in the air.

Maybe it should have been obvious to me, since they are the sort of aircraft designed for city hopping. It's just that I don't experience that sort of travel very often so it didn't look right.
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:52 pm



Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 5):
Maybe it should have been obvious to me, since they are the sort of aircraft designed for city hopping. It's just that I don't experience that sort of travel very often so it didn't look right.

That's why LH is in trouble with their A300. They were build for medium haul flights and now they are mostly flying: FRA-HAM or FRA-MUC, FRA-TXL, so pretty short hops. These A300 are far away from their hour limit certified by Airbus, BUT they are close to their cycle limit... Because the aircraft wasn't built for so many short haul flights.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airlane 
 
BAE146QT
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:58 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:02 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 6):
These A300 are far away from their hour limit certified by Airbus, BUT they are close to their cycle limit... Because the aircraft wasn't built for so many short haul flights.

Looks like they might become expensive in the long term then. Either that, or someone is going to get a bargain until they have to pay for a C check!
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:03 pm



Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 7):
Looks like they might become expensive in the long term then. Either that, or someone is going to get a bargain until they have to pay for a C check!

We'll see what replacement there will be in the future  Wink But the flights between HAM and MUC and TXL and FRA are usually pretty full in the A300. Unbelievable  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
metroliner
Posts: 847
Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 4:35 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:11 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 8):
Unbelievable

I agree, I got a ride on two LH A300s, from HAM-FRA and then from FRA-LHR, and it was packed 80%+ on both legs. I was pretty impressed with them...

Toni  Smile

P.s. WILCO737, Sie haben Post...  Smile
Set the controls for the heart of the Sun
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:21 pm



Quoting Metroliner (Reply 9):
I agree, I got a ride on two LH A300s, from HAM-FRA and then from FRA-LHR, and it was packed 80%+ on both legs. I was pretty impressed with them...

Yeah, I spent several flights on the jumpseat because the filght was overbooked on the flight HAM-FRA-HAM... pretty impressive.

Quoting Metroliner (Reply 9):
P.s. WILCO737, Sie haben Post... Smile

And already replied to it  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Cycles

Tue Jul 01, 2008 6:39 pm



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 6):
That's why LH is in trouble with their A300. They were build for medium haul flights and now they are mostly flying: FRA-HAM or FRA-MUC, FRA-TXL, so pretty short hops. These A300 are far away from their hour limit certified by Airbus, BUT they are close to their cycle limit... Because the aircraft wasn't built for so many short haul flights.

Hey, American in the lat 1980's/early 1990's was abusing DC-10's (10-10 models?) by flying them on intra-Texas flights. ELP-DFW, SAT-DFW were the two that I was aware of...when the US Air Force sent me to Lackland AFB for my field training, I was suprised to find the plane waiting at the gate in DFW to be a DC-10. The flight lasted 40 minutes.
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17053
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Cycles

Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:48 am

Well, out here in the far east many of the long haulers are hardly taxed for range. The extreme example is the 747-400D which flies intra-Japan. But even 4-5 hour flights like HKG-DPS or HKG-SIN are operated by 747s, 777s and 330s.

Less frequency, more pax/flight.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18834
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Cycles

Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:43 am



Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 5):
Maybe it should have been obvious to me, since they are the sort of aircraft designed for city hopping. It's just that I don't experience that sort of travel very often so it didn't look right.

Following reply to an earlier thread in March this year re older aircraft. The last two columns (following the delivery date) show the cycles and hours (in that order) of the last NW DC-9-10s at the time they were retired to the desert a couple of years ago. Most had pretty close to 100,000 hours with an average flight time of not much over one hour during 40 years in service. All except the last one were originally delivered to Eastern Airlines. The last one begain life with Swissair.

Here is the info on the remaining -10 aircraft and they are all parked/stored...

N8915E 08/02/1967 87361 95413
N8912E 30/11/1966 86139 92148
N8913E 23/12/1966 86088 93482
N8914E 29/12/1966 87211 93265
N8908E 11/09/1966 87196 95006
N8909E 07/11/1966 84570 91395
N8911E 24/11/1966 85572 92360
N9348 26/06/1967 76976 89631
 
KELPkid
Posts: 5247
Joined: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:33 am

RE: Cycles

Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:08 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):

Well, out here in the far east many of the long haulers are hardly taxed for range. The extreme example is the 747-400D which flies intra-Japan. But even 4-5 hour flights like HKG-DPS or HKG-SIN are operated by 747s, 777s and 330s.

Less frequency, more pax/flight.

Indeed. My first 777 flight was on SQ, SIN-PEN, a one hour flight  Smile
Celebrating the birth of KELPkidJR on August 5, 2009 :-)
 
brons2
Posts: 2462
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 1:02 pm

RE: Cycles

Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:23 am



Quoting WILCO737 (Reply 2):

Boeing 747-400: 101,730 hours and 13,424 cycles (older one)
Boeing 747-400: 35,067 hours and 4,196 cycles (newer one)

Is this the highest hour 744 that LH has? 101,730 hours is a lot, and it probably won't be retired until the 748 arrives.

Also interesting to see there is an A346 with over 23,000 hours already.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 11762
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Cycles

Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:01 am



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
The extreme example is the 747-400D which flies intra-Japan.

The -400D was specifically designed for that market, though, was it not? I mean, I assume they didn't make TOO many changes, but no winglets, and whatever else...
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17053
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Cycles

Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:10 am



Quoting Vikkyvik (Reply 16):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 12):
The extreme example is the 747-400D which flies intra-Japan.

The -400D was specifically designed for that market, though, was it not? I mean, I assume they didn't make TOO many changes, but no winglets, and whatever else...

Of course you are correct. The 400D is a case where the product was actually adapted to market conditions. But it is still symptomatic of the high density short to medium haul routes abundant in the Far East.

Quoting Brons2 (Reply 15):
Is this the highest hour 744 that LH has? 101,730 hours is a lot, and it probably won't be retired until the 748 arrives.

"A lot" how? Well maintained this aircraft can keep flying indefinitely.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Cycles

Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:58 am



Quoting Brons2 (Reply 15):
Is this the highest hour 744 that LH has? 101,730 hours is a lot, and it probably won't be retired until the 748 arrives.

Yes, this is the oldest 744 we have in the fleet... Quite impressive number of hours, eh?  Wink

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 
 
BAE146QT
Posts: 981
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2006 4:58 am

RE: Cycles

Wed Jul 02, 2008 4:15 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 17):
"A lot" how? Well maintained this aircraft can keep flying indefinitely.

Although that's true in the literal sense, you know that in terms of financial practicality it is unlikely. I seem to remember a conversation here where it was agreed that the limiting factor would be something like (for example) the maximum service life of the main spar...

Incidentally, many thanks to those who have come up with additional data for this thread. The DC-10 stuff in particular was extremely surprising to an outsider like me.
Todos mis dominós son totalmente pegajosos
 
Bravo1Six
Posts: 56
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:03 pm

RE: Cycles

Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:11 am



Quoting BAe146QT (Reply 3):
So it looks like those MD-83s really do spend most of their time in short little shuttle flights,

That's also the primary reason why RJs "age" a lot quicker than their mainline cousins.
 
tf39
Posts: 81
Joined: Thu Jul 20, 2006 12:43 am

RE: Cycles

Sun Jul 06, 2008 2:16 am

Hi WILCO737 - do you know if LH will be converting any of their 744 into freighters? Thanks  Smile
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Cycles

Sun Jul 06, 2008 7:40 am



Quoting TF39 (Reply 21):
Hi WILCO737 - do you know if LH will be converting any of their 744 into freighters? Thanks Smile

Simple answer: no, I don't know. And last time I talked to the Chief Pilot: there are no plans to add anything to the fleet at all or to sell MD11Fs and get something else. The MD11Fs contracts last until 2012 and until then we'll fly them.

WILCO737 (Md11F)
 airplane 
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17053
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Cycles

Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:18 am

I recall reading that LH wanted more MD-11Fs but Boeing was putting on the brakes because they wanted to shut the line down. LH seems to love that aircraft.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
wilco737
Posts: 7279
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: Cycles

Sun Jul 06, 2008 12:18 pm



Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 23):
I recall reading that LH wanted more MD-11Fs but Boeing was putting on the brakes because they wanted to shut the line down. LH seems to love that aircraft.

From what I've been told by the Chief Pilot: we are happy with these 19 MD11Fs.
Our problem is: Not enough First Officers.
I guess there were routes where we can use the MD11Fs and make some money.

WILCO737 (MD11F)
 airplane 

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests